Gasoline price jump???

[Little red riding hood]

Originally Posted by Slicktricker

I don't get bitching about gas
It's up 44 cents a litre since I started driving, milk is over a dollar more a litre since same year, beer is almost double from same year. Don't hear anyone bitching about it

Buy a cow, save money on milk.
Buy a home brewing kit, save on beer
An oilwell and refinery is out of most of our budget (except ken)

[Red Bullets]

They say history repeats itself. When gasoline was still new in the west and used to power horseless carriages & early motors, around 105 years ago, gasoline prices were equivalent to today's prices. People didn't drive motorized vehicles more than they had too. During the depression from 1929 to 1939 very few could afford gasoline. They took the motors and windows out of the cars/trucks and hooked their vehicles to teams of horses, oxen or mules. Then and now photos.

If history does repeat itself will there be the modern versions of the depression era Bennett buggy or Hoover buggy?.... The Trudeau buggy and the Trump buggy. Yikes!

[The Cook]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

It’s also shutdown season. Just spent almost a month on the road between Syncrude and Suncor’s Edmonton refinery getting things started. Happens every year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks TreeGuy, I knew there would be a knowledgeable explanation, not being in the O&G industry and not being a long weekend, I kind of wondered.

[CBintheNorth]

Here's my beef with petroleum prices since the fall of crude prices-
When reg. petroleum was $1.21 back in 2012 or so, they said it was because oil was over $120/ bbl. That made sense as anyone and everyone knows that oil is needed for gasoline production.
When oil was below $40/bbl and gasoline was near $1.00, Esso, Shell, and PetroCan all said that the price of oil had nothing to do with the price of petroleum.
Sounds like collusion to me? And lies...
Just wait till oil hits $70+/bbl and they say that the reason gasoline is over $1.50/L is because of the high price of oil.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Little red riding hood

Buy a cow, save money on milk.
Buy a home brewing kit, save on beer
An oilwell and refinery is out of most of our budget (except ken)

lol I can't even afford a beer!!!

[Skoaltender]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Here's my beef with petroleum prices since the fall of crude prices-
When reg. petroleum was $1.21 back in 2012 or so, they said it was because oil was over $120/ bbl. That made sense as anyone and everyone knows that oil is needed for gasoline production.
When oil was below $40/bbl and gasoline was near $1.00, Esso, Shell, and PetroCan all said that the price of oil had nothing to do with the price of petroleum.
Sounds like collusion to me? And lies...
Just wait till oil hits $70+/bbl and they say that the reason gasoline is over $1.50/L is because of the high price of oil.

I’d guess $1.50 would be on the low side. $2/L gasoline is in our near future (5years). Carbon tax or similar taxes on fossil fuels aren’t going away regardless of which political party is in power and they are only going to get worse.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Here's my beef with petroleum prices since the fall of crude prices-
When reg. petroleum was $1.21 back in 2012 or so, they said it was because oil was over $120/ bbl. That made sense as anyone and everyone knows that oil is needed for gasoline production.
When oil was below $40/bbl and gasoline was near $1.00, Esso, Shell, and PetroCan all said that the price of oil had nothing to do with the price of petroleum.
Sounds like collusion to me? And lies...
Just wait till oil hits $70+/bbl and they say that the reason gasoline is over $1.50/L is because of the high price of oil.

You don't understand what collusion is apparently. It is when companies talk openly about agreeing to jointly set prices on what they buy or sell.

It is criminal. One would go to jail. It had been probed many times before and found that companies are highly competitive and react quickly.

If company A raises or drops their price...company B can see the sign change and make their decision what to do. That is not collusion.

Gasoline is a fraction of what a barrel of oil makes. In a commodity based market the refinerers look to see what product has the most profit. Then supply and demand falls over that and adds increased adjustments.

In turn all companies need to make a profit as we all know they should.

In turn people may complain about prices and never ever find a company making an unfair profit. Why is their none?

Because if there are crazy profits to be made then someone would increase production which would bring down the price.

Supply and demand.

[79ford]

Petro can and esso brought a bunch of stuff down for maintenance in the last week or so.

