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  #151  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:44 PM
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Who likes Daisys...!!!!! Big petaled daisys in the late spring....that and the smell of fresh bread,,,,,

come on guys, how about a big tall glass of sunshine and friendship...

Care Bear stare in 5...4...3....2...1...
  #152  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Given the parameters in the OP YES.

Doubly so if you don't shoot anything.
I was done with the sausage measure when i asked, curious after some of the others comments related to that original question if you still thought the same.

I guess to the second part those people should just buy cameras then.

Have a good one.
  #153  
Old 11-26-2010, 02:07 PM
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That pretty much says it all IMO!
x2
  #154  
Old 11-26-2010, 04:44 PM
Lonnie Lonnie is offline
 
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great read as to cartridge selection being moot point I agree in most hunting condishions as I have always say it is the rifle fit that makes the shooter and as you build your own rifles I asume that their built to fit you which is why you shoot where your looking with out having to think about it. then it realy doesn't matter what cartridge using as long as it deos the job.
  #155  
Old 11-27-2010, 05:08 PM
Leeper Leeper is offline
 
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This will be my very first post on this forum. It is with some regret that I have to start off with a complaint. My complaint is with the posting of pictures of large bull elk. To a man frequently referred to as "Elkless Leeper", such photos are offensive in the extreme. That the same poster then posts a statement like, "Doubly so if you don't shoot anything", only rubs salt into the wound. My realization that by carrying extra cartridges I was just carrying unnecessary weight really brought home to me that, in my case, cartridge selection really is a moot point. True though this may be, I agonize over caliber choice as much as anyone and more than most and my reasons (?) for selecting a particular chambering are just as likely to be impossible to articulate as anyone's. I change barrels as readily as I change shoes. Maybe even moreso. I will re-barrel from 270 to 280 and think I've accomplished something even though I know better.
Since the velocity at impact is the only velocity that matters, it doesn't matter what cartridge was used to launch a bullet insofar as performance on game is concerned. A 150 grain bullet which hits at 1600 fps will have the same effect regardless of the cartridge from which it started. So, all that is required of the cartridge is that it be capable of starting the bullet at sufficient velocity to arrive at the target with sufficient velocity to do the job. Apart from that, the mechanical function is the only really important thing. For this reason, cartridges like the 7x57 and it's brothers, the 30/06 and it's offspring, and, to a slightly lesser extent, the 308 and it's progeny, are superlative game cartridges. They feed and function well. They achieve a ballistic performance level which is effective and reliable. They do these things with commonly available ammunition and/or components. The truth is, a person could be limited to cartridges developed prior to the Second World War and not be handicapped in the least. In fact, one could move that cutoff back to WWI and still be OK; at least as far as the big game fields are concerned.
When one chooses to hunt with a WSM, an Ackley Anything, or even any medium caliber magnum, he is doing so more as a fashion statement than a desire to achieve improved success in the field. I Have little doubt he could have done the same thing with a 30/06. Bullet choice will probably have a far greater effect than cartridge choice.
Now having said all this, I have to admit to believing that big bullets are better than little ones. While their is little difference between a 270 and a 30/06, I think there is a real difference between a 30/06 and a 35 Whelen. Apart from that, I think Chuck is mostly right. I still wish he would knock it off with those elk pictures though! Leeper.
  #156  
Old 11-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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I will consider "mostly right" a very high compliment coming from a person I consider to be the best gunsmith/riflemaker in this country.

Welcome Bill!
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  #157  
Old 11-27-2010, 05:21 PM
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Howdy, Bill, glad to have you stop by!
The Ruger is doing fine,BTW- even though people say it should have been in another cartridge!:>)
Cat
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  #158  
Old 11-27-2010, 08:05 PM
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Leeper

Some folks here seem to know you. I wish I did too.
That was a very impressive post, you made your points very well, and funny too.
You made me wish I knew how to hunt Elk so I could offer to help you get one! LOL That's some good writing.

I don't know if you are new to the site or just haven't posted before, in either case, Welcome to the forums! I look forward to hearing your input.


