Is cartridge selection a moot point?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Bella Twin killed one of the largest grizzly bears in Alberta with a 22short, so it obviously can work, given perfect shot placement, but then again, perfect shot placement isn't something that we can always be 100% sure of. I personally would be much more comfortable carrying a much larger cartridge when hunting grizzly bears, or any other big game animal.The larger cartridge does give a person more room for error for those situations when you don't get to choose your shot,and have to take what is presented in order to protect yourself.I guess that is why my guide carried a 338win mag,and the other guides carried rifles in similar chamberings.None of them carried 270 win rifles.



I base my opinion on my own experience, but I assumed from a previous post of yours,that you hadn't hunted grizzly.

And I assume from your post that you hadn't taken long range raking shots with 270's on bull Elk either. Leaving me to believe you wouldn't have the foggiest clue whether it would work or not.

It's funny you should mention guides. I know of Brown Bear guides that carry 30-06's as backup rifles for Alaskan Brown Bear.

I will also say that I have been in the presence of several Grizzly bears, five in fact this fall, and never once felt undergunned had my life been in danger. But I do know how to use a rifle. Any center fire rifle with good bullets is a nasty weapon capable of horrific things. But cartridge selection for Grizzlies in full charge is not on my mind when selecting cartridge for hunting rifles.

[elkhunter11]

And I assume from your post that you hadn't taken long range raking shots with 270's on bull Elk either.

And I haven't taken them with a 243 either,or with a .223,even though it would have been legal to do so in some locations that I hunted in.And I have no intention of doing so, in the future.

It's funny you should mention guides. I know of Brown Bear guides that carry 30-06's as backup rifles for Alaskan Brown Bear.

How many carry 270 win rifles?

I will also say that I have been in the presence of several Grizzly bears, five in fact this fall, and never once felt undergunned had my life been in danger.

I have watched quite a few grizzly bears myself,it doesn't quite feel the same when you are being charged by one.

But I do know how to use a rifle.

The fact that I am typing this after facing a charge by a grizzly speaks for itself.

But cartridge selection for Grizzlies in full charge is not on my mind when selecting cartridge for hunting rifles.

What difference would it make if cartridge selection is a moot point?

[billie]

Good points all around.

Personally, .284-.308, 140gr-180gr, 2600fps or more and any in there will do just fine for me.

I've got 3.
308 has taken the most deer
284 is my favorite
300WM goes on the elk hunts.

[Stinky Coyote]

So I guess I throw it out to anyone. Has someone here shot something at longer range and wished they were packing more gun or shooting a different cartridge?

Yes

i had a .270 laminate stainless tikka with a burris ff2 bp reticle scope when i got the sheep fever, traded for synthetic stock and cash to save 11 3/4 oz and then got rid of the heavy leupold rings bases for talleys and went to leupy ultralight with target knob, collected data and had it set up with kenton speed dial which ended up winding me out well past the range it still had enough velocity to make the bullet do what was necessary for big game work, it was when i shot under prodding from an f-class buddy to prove my 'pea-shooter' could do what i said with him and another witness there at 701 yrds and dialed up and hit the middle of the rock with both watching and turned the pressure on him and his built up 300 winny and duplicate it (which he did within a few inches) i knew i was hooked, but i also knew that i didn't have the velocity left at that range for proper bullet expansion

so the answer is yes, my at my first shot over 500 i knew i would need more horsepower to do what i wanted to be able to do if i ever had the right opportunity....i never knew i would get long range bug when i bought that rifle....i bought it because its what was most recommended for general hunting and it worked great, i tried to turn it into something it just didn't have the jam to do....but great way to get feet wet and get going, i had the sako short mag for the next season and took a ewe at around 310 but didn't even dial as was still in my pbr

couple questions for you.....

do you ever rangefind when out in the hills? never having spent a lot of time mountain hunting etc. when i first started hiking i ranged everything as i went, still do, as soon as i'm in country i think i could be seeing game i'm ranging to see if i'm in the zone or not...just in case, so much stuff i range looks like its too far for the little sako but its not and i learned that early on, its why i wanted to build to that far, so many basins i can cover the whole thing, the more normal valleys lots of spots across still in range, looking up from below as visibility to some high meadows and ridges open up and oh...649 yrds....could be a ram right there sort of thing.....500 yrds did nothing for my mojo but the amount of stuff i was ranging in the 650 to 800 yrd range was much greater

the whole reason this long range thing got going was to take advantage of those opportunities where they are there and oblivious and you don't have to risk ruining the chance with a stalk etc. etc.