Thats a good bite into supply.

[troutbug]

Originally Posted by little red riding hood

buy a cow, save money on milk.
Buy a home brewing kit, save on beer
an oilwell and refinery is out of most of our budget (except ken)

lol

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Here's my beef with petroleum prices since the fall of crude prices-
When reg. petroleum was $1.21 back in 2012 or so, they said it was because oil was over $120/ bbl. That made sense as anyone and everyone knows that oil is needed for gasoline production.
When oil was below $40/bbl and gasoline was near $1.00, Esso, Shell, and PetroCan all said that the price of oil had nothing to do with the price of petroleum.
Sounds like collusion to me? And lies...
Just wait till oil hits $70+/bbl and they say that the reason gasoline is over $1.50/L is because of the high price of oil.

Midstream guys have been raking it in over the past few years.

Apply that same logic to Natural Gas right now. Thats whats really criminal. Upstream producers have litterly had to pay to get into TCPL at times this year. Last I heard was 90c a GJ for most of Alberta producers. I have yet to see a winter that my bills were lower.

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You don't understand what collusion is apparently. It is when companies talk openly about agreeing to jointly set prices on what they buy or sell.

It is criminal. One would go to jail. It had been probed many times before and found that companies are highly competitive and react quickly.

If company A raises or drops their price...company B can see the sign change and make their decision what to do. That is not collusion.

Gasoline is a fraction of what a barrel of oil makes. In a commodity based market the refinerers look to see what product has the most profit. Then supply and demand falls over that and adds increased adjustments.

In turn all companies need to make a profit as we all know they should.

In turn people may complain about prices and never ever find a company making an unfair profit. Why is their none?

Because if there are crazy profits to be made then someone would increase production which would bring down the price.

Supply and demand.

Imo I think you're really naive to think that it's only the rules of supply and demand controlling hydrocarbon pricing. Producers are giving natural gas away right now while it price remains the same out your home.

[Talking moose]

I can honestly say that the price of fuel has never dictated my decision to go anywhere.....”ready to go fishing in the morning Bill?”...” well I was gonna go but gas just jumped from 1.19 to 1.29 so I can’t go anymore”

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I can honestly say that the price of fuel has never dictated my decision to go anywhere.....”ready to go fishing in the morning Bill?”...” well I was gonna go but gas just jumped from 1.19 to 1.29 so I can’t go anymore”

Well that's good for you, I personally know a guy that has curtailed hunting and fishing because of the jump from a buck to 1.29. For someone that was struggling to get out it is now out of reach.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Well that's good for you, I personally know a guy that has curtailed hunting and fishing because of the jump from a buck to 1.29. For someone that was struggling to get out it is now out of reach.

A buck to a buck thirty is I hefty jump. 200% more than my example.

[79ford]

You got to think how miserable our dollar is right now too....80 cent dollar and 64$ oil vs par and 100ish dollar oil. Add in some carbon taxes to the gasoline and you pretty much get the same overall price of gasoline relative to oil.

After 2018 canada goes to ultralow sulfer motor gas which is probably another 5-10 cents per liter in manufacturing and additive costs.


Enjoy the cheap gasoline while you can. If enough pipeline capapcity gets put in you will see the prairie gasoline discount vanish some what as well. Lots of times refiners can get a decent deal on oil that may normally be railed since a producer can get a better price selling locally at a discount vs discounting to attract a customer on the rail line. Pull that local discount and you will see feed stock rise locally.


I think gasoline is a pretty good value proposition.... crude oil has almost double in the last year or so yet gasoline is still a meager 20-25% more.

Gasoline is slightly more expensive because refiners have to secure outside supply for their customers when they arent producing during maintenance outages...they pretty much have to fight to get supply out of other jurisdictions rail it to alberta then unload it then reload it to truck vs loading straight out the tank to your delivery options.

Really quite a stinky deal for the refiner, the free market option would be fill the tanks and let everyone bid while the plants capacity is reduced and who ever isnt in shutdown could just rip everyone off like there is no tommorow.