Hillbilly Jim.
My bud give me that nickname!

I wear it proudly!
  #159  
Old 11-28-2010, 07:25 AM
1100winger 1100winger is offline
 
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Default what a good read -

every newbie should be given the opportunity the read this entire post - especially the difficulties of the south paw shooter. I too shoot left - but was "cured" the moment I was handed my first rifle - a RH model 70 300 WM. Still have it still shoot it right handed as I do with with most of the firearms in the safe but it is now just one moose away from full retirement. (Ambidexterity can be learned). One of my hunting partners and I are discussing these very topics: first rifle (first love), which cartridge, custom or off the shelf, it is good enough for elk and moose & at which range? And we debate the ballistics - knowing that some chamberings terminal ballistics will always exceed the mathematics published (long live the 6.5 swede). It seems that the writer learned most of the essentials early and has kept to the basics: pick an accurate rifle and learn how to use it (Carmichael stuff). Again excellent read and supporting comments. Me? I am now leaning to a custom single shot falling block: one barrel in 300 WM and one in 6.5 Swede. One for nostalgia and the other for hunting.
  #160  
Old 11-28-2010, 08:04 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100winger View Post
(Ambidexterity can be learned)
Eye dominance is a little more difficult to change.
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  #161  
Old 11-28-2010, 08:17 AM
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Hey Cat!

I am kind of partial to the 303 myself. Dad's only rifle was a 303 Ross.
I have one identical to his plus three Lee Enfields in 303. A No1 MkIII a No4 MkII
and a No5 MkI.

The only thing I wish were different is the head space. Brass just doesn't last with the Lee Enfields.

Like 1100winger I am a fan of the 6.5 Swede as well. I don't own any right now but I have owned a few and they were GREAT. As good or better then any modern rifle I have owned. Not that I own many modern guns.

I do have a Model 88 in 284, a Anschuts 1416 in 22LR and a Mark X in 30-06.
The rest of my guns are older. Like my 30 30 made in 1964, a Model 43 Winchester in 218, a 255 Winchester in 22 mag that needs a new hammer housing. And a few assorted misc rifles in common calibers.

Clearly I'm not a gun guru or a marksman for that matter. But my guns do what I need them to do. What more can a man ask?
  #162  
Old 11-28-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100winger View Post
And we debate the ballistics - knowing that some chamberings terminal ballistics will always exceed the mathematics published (long live the 6.5 swede). Again excellent read and supporting comments. Me? I am now leaning to a custom single shot falling block: one barrel in 300 WM and one in 6.5 Swede. One for nostalgia and the other for hunting.
My main hunting rifle is an O/U express rifle with quick detachable scope, and a set of 20 gauge barrels for flying things such ducks and geese.
I also have a Ruger single shot that leeper built in .303 British.