i just don't see it the same, 500 is not enough by what my rangefinder tells me evertime i hike into that pretty country, so i simply prepared for more of what i was seeing as potential opportunity that could land me the trophy of a lifetime if the conditions were there, example, i got a day this past weekend to try one more time for elk, saw boatloads and a decent five splitting but not making legal in some lower country, if that bull was legal with all the other eyes around and all the trees etc. i already knew i would have gone up the finger opposite of them and i could tell it was probably going to be 600-700 yrd shot but it would have been my best chance at him....slam dunk, would be nice to have a chance at a kill zone that size in that range....deer no prob, big bull...bring it

as i said before, you take the firearm side of it to the enth degree of preparedness (100%) and i dig the rifles your building, but even though i may hardly ever use the full potential of the cartridge....that sure doesn't mean my guns won't be ready to go to their potential....the chances with be there, even if only the one chance at a trophy of a lifetime.....then its all worth it imo, i just can't bring myself to go up with less now

i would like to keep the same range capability by using higher bc bullets to move down in powder burned and recoil etc. to be more efficient and build even lighter rig but i can't go back to hold a foot over back at 500 now that i've tested plenty to 800 with no surprises at all and even now to 920 and still would have killed any deer size critter i was aiming at and it probably would have downed a coyote with that test shot too...

i'd like to know how many instances you've run into afield where had you been set up to go 8-900 that you could have bagged more game, i know its real, people are doing it, mountain hunters pretty much started the whole transition adapting long range capability from target to hunting practicality etc. due to the much great amount of chances at those ranges and they make it happen now, whole forums of people making it happen, i just think your missing out, your not quite as prepared as you could be

end of day comes down to what level of preparedness your comfortable with, thing is you think that level your at is all that it should ever need to be for everyone else too and for so many people its plenty more than enough...but not all people are satisfied at that level....as clearly my comfort level of preparedness is much different, i think more current and with the times, i'm with the movement, your sticking to what you've found works for you and saying its all anyone ever needs

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And I haven't taken them with a 243 either,or with a .223,even though it would have been legal to do so in some locations that I hunted in.And I have no intention of doing so, in the future.

I could care less.



How many carry 270 win rifles?

The latest article in Successful Hunter written by Phil Shoemaker sites at least one.



I have watched quite a few grizzly bears myself,it doesn't quite feel the same when you are being charged by one.

I believe that but I'm not sure that has anything to do with cartridge selection



The fact that I am typing this after facing a charge by a grizzly speaks for itself.

It says that a 338/8mm wildcat will kill a charging bear. It give ZERO indication of whether any other cartridge will work and makes my wonder how you will ever survive a charge with a 280 AI in your hands.



What difference would it make if cartridge selection is a moot point?

About the same difference every other thread/post on any hunting/shooting forum matters.

Once again I'm giving observations based on my experience.

[elkhunter11]

Once again I'm giving observations based on my experience.

Exactly,just as myself and other people that have killed a good number of animals of different species with different cartridges, under different conditions are doing.Our experiences are different,so our observations are different.If we all had similar experiences,our observations would be much more alike as well.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Yes

i had a .270 laminate stainless tikka with a burris ff2 bp reticle scope when i got the sheep fever, traded for synthetic stock and cash to save 11 3/4 oz and then got rid of the heavy leupold rings bases for talleys and went to leupy ultralight with target knob, collected data and had it set up with kenton speed dial which ended up winding me out well past the range it still had enough velocity to make the bullet do what was necessary for big game work, it was when i shot under prodding from an f-class buddy to prove my 'pea-shooter' could do what i said with him and another witness there at 701 yrds and dialed up and hit the middle of the rock with both watching and turned the pressure on him and his built up 300 winny and duplicate it (which he did within a few inches) i knew i was hooked, but i also knew that i didn't have the velocity left at that range for proper bullet expansion

so the answer is yes, my at my first shot over 500 i knew i would need more horsepower to do what i wanted to be able to do if i ever had the right opportunity....i never knew i would get long range bug when i bought that rifle....i bought it because its what was most recommended for general hunting and it worked great, i tried to turn it into something it just didn't have the jam to do....but great way to get feet wet and get going, i had the sako short mag for the next season and took a ewe at around 310 but didn't even dial as was still in my pbr

couple questions for you.....

