Teaching the new guy about scopes, and a few other things along the way.

[Brad09]

So, in my quest to learn all things hunting, I started a conversation earlier about rifles and calibers. Right now, I'm leaning toward a .270 Winchester, and am looking hard at Browning A-Bolt and Tikka T3 rifles, as both are available left-handed, with synthetic stocks and stainless barrels, and both fit my price range. This will be my first rifle. Please comment on this if you have personal experience with either rifle, or if you can recommend another similar rifle that you personally support.

My main goal, here, however, is to learn about scopes. Here is a list of what (I think) I know about scopes. Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

A 3-9x40 scope refers to adjustable zoom from three to nine times, with a forty millimeter objective lens. A larger objective lens is important when it comes to farther zoom as larger lenses allow for greater light-gathering, therefore better vision. FOV is short for Field of View, which is the distance in feet that you can see in your scope, measured from 100yds. Eye relief is the distance that your eye sits from the scope for proper viewing.

However, I have a few questions. Firstly, with an adjustable zoom scope, say the 3-9x40 in my previous example, am I limited to viewing at 3x and 9x magnification, or can the scope be adjusted to 4x, 4.5x, 5x, etc.? Also, the crosshairs on your scope, is there one that comes with higher recommendation for a beginner(I've never fired a scoped rifle), or is this just a matter of personal preference?

Secondly, the mounting of a scope. Is it standard to mount your scope yourself(as a green beginner), or is this better left in the hands of an experienced pro? Does your style of rifle limit your selection of scopes, or are all scopes adaptable to all rifles with a minimum of additional adapters? Should you purchase mounting hardware from the same manufacturer as your scope, or rifle, or is this entirely irrelevant?

And I'm curious about brands. I hear a lot about Leupold, and several people seem to use them. Apparently, these are great scopes, and the warranty is second to none. What makes a Leupold scope better than something made by Tasco or Burris or Bushnell or other manufacturers?

Now, I'm looking at centering my hunting around wooded lots west of Red Deer, and perhaps the occasional jaunt out to the Suffield area, where things are a lot more open. Should I have two scopes for the different environments, or is one adjustable scope good enough for both? Should my target game(white-tailed/mule deer initially, then hopefully elk and maybe pronghorn one day) affect my decision when it comes to my scope purchase, and if so, how?

And finally, the question I'm sure will be subject to much debate over personal preference: If I was your hunting companion, and I said to you that I was planning on spending up to $900 on a scope, and blindly asked you to pick one out of a showcase for me, what would be your best recommendation?

I'm also curious about ammunition. Having mentioned my likely caliber, rifle, environment, and game, I expect that I'm looking at something in the 130-grain category. But Hornady and Remington and Winchester and Federal all shoot differently. Does it matter what your pick is, or is it more important that you pick a specific type of bullet and shoot that brand/style/weight exclusively? I'm not looking to become a pro target shooter or anything, I'd just like to bag some deer for my table. However, I'd like to do it properly, in an ethical, professional manner.

Any responses you can offer are appreciated.

Brad

[jasonburrows]

a 3-9x40 would be perfect for a 270, yes the magnification adjustments can be made 3 through 9, DO NOT mount the scope yourself, when you buy the gun get them to install the scope and BORESIGHT it for you, this means it will be reletively close, hit the paper target at 50 yards or so, you need to sight in for the 50 yards then move target out to 100 yards and do some shooting and adjust the scope till your shooting 1-2'' high at 100 yards, will put you on at 200 yards, dont shoot your first deer past 200 yards at the most. No you dont need 2 scopes for different scenarios on the same rifle. As far as quality I wouldnt spend that much on first scope a Bushnell 3200 elite is a good scope for about $400 I think. As far as ammo just pick one brand and shoot the same for all your practice, you wont notice much difference when shooting under 200 yards, its when you get out to 300, 400, 500 that you really need to know a thing or 2 about ballistics and different ammo. Just resist the temptation to shoot past 200 yards for now till you feel comfortable with your setup and put a few hundred PRACTICE rounds through it. Instead of buying the 900 first scope buy a $400 scope and a range finder, practice judging distance. I Have a Tikka T3 in 270 WSM and am very happy with it. GOOD LUCK hopefully you know someone that can help you sight in. Make sure to get into a hunter safety course!!!

[Dick284]

Dont cheap out on optics. Expect to pay anywhere from 75% of the rifles new purchase price or MORE on optics, anything less and your gonna end up spending more in the long run.