The express rifle is chambered in 6.5X55, and I wouldn't hesitate taken it for moose with 160 grain bullets.
I've killed them with a '96 mauser with no problem, and have no need for a belted magnum.....
Cat
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  #163  
Old 11-28-2010, 10:53 AM
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Getting back to cartridge choices, there are times when the rifle package also plays a part in the cartridge choice. For instance, the aforementioned Lee Enfield is pretty well a 303 forever. As it happens, the 303 is a great game cartridge. In addition, the Lee Enfield is a rugged and dependable rifle. If you are a reloader though, it has some shortcomings. As well, rimmed cartridges don't really feed as well as their rimless counterparts. I still frequently hunt with one and I like it but I have to admit to it's faults.
For use in bolt action sporting rifles, all of the Mauser cartridges are exceptional. The 6.5x55 is possibly the best of the 6.5's. The 7x57, while not as fast as some more modern numbers, isn't far off the pace; especially with the powders available today. The one thing the Mauser cartridges won't do is fit into a short action and this is an example of the rifle dictating the cartridge selection. If you like a short action, you will have to choose a 260 Remington rather than the venerable 6.5x55. We have to face the facts though; the 260 isn't doing anything the older cartridge would not have done at least as well. It is pushing identical bullets at similar speeds to similar effect. It's existence is simply a result of the desire to put 6.5x55 performance in an action which it won't fit.
The 7mm-08 is another example of the same thing. It's a 7x57 in a short action.
These short action cartridges are reasonably successful commercially and very successful in the field because they duplicate the practical performance levels of the Mauser rounds.
The 30/06 based rounds are, likewise, exceptional cartridges. They feed well. They fit the actions well and magzine capacity is good. Performance is a step above the Mauser cartridges. Until you get up to the 33 caliber, they have sufficient capacity to provide all the performance one needs for anything he is going to hunt. The 280 might be the best of the lot.
I have always felt the rifle to be more important than the cartridge but, as I said before, I still get caught up in cartrtidge choice, just like everyone else.
An example of this can be seen in a Model 54 Winchester project I started on a couple of years back; that is to say, I acquired the rifle then, if that can be called a start! I was interested in doing up a Model 54 because it seemed like a nice platform on which I could demonstrate my talents(?). Sadly, the first talent I had to demonstrate was my talent for coming out on the short end of any trade. Consequently, I traded about 650.00 worth of work for a rifle worth a solid 250.00. Putting this sad start behind me I began the rebuilding and it is here that I have hit the snag. This rifle has been everything from a 257 Roberts to a 9.3x62 with stops at every caliber in between. These have all been virtual builds, mind you. A virtual build is where I lean back in the old Lazy Boy and imagine the build and the results. Virtual builds are great. The barrels are always top notch. The stocks practically shape themselves. Checkering is flawless. Accuracy is superb and at the end, I reward myself with a virtual hunt where the rifle, in my hands, drops that big bull elk with a single well placed shot. Somehow, I skip over the gutting, skinning, and butchering and the next scene shows me contentedly masticating a tender steak while admiring the rack on my wall. When I am jarred back to reality though (often by my wife asking, "what are you smirking about?"), I go back down to the shop, pick up the battered old action and gaze at the pile of barrels under the bench and try to decide which one to put on. Then I stare at the stock blanks in the corner and wonder if I shouldn't go with fiberglass.
As you can see, one can claim all the knowledge he wants but he still won't be able to make up his mind. Leeper
  #164  
Old 11-28-2010, 11:13 AM
roadkill roadkill is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeper View Post
Getting back to cartridge choices, there are times when the rifle package also plays a part in the cartridge choice. For instance, the aforementioned Lee Enfield is pretty well a 303 forever. As it happens, the 303 is a great game cartridge. In addition, the Lee Enfield is a rugged and dependable rifle. If you are a reloader though, it has some shortcomings. As well, rimmed cartridges don't really feed as well as their rimless counterparts. I still frequently hunt with one and I like it but I have to admit to it's faults.
For use in bolt action sporting rifles, all of the Mauser cartridges are exceptional. The 6.5x55 is possibly the best of the 6.5's. The 7x57, while not as fast as some more modern numbers, isn't far off the pace; especially with the powders available today. The one thing the Mauser cartridges won't do is fit into a short action and this is an example of the rifle dictating the cartridge selection. If you like a short action, you will have to choose a 260 Remington rather than the venerable 6.5x55. We have to face the facts though; the 260 isn't doing anything the older cartridge would not have done at least as well. It is pushing identical bullets at similar speeds to similar effect. It's existence is simply a result of the desire to put 6.5x55 performance in an action which it won't fit.
The 7mm-08 is another example of the same thing. It's a 7x57 in a short action.
These short action cartridges are reasonably successful commercially and very successful in the field because they duplicate the practical performance levels of the Mauser rounds.
The 30/06 based rounds are, likewise, exceptional cartridges. They feed well. They fit the actions well and magzine capacity is good. Performance is a step above the Mauser cartridges. Until you get up to the 33 caliber, they have sufficient capacity to provide all the performance one needs for anything he is going to hunt. The 280 might be the best of the lot.
I have always felt the rifle to be more important than the cartridge but, as I said before, I still get caught up in cartrtidge choice, just like everyone else.
An example of this can be seen in a Model 54 Winchester project I started on a couple of years back; that is to say, I acquired the rifle then, if that can be called a start! I was interested in doing up a Model 54 because it seemed like a nice platform on which I could demonstrate my talents(?). Sadly, the first talent I had to demonstrate was my talent for coming out on the short end of any trade. Consequently, I traded about 650.00 worth of work for a rifle worth a solid 250.00. Putting this sad start behind me I began the rebuilding and it is here that I have hit the snag. This rifle has been everything from a 257 Roberts to a 9.3x62 with stops at every caliber in between. These have all been virtual builds, mind you. A virtual build is where I lean back in the old Lazy Boy and imagine the build and the results. Virtual builds are great. The barrels are always top notch. The stocks practically shape themselves. Checkering is flawless. Accuracy is superb and at the end, I reward myself with a virtual hunt where the rifle, in my hands, drops that big bull elk with a single well placed shot. Somehow, I skip over the gutting, skinning, and butchering and the next scene shows me contentedly masticating a tender steak while admiring the rack on my wall. When I am jarred back to reality though (often by my wife asking, "what are you smirking about?"), I go back down to the shop, pick up the battered old action and gaze at the pile of barrels under the bench and try to decide which one to put on. Then I stare at the stock blanks in the corner and wonder if I shouldn't go with fiberglass.
As you can see, one can claim all the knowledge he wants but he still won't be able to make up his mind. Leeper
Leeper, do you have a website? I have no idea what the AO policy is regarding putting website addresses in sig lines, but you might want to consider it.