do you ever rangefind when out in the hills? never having spent a lot of time mountain hunting etc. when i first started hiking i ranged everything as i went, still do, as soon as i'm in country i think i could be seeing game i'm ranging to see if i'm in the zone or not...just in case, so much stuff i range looks like its too far for the little sako but its not and i learned that early on, its why i wanted to build to that far, so many basins i can cover the whole thing, the more normal valleys lots of spots across still in range, looking up from below as visibility to some high meadows and ridges open up and oh...649 yrds....could be a ram right there sort of thing.....500 yrds did nothing for my mojo but the amount of stuff i was ranging in the 650 to 800 yrd range was much greater

the whole reason this long range thing got going was to take advantage of those opportunities where they are there and oblivious and you don't have to risk ruining the chance with a stalk etc. etc.

i just don't see it the same, 500 is not enough by what my rangefinder tells me evertime i hike into that pretty country, so i simply prepared for more of what i was seeing as potential opportunity that could land me the trophy of a lifetime if the conditions were there, example, i got a day this past weekend to try one more time for elk, saw boatloads and a decent five splitting but not making legal in some lower country, if that bull was legal with all the other eyes around and all the trees etc. i already knew i would have gone up the finger opposite of them and i could tell it was probably going to be 600-700 yrd shot but it would have been my best chance at him....slam dunk, would be nice to have a chance at a kill zone that size in that range....deer no prob, big bull...bring it

as i said before, you take the firearm side of it to the enth degree of preparedness (100%) and i dig the rifles your building, but even though i may hardly ever use the full potential of the cartridge....that sure doesn't mean my guns won't be ready to go to their potential....the chances with be there, even if only the one chance at a trophy of a lifetime.....then its all worth it imo, i just can't bring myself to go up with less now

i would like to keep the same range capability by using higher bc bullets to move down in powder burned and recoil etc. to be more efficient and build even lighter rig but i can't go back to hold a foot over back at 500 now that i've tested plenty to 800 with no surprises at all and even now to 920 and still would have killed any deer size critter i was aiming at and it probably would have downed a coyote with that test shot too...

i'd like to know how many instances you've run into afield where had you been set up to go 8-900 that you could have bagged more game, i know its real, people are doing it, mountain hunters pretty much started the whole transition adapting long range capability from target to hunting practicality etc. due to the much great amount of chances at those ranges and they make it happen now, whole forums of people making it happen, i just think your missing out, your not quite as prepared as you could be

end of day comes down to what level of preparedness your comfortable with, thing is you think that level your at is all that it should ever need to be for everyone else too and for so many people its plenty more than enough...but not all people are satisfied at that level....as clearly my comfort level of preparedness is much different, i think more current and with the times, i'm with the movement, your sticking to what you've found works for you and saying its all anyone ever needs

While I appreciate your comments, it's fairy clear you have not taken game at longer ranges. But it appears as though you are prepared to give it a go should the stars align. I'll just continue to work my way somewhere inside 500 yds or so and kill things I guess.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly,just as myself and other people that have killed a good number of animals of different species with different cartridges, under different conditions are doing.Our experiences are different,so our observations are different.If we all had similar experiences,our observations would be much more alike as well.

I'm not doubting your experience and never have. I'm OK with different.

[elkhunter11]

I'm not doubting your experience and never have. I'm OK with different.

And part of being different,is that based on our different experiences, we don't have to agree with your opinion that cartridge selection is a moot point.