The same goes for mounts, I've shyed away from the STD stlye Leupold rings and bases after seeing the rear rings on about 5 or 6 set ups move, come loose, or tighten up out of skew.

Weaver bases and Weaver Grand Slam rings(Not detachable top mounts) get my nod now, for a cost effectiove solution, the better mounts like Tally are a no brainer.

Go pick up a Leupold owners manual, and see how to mount and boresight your own scope.

Boresighting is only as good as the nut behind the bolt, some riles will not bore sight worth a pinch, for very un known reasons, bult seem to shoot ok.

1 shot at 25 yds adjusted to dead center.
Then move to 100 yds and you should be close to where you want to be in 3 shots.

Dont forget a good rest, not one of those glorified cleaning rigs either, get a good front rest and a good rear bag, talk to guys who know how things are done, and PRACTICE PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Good luck

[Leverboy]

Dick has hit the nail on the head. Don't cheap out on glass. This year i am shooting a Savage in .30-06 i picked up for under 400.00. A cheap no frills, blind mag long action with a tupperware stock that shoots 1/2" MOA. The glass i bought is a Leupold in the VX III series that ran me almost 500.00 bones. While the scope is more expensive than the gun, it totally turns this package into a very nice hunting combo and very reliable. Glass is a huge thing not to overlook.

[Brad09]

Now while I was expecting a response along the lines of what Dick has posted, the problem I'm encountering here is that he's using a lot of terminology I plain don't undersatnd. I'm definitely not interested in being cheap when it comes to a scope, but my problem is that I don't understand a lot of what he said as far as Weavers and Grand Slams and cleaning rigs, etc. While I appreciate the attempt, can we dumb down the terms for my sake?

Brad

[whitetailhntr]

buy a leupold.I would be glad to take you to the range and show you a thing or 2 and explain some of these terms with some show and tell if you like send me a pm and we can set something up......likely after hunting season.
again do yourself a favor and buy a leupold, you will save money in the end. take it from someone who has bought 3 not bad scopes instead of one good scope.the price of 3 is half of one good one.buy it once and be done with it and save some money to boot.

[JCP]

when others are talking about weaver and grandslam rigns and bases they are simply talking about the "stuff" that holds the scope onto the rifle. Just google scope rings and bases... The internet is a wonderful thing. But as everyone has said don't cheap out on glass. Scopes,binoculars,spotting scopes, etc are all things that fall into the category that " you get what you pay for". Bushnell elite series scopes are getting more popular witht he new 6500 series being very good from what I have read but you can't go wrong with a leupold. As far as the rifle I have 2 buddies that shot .270 in the Tikka T3 and love them. They both shoot nothing but federal fusion bullets and get great results from them. If you are looking at buying the rifle and scope new, I'm sure who ever you buy it from will mount and bore sight it for you for nothing or atleast not very much money. Get it bore sighted it will save you some time. Good luck and Happy hunting. Play safe.

[smurph]

My only comment is about the availability of the Tikka rifle. I just mail ordered the last Tikka T3 Lite in .270 that I could find in Alberta. I guess Tikka/Sako has refused the last order of steel and many vendors have been waiting and waiting for stock to arrive. I think it's a great caliber with many options. I originally was going 6.5 swedish as i've had experience with it but decided a little more firepower and options was worth the extra recoil. Anyway... I think you'd do great to meet up with someone experienced in this fun game and go to the range one evening - and hopefully BEFORE the season ends .

S

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Now while I was expecting a response along the lines of what Dick has posted, the problem I'm encountering here is that he's using a lot of terminology I plain don't undersatnd. I'm definitely not interested in being cheap when it comes to a scope, but my problem is that I don't understand a lot of what he said as far as Weavers and Grand Slams and cleaning rigs, etc. While I appreciate the attempt, can we dumb down the terms for my sake?

Brad

High quality optics you will never outgrow. Buy the best you can possibly afford.
Scope mounts and rings are what hold the scope to the rifle, I am not being a smart ass here, so bear with me. Cheap rings and bases will allow the scope to move independently from the rifle, making accuracy poorer.
Having your scope mounted rock solid to the rifle is what you are wanting to achieve.
Weaver is a maker of rings and bases, the Grand Slam rings is Weavers attempt at better quality rings. They are Ok , I prefer Leupolds PRW style ring for inexpensive rings, but like the Grand Slams they have a decent locking set up.
Not as structural as a good Picatinny rail and rings , but for most hunting applications are fine.

As for scopes.
Not always is a bigger objective better. In cheap optics bigger is better as light transmission is far less in cheap lens's than in high quality 1s.
The light gathering of a bushnel 40mm objective pales when compared to a Nightforce or Swarovski brand scope with a 28mm objective lens with the same magnification levels.