Or just PM me a link so I can drool over your work. I saw pics of Cat's .303 and thought it looked fab.
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  #165  
Old 11-28-2010, 11:28 AM
Leeper Leeper is offline
 
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I don't have a website and am really sort of retired. I have been trying to do a bit of writing and plan to try to get published when I write something I think is really worth reading.
As far as gunsmithing is concerned, I have projects lined up for the forseeable future and just take on the occasional interesting job. I have no need to advertise and am as happy to instruct and entertain as I am to 'smith. Leeper
  #166  
Old 11-28-2010, 11:30 AM
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I think saying cartridge selection is moot is over simplifying things a bit. Certain cartridges fall within different performance envelopes based on calibre, energy, muzzle velocity, etc. Within that envelope, I'd agree that cartridge selection is moot but definitely not across the broad spectrum of cartridges it's definitely not moot. Some cartridges are better to suited to certain applications than others.
  #167  
Old 11-28-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I think saying cartridge selection is moot is over simplifying things a bit. Certain cartridges fall within different performance envelopes based on calibre, energy, muzzle velocity, etc. Within that envelope, I'd agree that cartridge selection is moot but definitely not across the broad spectrum of cartridges it's definitely not moot. Some cartridges are better to suited to certain applications than others.
The End.
  #168  
Old 11-28-2010, 12:11 PM
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Welcome Bill. Since I am rarely on CGN anymore it will be nice to be able to read your posts and glean some wisdom from you when I can.

Sorry Chuck is so offensive with his elk photos, in fact he is kind of p'ing me off with them as well. I mean really, why not post photos of a little 3 point, or maybe a cow or two... and he is not even happy with those big bulls! Just grumpy!

Oh well, I have to go cut up the little runt of a 5'er I took on Thursday.
  #169  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:26 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I think saying cartridge selection is moot is over simplifying things a bit. Certain cartridges fall within different performance envelopes based on calibre, energy, muzzle velocity, etc. Within that envelope, I'd agree that cartridge selection is moot but definitely not across the broad spectrum of cartridges it's definitely not moot. Some cartridges are better to suited to certain applications than others.
Oversimplifying maybe. But it beats the overcomplicating nature of it so many are fond of making it.
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  #170  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:32 PM
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Oversimplifying maybe. But it beats the overcomplicating nature of it so many are fond of making it.
No question it gets over thought but no sense under thinking it either. There is a happy medium...
  #171  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
No question it gets over thought but no sense under thinking it either. There is a happy medium...
That happy medium rests with more cartridges than not.....
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  #172  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:41 PM
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That happy medium rests with more cartridges than not.....
Agreed!
  #173  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:48 PM
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The reality is, a very high percentage of big game hunters cannot take advantage of any ballistic superiority one cartridge or one bullet may hold over another (thinking and saying you can doesn't necessarily make it so either). If they can they most certainly don't need a lecture on the subject.