[Stinky Coyote]

lol chuck, as if i just created all this myself, oh well, i did dial up a fawn at 521 with the .270 before this short mag and bang flopped it with a witness just before that gun moved on to make room for this one...no biggie, its all in the set up....so do tell us of your experience in long range shooting and your set ups and what made you go back to 500 or less simple? just like to buck the trend eh? lol, old school

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And part of being different,is that based on our different experiences, we don't have to agree with your opinion that cartridge selection is a moot point.

ding ding ding...we have a winner!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

I'll just continue to work my way somewhere inside 500 yds or so and kill things I guess.

happy for you, i'll do the same inside 900....happy hunting

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

lol chuck, as if i just created all this myself, oh well, i did dial up a fawn at 521 with the .270 before this short mag and bang flopped it with a witness just before that gun moved on to make room for this one...no biggie, its all in the set up....so do tell us of your experience in long range shooting and your set ups and what made you go back to 500 or less simple? just like to buck the trend eh? lol, old school

If actually shooting game is bucking the trend and old school. I'm guilty. If new school is shooting rocks and pretending to be ready for the "long" shot then I guess you win.

[Cal]

I like your post Chuck, I agree that at the ranges most hunting shots are taken its pretty hard to pick a calliber that wont work. Further more those cartriges often reffered to as "marginal" often seem to kill things about the same as the bigger rounds that get the nod of approval. Of course the long range jocks will always dissagree.

My first hunting partner had carried around a 300 win mag with a bipod and high power scope that weighed inat around 10 1/2 lbs for the better over a decade, even he admitted that at the range he could not comfortably shoot a whole box of amo. When asked if in 10 years of hunting he had ever had to make a shot that he could not have easily made with my .303 all he could come up with was "I once made a long shot on a black bear". He would still argue the advantages against my smaller guns to this day, and to this day I will choose a gun that I know will suit most of my hunting over a calliber that will come in handy on a shot I probably wont have to take.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

happy for you, i'll do the same inside 900....

But you haven't though. Or did I miss something?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And part of being different,is that based on our different experiences, we don't have to agree with your opinion that cartridge selection is a moot point.

Your welcome to do that. It still doesn't make me wrong.

[elkhunter11]

so do tell us of your experience in long range shooting and your set ups and what made you go back to 500 or less simple? just like to buck the trend eh? lol, old school

Well if limiting your shots on game animals to 500 yards or so is old school,I guess that I am old school as well.Just as Chuck has,I have taken a fair number of big game animals at distances out to 500 yards or so,but I have resisted the temptation to take longer shots on game animals.I practice to 550 yards,at the local range, so that is the limit that I set for myself for shots on big game animals.I may shoot some targets at longer distances next spring, but I am hesitant to shoot farther at big game animals,because the consequences of misjudging windage on a game animal are far more serious than missing a paper or steel target.I have passed up shots in the 600 yard range, in the past, and I will continue to do so, because I just don't want to increase the risk of a wounded animal because I misjudged the wind.

Your welcome to do that. It still doesn't make me wrong.

It doesn't make either of us wrong,or right for that matter.

[elkhunter11]

When asked if in 10 years of hunting he had ever had to make a shot that he could not have easily made with my .303 all he could come up with was "I once made a long shot on a black bear".

What kind of groups does your 303 shoot at 500 yards?Can you keep a five shot group in a 5" circle at that distance?If not,I for one wouldn't be using it.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

If actually shooting game is bucking the trend and old school. I'm guilty. If new school is shooting rocks and pretending to be ready for the "long" shot then I guess you win.

coyote at 800, bambi at 521, i don't go out of my way to shoot long, just prepared for just it and like the coyote at 800 found out, and the buddy doing f-class at the time challenging me at 701....you wouldn't want to bet against me, we'll both keep whacking and stacking, i'm just more ready, whether or not it gets used....eh, may never know i guess

good one on the pretending though....you keep hangin the high hold over those huge kill zones of those bull elk you like to chase up to 500, i'll keep on dialing up coyotes at 800 and whatever else happens to be far enough away and i actually see it to even dial it up in the next time zone

you are the main man chuck

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

good one on the pretending though....you keep hangin the high hold over those huge kill zones of those bull elk you like to chase up to 500, i'll keep on dialing up coyotes at 800 and whatever else happens to be far enough away and i actually see it to even dial it up in the next time zone

If you want to call it pretending I'm good with that.

[elkhunter11]

coyote at 800,

Just out of curiosity,how many coyotes have you killed at 800 yards?How many at over 500 yards?How many shots have you taken at coyotes at 800 yards?How many at over 500 yards?I am just trying to see if Chuck is right in his assumption,or if you really do have considerable experience at those yardages.