I think between the government and companies there is some method to keep fuel flowing. Co op regina, petrocan, and esso all have some hefty units down from what i know. If the market wasnt some what maintained in an orderly organized way there would be utter chaos right now.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by Slicktricker

I don't get bitching about gas
It's up 44 cents a litre since I started driving, milk is over a dollar more a litre since same year, beer is almost double from same year. Don't hear anyone bitching about it

When I started driving gas was.17/litre, beer was 4.00 a dozen, and milk was .25/litre IIRC.

BW

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

A buck to a buck thirty is I hefty jump. 200% more than my example.

My point was it increased from under a buck to what it is now in less than three years. Way beyond the rest of the cost of living increases.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Little red riding hood

Buy a cow, save money on milk.
Buy a home brewing kit, save on beer
An oilwell and refinery is out of most of our budget (except ken)

False argument.

There are plenty of ways to invest in oil and gas for anyone who thinks too many profits are being made.

There even small investment groups that allow investment in specifiv wells.

There are mutual funds entirely oil and gas.

Or go with service companies.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Imo I think you're really naive to think that it's only the rules of supply and demand controlling hydrocarbon pricing. Producers are giving natural gas away right now while it price remains the same out your home.

Your missing facts and living on rumour.

Many companies are hedged. Being on only AECO pricing means often shutting in.

You seem to believe all natural gas is sold into AECO. Wrong.

You seem to being your natural gas supplier is buying on AECO. Wrong.

Buyers hedge also.

Your natural gas supplier makes money on transmission charges.

[pistolero1860]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I can honestly say that the price of fuel has never dictated my decision to go anywhere.....”ready to go fishing in the morning Bill?”...” well I was gonna go but gas just jumped from 1.19 to 1.29 so I can’t go anymore”

I used to look at it that way, when I was younger and earning good money.
However, now that I'm retired, everything is judged by the question:
"Can I afford it on my budget?"

Food, clothing, entertainment, ammunition for shooting, gas to the range, gas for a trip to Calgary or Drumheller (or wherever) has to be balanced.
Since gas has risen in the last couple of months from 99 cents a liter to $1.26 a liter, that represents a 25% increase in my fuel costs. Not a small thing on a fixed income.

I can't help but wonder whether those who seem to be in favor of increased fuel prices (even when the price of a barrel of oil doesn't reflect it) have a vested interest in seeing prices rise.

Employment prospects, higher wages, or something else?

[Talking moose]

Over the last 30 years let’s say.... has gas prices risen more than other products that consumers buy? I can’t remember myself. I’ll do some research, kinda curious.

[Talking moose]

Average Cost Of New Home Homes
1930 $3,845.00 , 1940 $3,920.00, 1950 $8,450.00 , 1960 $12,700.00 ,
1970 $23,450.00 , 1980 $68,700.00 , 1990 $123,000.00 , 2008 $238,880 , 2013 $289,500 ,
Average Wages
1930 $1,970.00 , 1940 $1,725.00, 1950 $3,210.00 , 1960 $5,315.00 ,
1970 $9,400.00 , 1980 $19,500.00 , 1990 $28,960.00 , 2008 $40,523 , 2012 $44,321 ,
Average Cost of New Car Cars
1930 $600.00 , 1940 $850.00, 1950 $1,510.00 , 1960 $2,600.00 ,
1970 $3,450.00 , 1980 $7,200.00 , 1990 $16,950.00 , 2008 $27,958 , 2013 $31,352 ,
Average Cost Gallon Of Gas
1930 10 cents , 1940 11 cents , 1950 18 cents , 1960 25 cents ,
1970 36 cents , 1980 $1.19 , 1990 $1.34 , 2009 $2.051 , 2013 $3.80 ,
Average Cost Loaf of Bread Food
1930 9 cents , 1940 10 cents , 1950 12 cents , 1960 22 cents ,
1970 25 cents , 1980 50 cents , 1990 70 cents , 2008 $2.79 , 2013 $1.98 ,
Average Cost 1lb Hamburger Meat
1930 12 cents , 1940 20 cents , 1950 30 cents , 1960 45 cents ,
1970 70 cents , 1980 99 cents , 1990 89 cents , 2009 $3.99 , 2013 $4.68

[Talking moose]

Should start a hamburger thread... lol

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You don't understand what collusion is apparently. It is when companies talk openly about agreeing to jointly set prices on what they buy or sell.