But it does make for interesting discussion sometimes.
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  #174  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
The reality is, a very high percentage of big game hunters cannot take advantage of any ballistic superiority one cartridge or one bullet may hold over another (thinking and saying you can doesn't necessarily make it so either). If they can they most certainly don't need a lecture on the subject.

But it does make for interesting discussion sometimes.
I try not to speak to what others can or can't do......ends in too many measuring contests. That I don't find so interesting. If they say they can do it.....who am I to say they can't and in the scheme of things, it really doesn't affect me so why should I care Although I've never really seen the need to prove what I can or can't do either
  #175  
Old 11-28-2010, 03:03 PM
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Default Ok making sense

This thread is all about advise based on "experience" . I don't think so, will try to explain . First of all, the post was made by a 34 yr old and if he hunted ever day of his legal life (to date) he would still be questioned as to what he proclaims. This BRINGS ME TO THE OBVIOUS question , how could all this experience be obtained while on here everyday during season ... hmmm.. ??? Well there is NO personel experience , anywhere near what you say Chuck ..Why ?
I know and understand how to read magazines and other forums just as well as YOU . If you like I will repeat and post all the advise you have given us while "refering" to magazine articles and writers. I believe you have a passion for security and need strong facts before you change or except anything new ..On this site you have proclaimed how "all-round" and almighty the 30-06 would be ..but you used someone else's experience in a article about stopping a grizz charge...Where's your experience with this cartridge to advocate the usefullness as you do ?? hmm again ..internet KNOWLEDGE..
Writers have gone from energy to HOLES and wound channel that kill ..bullet selection and placement. Yes it has changed and thats where you come in . I believe you have theories right now about "moot" for cartridge selection mostly because of your "readings"..
As writer's change over the next 10 yrs will you too Chuck ?? Or do u stand that a whitetail cartridge in Sask is all that is needed for coastal grisses in BC ??
  #176  
Old 11-28-2010, 03:12 PM
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This thread is all about advise based on "experience" . I don't think so, will try to explain . First of all, the post was made by a 34 yr old and if he hunted ever day of his legal life (to date) he would still be questioned as to what he proclaims. This BRINGS ME TO THE OBVIOUS question , how could all this experience be obtained while on here everyday during season ... hmmm.. ??? Well there is NO personel experience , anywhere near what you say Chuck ..Why ?
I know and understand how to read magazines and other forums just as well as YOU . If you like I will repeat and post all the advise you have given us while "refering" to magazine articles and writers. I believe you have a passion for security and need strong facts before you change or except anything new ..On this site you have proclaimed how "all-round" and almighty the 30-06 would be ..but you used someone else's experience in a article about stopping a grizz charge...Where's your experience with this cartridge to advocate the usefullness as you do ?? hmm again ..internet KNOWLEDGE..
Writers have gone from energy to HOLES and wound channel that kill ..bullet selection and placement. Yes it has changed and thats where you come in . I believe you have theories right now about "moot" for cartridge selection mostly because of your "readings"..
As writer's change over the next 10 yrs will you too Chuck ?? Or do u stand that a whitetail cartridge in Sask is all that is needed for coastal grisses in BC ??
You know why I love you, Pines? Next to you, I feel downright welcome in these convos.

Do you have to try hard to be as insulting as you are, or does it come naturally? I don't see where this convo *had* to become a pi55ing match. The original question was legit, and a whole lot of the arguments presented are as well. Okay, you don't agree with Chuck. Does his experience level threaten you some how?

Myself, I don't know Chuck from a hole in the wall, but I can tell you that he's been better behaved than you have been, and his points have made more sense. If you had brought your own points to the argument in a sensible fashion, you would likely have brought something to the argument. As it is, you've just helped turn an otherwise interesting read into a painful bloody experience.