Yikes, the pants are coming down and the tape measure is coming out.....

[MK2750]

So what I picture after these pages of irrelevant contradiction is Stinky and Elkhunter scaling the mountain passes together.

Stinky, in the lead of course, with enough technical data to whack the flies off a sheep’s backside a mile or more away. Even the possibility of that animal passing gas at the moment of impact has been calculated and its effects on the flight path of his Super Sonic 6.7mm super short, extra fat, triple belted ultra mag.

Elkhunter taking up the rear scanning the tree line for even a hint of danger. In his white knuckles enough fire power to literally knock a charging Grizz off the side of the mountain from sheer muzzle blast alone. Man nor beast would stand a chance against this deadly duo.

As for the rest of us mere mortals clinging to weapon passed down from our cave dwelling forefathers……………cartridge selection is a moot point.

Great post Chuck.

I was cleaning out the gun safe of 06s, 08s, 03s and a couple 300 savages in hopes of buying that perfect rifle with the money raised. In the back corner covered in grease was a 7x57. After three years of studying, shooting and killing with this rifle I have come to the conclusion that not a lot has happened in the cartridge department since 1892.

I have since refocused and am now on the quest for a perfect shotgun.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yikes, the pants are coming down and the tape measure is coming out.....

Some find the exposed truth rather embarrassing. Pun intended.

[North of 53]

I would have to agree for the most part that its more about the one pulling the trigger than the cartridge. There are extremes that call for a little common sense when picking a cartridge for a given job but this flavor of the week cartridge thing that goes on now to sell new guns is for sure way out of hand. I was once asked why I shoot what I shoot instead of something more common and the only really answer I could give was because it would be boring to shoot a plain old 30-06 when you could shoot some wildcat. But I will have to admit that the 30-06 would do the job 90% of the time just as well if not better and I do have a 30-06.
For myself I have found it is as much about your confidence in what you have in your hands at the time as it is what you actual do have in your hands. I have some very nice customs rifles that shoot 1/2 MOA or less on a good day but if I really want to kill something I pull out my fathers old Browning BAR 30-06 ( a 2" MOA GUN) and just get it done. I will say I don't shoot the 30-06 much past 300 yards but not much runs away if I get a shot or two inside that.
I think that most of the new cartridges that are coming out now are more about hitting a target market than hitting a target, and that's at any range
I will admit that I am a sucker for a new gun and a new cartridge but I have say in truth there is not a good reason, other than I can, for getting some of the ones I have gotten.

If my wife wife ever reads this I will need to be doing some fancy talking fast. I have always assured her that I needed this new one for a special purpose that the other guns could not do well at all.

[elkhunter11]

Elkhunter taking up the rear scanning the tree line for even a hint of danger. In his white knuckles enough fire power to literally knock a charging Grizz off the side of the mountain from sheer muzzle blast alone. Man nor beast would stand a chance against this deadly duo.

So tell us,just how much experience do you have hunting in the mountains.Judging by your cocky post,I can only assume that you have taken enough bighorns,elk and grizzly to teach everyone else here how to hunt them.You can probably scale a mountain,shoot a bighorn at 500 yards offhand with a 100 year old open sighted rifle,wrestle a grizzly for the carcass with your bare hands,clean the ram,then carry it all the way home on your back before dark.

[elkhunter11]

But I will have to admit that the 30-06 would do the job 90% of the time just as well if not better and I do have a 30-06.

The obvious question, is why wouldn't it do the job 100% of the time?

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So tell us,just how much experience do you have hunting in the mountains.Judging by your cocky post,I can only assume that you have taken enough bighorns,elk and grizzly to teach everyone else here how to hunt them.You can probably scale a mountain,shoot a bighorn at 500 yards offhand with a 100 year old open sighted rifle,wrestle a grizzly for the carcass with your bare hands,clean the ram,then carry it all the way home on your back before dark.

And would we have plans for after lunch?

Originally Posted by mk2750

and would we have plans for after lunch?

lol......

lol...you can always tell when you are getting frustrated elk...you go from the analytical cartridge guy to the guy that resorts to childish personal shots...time for the Mrs. to tuck you in I think...you are getting cranky. It's past your bed time......nighty night! You can come out and play tomorrow...