Buying a Tikka rifle will limit you in the number of options for scope mounting. Tikka makes a base and ring set up specificaly for their rifles, they are not cheap, but they do work very well. Browning have less options in scope mounting than Tikka, so you will be forced to buy what I consider "run of the mill" mounts.

Opinions on caliber choices are like armpits, everyone has a couple, the best suggestion I can give you there is spend so time hanging around a gun club.
Most guys are willing to let others "have a go" with their rifle if interest is expressed. Buying something and finding you don't like it for whatever reason can get costly, make use of the resources that most gun owners are willing to share.

[Brad09]

I certainly appreciate your expertise, ATR.

Here's the deal. Just like every other hunter out there, my interest lies in killing an animal. For my purposes, I intend to eat it. Because I saw Bambi when I was little, I don't want that animal to suffer. Therefore, my mission is to learn to shoot as accurately as I can. I understand that the biggest part of this is myself and my ability to handle a rifle. However, I'm sure that even the most stable shooters with the best ammunition and rifles are far less accurate with bad scopes or crappy mountings. Therefore, if Browning or Tikka limits my selection to run-of-the-mill scopes or is going to require non-stop adjustment to work properly, clearly my interests should go elsewhere. Could you make a recommendation?

I will check into local gun groups to see if I can test-fire some rifles. However, a large problem there is that I am left-handed, and I think that there will be fewer rifles for me to make use of. Could you recommend groups in the Calgary area.

Brad

[cujo1969]

Canadian tire on mcleod tr has the burris fullfield scopes on for $209 which is a good deal. They will beat wholesale on bigger items in price.

[jasonburrows]

Everyone should learn to shoot with a light rifle and open sights, who out there bought a $2000 setup for their first gun?, graduate to a scoped rifle after learning to shoot. Everyone remember when they were kids plinking cans and killing squirrels with a 22, this is where learning to shoot should begin, don't mean to be an ass Ryan, but you should learn to safely handle a weapon before making the leap to an expensive outfit, just like the new golfer buying a $1500 set of clubs thinking it will help his game, it won't, you gotta learn the basics, you guys are getting carried away with all this advice just confusing him, just me $00.02, OUT.

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by Brad09

I certainly appreciate your expertise, ATR.

Here's the deal. Just like every other hunter out there, my interest lies in killing an animal. For my purposes, I intend to eat it. Because I saw Bambi when I was little, I don't want that animal to suffer. Therefore, my mission is to learn to shoot as accurately as I can. I understand that the biggest part of this is myself and my ability to handle a rifle. However, I'm sure that even the most stable shooters with the best ammunition and rifles are far less accurate with bad scopes or crappy mountings. Therefore, if Browning or Tikka limits my selection to run-of-the-mill scopes or is going to require non-stop adjustment to work properly, clearly my interests should go elsewhere. Could you make a recommendation?

I will check into local gun groups to see if I can test-fire some rifles. However, a large problem there is that I am left-handed, and I think that there will be fewer rifles for me to make use of. Could you recommend groups in the Calgary area.

Brad

Brad Your attitude towards the ethics of hunting is very positive and I really like to see someone looking for help and options when new to any venture.
The limits of options for the Browning and Tikka rifles I mentioned were only referring to the mounts, not the scopes. The styles of mounts and rings availabe for either irlfe will allow for the use of virtually any scope.

Judging from your original post your product knowledge of firearms and related parts is quite limited, which is fine, we all started there at some point.

Being left handed will certainly limit your selection to a point in what is available in rifles.
Are you dead set on a 270? The reason I ask, is in your post you mention your mission to become very proficient with your rifle so as to humanely kill animals. Practice is the only way to become proficient, there are 3 ways to get in alot of practice yet not break the bank.
1 way is to buy a rifle that is affordable to shoot due to the caliber, the other way is to buy a 22LR rifle and practice with it alot and then shoot the centerfire 1 as much as you can afford.
Eye/hand muscle memory training, breathing control and learning to create stable shooting positions are learned just as well with a rimfire as a centerfire rifle, just much cheaper to shoot as 22 ammo is very inexpensive.
Shooting 22LR out to 200 yards is closely mimicing what the trajectory of many centerfire rifle will do out to 1000 yards, and you get cheap triggertime.

Another method is to buy reloading equipment and make your own ammo, typically reloading is 50% less expensive than shooting factory ammo. The cost of getting set up to reload is nearly what a rifles cost is however.