What the ever-lovin' snot is your problem? And if you can't argue like an adult, then what the hell are you doing with a modem?
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  #177  
Old 11-28-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadkill View Post
You know why I love you, Pines? Next to you, I feel downright welcome in these convos.

Do you have to try hard to be as insulting as you are, or does it come naturally? I don't see where this convo *had* to become a pi55ing match. The original question was legit, and a whole lot of the arguments presented are as well. Okay, you don't agree with Chuck. Does his experience level threaten you some how?

Myself, I don't know Chuck from a hole in the wall, but I can tell you that he's been better behaved than you have been, and his points have made more sense. If you had brought your own points to the argument in a sensible fashion, you would likely have brought something to the argument. As it is, you've just helped turn an otherwise interesting read into a painful bloody experience.

What the ever-lovin' snot is your problem? And if you can't argue like an adult, then what the hell are you doing with a modem?
Is this site to be informative ?? Cause i can google and be a hero ..Sorry , but I got shot down prior ....
  #178  
Old 11-28-2010, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by roadkill View Post
You know why I love you, Pines? Next to you, I feel downright welcome in these convos.

Do you have to try hard to be as insulting as you are, or does it come naturally? I don't see where this convo *had* to become a pi55ing match. The original question was legit, and a whole lot of the arguments presented are as well. Okay, you don't agree with Chuck. Does his experience level threaten you some how?

Myself, I don't know Chuck from a hole in the wall, but I can tell you that he's been better behaved than you have been, and his points have made more sense. If you had brought your own points to the argument in a sensible fashion, you would likely have brought something to the argument. As it is, you've just helped turn an otherwise interesting read into a painful bloody experience.

What the ever-lovin' snot is your problem? And if you can't argue like an adult, then what the hell are you doing with a modem?
U believe what u want ...but Chuck started and he should defend his knowledge...
  #179  
Old 11-28-2010, 04:09 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Pines View Post
This thread is all about advise based on "experience" . I don't think so, will try to explain . First of all, the post was made by a 34 yr old and if he hunted ever day of his legal life (to date) he would still be questioned as to what he proclaims. This BRINGS ME TO THE OBVIOUS question , how could all this experience be obtained while on here everyday during season ... hmmm.. ??? Well there is NO personel experience , anywhere near what you say Chuck ..Why ?
I know and understand how to read magazines and other forums just as well as YOU . If you like I will repeat and post all the advise you have given us while "refering" to magazine articles and writers. I believe you have a passion for security and need strong facts before you change or except anything new ..On this site you have proclaimed how "all-round" and almighty the 30-06 would be ..but you used someone else's experience in a article about stopping a grizz charge...Where's your experience with this cartridge to advocate the usefullness as you do ?? hmm again ..internet KNOWLEDGE..
Writers have gone from energy to HOLES and wound channel that kill ..bullet selection and placement. Yes it has changed and thats where you come in . I believe you have theories right now about "moot" for cartridge selection mostly because of your "readings"..
As writer's change over the next 10 yrs will you too Chuck ?? Or do u stand that a whitetail cartridge in Sask is all that is needed for coastal grisses in BC ??
The proof as they say is in the pudding and if you can bring something of substance to the table I'm all ears. So far all you can do is come up with half desrcript ramblings of someone who can hardly speak let alone lecture someone on their experience. Here are some of the heads that got relegated to the barn and does not include as many skin heads, skulls, and the big stuff on the wall or at the taxidermist. These were not harvested in a magazine.

Do you know how to work a camera? Cause I'd like to see you best it.

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  #180  
Old 11-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Pines Pines is offline
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
The proof as they say is in the pudding and if you can bring something of substance to the table I'm all ears. So far all you can do is come up with half desrcript ramblings of someone who can hardly speak let alone lecture someone on their experience. Here are some of the heads that got relegated to the barn and does not include as many skin heads, skulls, and the big stuff on the wall or at the taxidermist. These were not harvested in a magazine.

Do you know how to work a camera? Cause I'd like to see you best it.

OHHH I give and am impressed ..the same as CHUCK with imtimidation and it works
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