Actually, nowhere in any definition of 'collusion' does it say only "talking openly". 'In secret' would also qualify for collusion.

It is criminal. One would go to jail. It had been probed many times before and found that companies are highly competitive and react quickly.

You know Google as well as anyone else. Remember last year when there was a class-action suit against the big boys and the judge ruled that the most important piece of evidence wasn't going to be allowed to be presented? Odd eh?

If company A raises or drops their price...company B can see the sign change and make their decision what to do. That is not collusion.

You're right, that's gouging. When Esso announces it's going down for maintenance and EVERYONE raises their prices THE SAME DAY, that's not a supply shortage, that's profiteering. And while not illegal, it is unconscionable.

Gasoline is a fraction of what a barrel of oil makes. (This actually argues for my point) In a commodity based market the refinerers look to see what product has the most profit. Then supply and demand falls over that and adds increased adjustments.

In turn all companies need to make a profit as we all know they should.

No argument there, as long as you're referring to private companies.

In turn people may complain about prices and never ever find a company making an unfair profit. Why is their none?

Who exactly would define "unfair profit"?

Because if there are crazy profits to be made then someone would increase production which would bring down the price.

Except that the historical reasons given for price hikes don't fully apply recently.

Supply and demand.

I'm willing to bet it has more to do with making up for the low returns per barrel of oil and ensuring a minimum profit.
Price of oil is down? Charge more for gas.
Price of oil up? Charge more for gas and pay bigger dividends.
Kind of a gross game to play with a commodity which should be considered a necessity in today's world.
I'm all for private business making a profit based on supply and demand, but in the petroleum sector neither the 'supply' nor the 'demand' seem to fluctuate nearly as bad as the price.

.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

. Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You don't understand what collusion is apparently. It is when companies talk openly about agreeing to jointly set prices on what they buy or sell.

Actually, nowhere in any definition of 'collusion' does it say only "talking openly". 'In secret' would also qualify for collusion. Sorry...you completely missed that one. Talking opening between companies...not on CNN

It is criminal. One would go to jail. It had been probed many times before and found that companies are highly competitive and react quickly.

You know Google as well as anyone else. Remember last year when there was a class-action suit against the big boys and the judge ruled that the most important piece of evidence wasn't going to be allowed to be presented? Odd eh? No. Please post a link. No idea what you are trying to connect here

If company A raises or drops their price...company B can see the sign change and make their decision what to do. That is not collusion.

You're right, that's gouging. When Esso announces it's going down for maintenance and EVERYONE raises their prices THE SAME DAY, that's not a supply shortage, that's profiteering. And while not illegal, it is unconscionable. False. It is not a definition of gouging. Far from it. Companies are watching their profit margins. They are very low in oil and gas companies. Look at the ROR for any major oil and gas company...then look at McDonalds. You may choke on the burger and beg to wonder why are you mouthing off about an oil company yet smiling as you eat your burger and fries.

Gasoline is a fraction of what a barrel of oil makes. This actually argues for my point In a commodity based market the refinerers look to see what product has the most profit. Then supply and demand falls over that and adds increased adjustments. How on earth does proving supply and demand prove any point for you unless you are a Marxist?

In turn all companies need to make a profit as we all know they should.

No argument there, as long as you're referring to private companies. Given some strange answers on your part I must ask...what is your definition of a private oil company?

In turn people may complain about prices and never ever find a company making an unfair profit. Why is their none?

Who exactly would define "unfair profit"? I asked you that question. What is unfair? A 5% profit? A 10% profit? A 15% profit? A 20% profit? A 50% profit? A 100% profit?

Because if there are crazy profits to be made then someone would increase production which would bring down the price.