The other method is to buy a rifle in a caliber that is cost effective to shoot.
308 would be a logical choice there as surplus ammo is available for far less $$ than what you can buy 270 ammo for, so you can practice alot more for less money and it is a legal hunting caliber here, that has the same effectiveness out to 700 yards as the 270 does, which at this point I think is considerably further than you should be thinking of shooting game at.

Remington builds a 308 left handed rifle that sells for about $650.00, it is not stainless, but that really is not a big deal, assuming you plan to treat your rifle like a rifle should be, it has a better quality synthetic stock than the Tikka or Browning does, and the other benefits are that the trigger is a far better design so can be tuned down to improve how you shoot the rifle, the options for scope mounting are endless and the potential for upgrading the rifle as your skill level improves is unlimited.

My partner is lefthanded and I know that if you wanted to spend some range time with us, we could give you a crash course in rifleology, that would give you alot to consider, and very probably help you in your quest.

[Brad09]

ATR,

When looking at rifles, scopes, etc. online with my limited knowledge, I'm glad I can ask questions and get professional answers. Judging by your screen name and your attitude, I'm going to go ahead and assume you're in the business. Therefore, you can probably help me here.

Firstly, as far as me looking for a .270, here's my logic. In my initial search for a rifle, I discovered that three ideal starting calibers for a big-game rifle was a 30-06 Springfield, and the .270 and .308 Winchester. Now, one of the main ones recommended was a 30-06. My understanding of this caliber is that it is a good all-round general-purpose round, capable of hunting 99% of game in North America. The .270 came with the recommendation that it was a great deer rifle, flatter trajectory than the 30-06, and had the ability to graduate to elk and black bear with experience. And the general consensus on the .308 was that it is of slower velocity, and that it was generally more geared to heavy brush hunting and larger game. However, it seems from reading on this site that this is a matter of opinion. So no, I'm certainly not set in stone on any one caliber, at least not until I test a wide variety of rounds and see how I react to different levels of recoil and see for myself how I feel about any one gun and caliber.

I'm interested in the Remington that you mentioned. Could you share the model name and a potential retailer in the Calgary area? It's definitely worth a look. And I absolutely intend to take the best care I possibly can of any rifle I own, but my understanding of stainless/synthetic weapons is that they weather better, should I be out in the bush during extreme conditions.

As far as the comment from Mr. Burrows about not starting with a $2000.00 setup, this is my line of thought. When I start doing something, it is my plan to do that, whatever it may be, to the best of my ability, and not skimping on good equipment. No, I certainly don't expect a better or more expensive rifle or scope to make me shoot better. However, I think that it is a more logical and cost-effective solution to buy a better-quality weapon and use it, rather than shoot for one or two years with an entry-level rifle and wish to upgrade.

So again, thank you to everyone who offered their two cents, I certainly appreciate the range of opinions, and the knowledge everyone is willing to share. As far as all of the invitations I have received to make it out to the range, I thank everyone for the offers, and perhaps I'll look that up in the future. For the time being, I'll keep my shooting to supervised ranges with the pros, so that I can continue to further my knowledge of basic rifle handling. But then again, none of us are going anywhere. Hopefully in the future, I'll be able to hunt with some of you guys.

[MK2750]

ATR I aggree with your rifle choice 100%. After looking at all the options I thought the 700 was a no brainer for my son who is also a lefty. I went with a BDL in 30-06 for all the reasoned you metioned.

You guys have lost me on this attitude of more money for optics then rifle. The vast majority of hunters are not capable of out shooting 200 dollar optics.

Obviously we identify our game as shootable with field glasses and our eyes. If we limit our shooting times to legal light and keep our distances to within reason I see no reason to break the bank on optics.

I have a 1.5 to 6 Bausch and Lomb Elite 4000 that I paid 300 or so for. It is crystal clear and has held zero for ten years. I am confident to 300 yards which is much less then this rig is capable.

I just put a Bushnell Trophy on my sons rifle that I am every bit as confident.

Where I was raised folk just didn't have the cash for high quality optics. Some had no scope and the others were all under 200 dollars. They had no problems killing deer.

Under field conditions the average weekend hunter is very lucky to shoot 4" groups anywhere over 150 yards if there is game involved.

Saying the best quality optics or even as much as you possiably afford is not the best advice for every shooter.

I would love to have 1500 dollars or more in optics but it is way down on my priority list and certainly a want not a need.

Just my 2 cents,
MK

[Solothurn]

Brad you assume correctly. I can not say much more without getting into a conflict with the forum rules.
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