Except that the historical reasons given for price hikes don't fully apply recently. Another odd answer that says nothing. Again.. Supply and Demand. If there is profit to be made...companies will. If there is a shortage driving up a price companies will make more.

Supply and demand.

I'm willing to bet it has more to do with making up for the low returns per barrel of oil and ensuring a minimum profit. If you are right...companies should be allowed to make reasonable profits. Oil and gas is an integrated business. While you would love oil companies to give you free gas all day long...fact is they would be broke. If you can do it better and make money...go invest your money. If you won't...you clearly are scared of the sector and hence...why the business is not easy to run. Companies are at the mercy of commodity prices. They don't set the price.
Price of oil is down? Charge more for gas. Odd. Statement
Price of oil up? Charge more for gas and pay bigger dividends. Again...odd statement
Kind of a gross game to play with a commodity which should be considered a necessity in today's world. So you are a Marxist. Everyone gets free or cheap gasoline. I suggest moving to Venezuela
I'm all for private business making a profit based on supply and demand, but in the petroleum sector neither the 'supply' nor the 'demand' seem to fluctuate nearly as bad as the price. You must be very far from the business as this statement is again lacking knowledge. Saying the price fluctuating and supply and demand is not makes no sense.

Awkward answering within your answer within my answer. But oh well.

[pistolero1860]

I suppose the real question here remains unanswered.
Why would anyone be in favor of higher gas prices?
Some here seem very passionately so.

Why?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pistolero1860

I suppose the real question here remains unanswered.
Why would anyone be in favor of higher gas prices?
Some here seem very passionately so.

Why?

I don't know anyone who wants higher prices for anything. I advocate for reasonable profit. I state supply and demand economics help achieve that.

I do not support unfairly bashing any industry whether fast food, oil and gas, farming, construction, manufacturing, etc.

There are lots of people spouting trash with absolution get no grounding in fact. Spreading bogus theories. Stating lies or misinformation as fact.

Some people seem to think a litre of oil gets pumped from the ground and then sent to a gasoline pump to buy.

Some People have no clue apparently as to the costs to find and produce a bbl of oil. No clue as to how it gets transported from a well to a refinery. No clue how it gets refined. No clue as to how that refined product gets shipped to a station to retail. No clue how much it costs to run a gas station.

If it wasn't for store sales gasoline would cost way more because the competition is so high it is hard to live on gasoline profit margins.

YOU can't find one oil company making unfair return of investment to warrant any price bashing.

Challenge once again served only to once again be ignored to join the whining.

[79ford]

I think higher fuel prices are good, same with other petroleum products..... You want companies to invest in making the products which in turn creates demand for the raw resource bringing that price up.


Refiners pay really good money to their workers and there are alot of them. Not like getting screwed at walmart and walmart pays garbage. Pretty much everyone driving in and out of a refinery is probably in the 85k-500k range with 130ish being the average yealy earnings. Anyone who is decent with money retires a millionaire in refining and petrochem.

That money spreads around very well too, they spend hundreds of millions on people and materials to run those things every year.

When you spend 1.29 on gas the gov gets 38 cents... the manufacturing process gets 25 cents, the oil producer gets 40 cents . The ten cents or so left in the middle is your retailer and profit for the refiner.....average crack spread is 3-6$ per barrel in north america or something right now.

[Ken07AOVette]

Jack up the prices of garbage like cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, fancy clothing, designer watches shoes sunglasses and sports cars, sleds, bikes, purses etc 3-40x I could not care less, you know crap nobody 'needs' yet everyone 'wants',

but leave oil reasonable. Everyone needs gasoline and natural gas et-al.

When people have to choose between insurance/gasoline/food for the month there is a problem.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Jack up the prices of garbage like cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, fancy clothing, designer watches shoes sunglasses and sports cars, sleds, bikes, purses etc 3-40x I could not care less, you know crap nobody 'needs' yet everyone 'wants',

but leave oil reasonable. Everyone needs gasoline and natural gas et-al.

When people have to choose between insurance/gasoline/food for the month there is a problem.

Or better yet. Everything free. No matter what your job or education everyone gets the sane pay. Isn't life grand.