Cooling barrel question?

[Thinlizzy]

Hey guys going to do some shooting in a couple hours. I was curious if you think its a bad idea to try and cool down the barrel in my truck by running the A/C on high?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Thinlizzy

Hey guys going to do some shooting in a couple hours. I was curious if you think its a bad idea to try and cool down the barrel in my truck by running the A/C on high?

N0thing wrong with it at all.
Cat

[Dick284]

I've done that lots.

[tchardy1972]

That's what I do

[New Hunter Okotoks]

What about water soaked rag? I've heard conflicting stories on the idea. My personal thought is that it cools too fast and can affect the metal.

[ghostguy6]

Originally Posted by New Hunter Okotoks

What about water soaked rag? I've heard conflicting stories on the idea. My personal thought is that it cools too fast and can affect the metal.

If you cool it rapidly when it is too hot it can shrink the metal unevenly causing stress points to form in the barrel. Same thing with laying it on the dash of your vehicle with the a/c running through the top vents. Sitting on the seats should be ok since the whole cab should be around an even temperature.

I had to re-quench and temper several rifle barrels for the DND because they supposedly cooled the barrels by pouring water on them from their canteens. Some even showed a upwards bend in them from the extreme contraction of the metal when cooled too fast. Basically if the barrel to to hot to hold in your hands it is best to allow it to air cool naturally.

[tikka250]

once read in a field and stream (or some magazine of the like) to get a bag of ice and put a bore snake (in another bag) inside the ice then when it comes to cooling run the boresnake through a couple times to speed up the process.

[TBD]

I usually shoot until I cannot comfortable keep my hand on the barrel then break for cooling - am I getting the barrel to Hot ?

TBD

[Rman]

Originally Posted by TBD

I usually shoot until I cannot comfortable keep my hand on the barrel then break for cooling - am I getting the barrel to Hot ?

TBD

Not even close.
There is a line between what makes a guy feel comfortable and what can be done. The barrel can, and will glow, but that's way outside what most would like. The hotter it gets, the more wear it is subjected to.
What you practice, is generally accepted by most as an upper limit. It's not a bad indicator to stop.
The barrel can take way more, but at the risk of faster wear.
R.

[Rman]

I had a barrel set up specifically to fire form 243AI brass. I would run hundreds of rounds through it at time. We almost got a cigarette lit from the barrel, just in front of the chamber.
When put against the tire on the truck, it melted a groove in the rubber.
It was left to "cool" for about 10 minutes, and another 150 or so rounds went through as fast as magazines could be loaded and the trigger pulled. It were a two man job. We poured water on it to cool it down before it was put away. That barrel showed 0 signs of throat wear, and still grouped MOA at 2 and 300 yards.

Don't believe everything you read, as most of the info comes straight from the couch.

R.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by TBD

I usually shoot until I cannot comfortable keep my hand on the barrel then break for cooling - am I getting the barrel to Hot ?

TBD

I think you are taking it responsibly.

Really your groupings should be telling you if you're too hot.

I've had some rifles where cold bore, first shot repeatability was extreme, stone cold, every shot into tight groups, anything more than stone cold and your poi changed, albeit the warm shots grouped well enough, but the cold bore shot ( even while fouled) was always off by its self.

This illustrates why the shooter is well served to test and observe how things behave. Recording your findings and noting quirks is the key to increased consistency.

And yes as always, no two rifles are the same, so put in the effort, and you will be rewarded.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Rman

I had a barrel set up specifically to fire form 243AI brass. I would run hundreds of rounds through it at time. We almost got a cigarette lit from the barrel, just in front of the chamber.
When put against the tire on the truck, it melted a groove in the rubber.
It was left to "cool" for about 10 minutes, and another 150 or so rounds went through as fast as magazines could be loaded and the trigger pulled. It were a two man job. We poured water on it to cool it down before it was put away. That barrel showed 0 signs of throat wear, and still grouped MOA at 2 and 300 yards.

Don't believe everything you read, as most of the info comes straight from the couch.

R.

Your test does not prove that getting a barrel smoking hot has no effect. There are dozens of published Military studies discussing the effect of high heat on barrel life. Most modern machine guns are made with quick change barrels for a reason.

Hand hot doesn't hurt, melting grooves in Rubber does. You may not be able to see the throat wear but it is there and at about 8 times the rate 300 rounds would have done at normal firing rates. Real hot steel is softer, it is simple physics, therefore being softer it will wear, flame erode, easier. (Barrels wear out from the flame erosion of the burning gases, bullet wear has little effect on barrel life.)

Air conditioning to cool no problem, barrel hot to touch but no smoking hot, damp rag won't hurt, smoking hot, unless you are in a combat situation, let it cool on its own, and try not to get it that hot again.

[Rman]

All my "test" proves is that information from the couch, isn't all that accurate, as compared to what happens in real life. Would I do that to a barrel on any of my other rifles? Not a chance.
As an FYI, the barrel was looked at with a bore scope, and when I said 0 damage to the throat, I meant it. No cracking, no spalling, no nothing.

R.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Rman

All my "test" proves is that information from the couch, isn't all that accurate, as compared to what happens in real life. Would I do that to a barrel on any of my other rifles? Not a chance.
As an FYI, the barrel was looked at with a bore scope, and when I said 0 damage to the throat, I meant it. No cracking, no spalling, no nothing.

R.

Must have been a Savage...I can't see trying this in any other rifle for the first time

LC

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Rman

All my "test" proves is that information from the couch, isn't all that accurate, as compared to what happens in real life. Would I do that to a barrel on any of my other rifles? Not a chance.
As an FYI, the barrel was looked at with a bore scope, and when I said 0 damage to the throat, I meant it. No cracking, no spalling, no nothing.

R.

I remember seeing Bushrat's, 257wby bbl after less than 100 rounds through it.
The barrel was babied, and not abused. Fire cracking was beginning already.

I find it extremely unlikely that a 243Improved barrel shot till it's to hot to touch on a regular basis shows no fire cracking!

How abouts we put this to bed. Come out and let's have a peek at er.

[TBD]

very helpful information ...

[Rman]

I always find it quite humorous, especially on this forum, that opinions and conjecture from the couch rider, trumps real world experience, and facts. Why do I feel confident that if I had posted that "it was a friends rifle..." or "I read it on the super sniper forum...", or "I ate ice cream before bed last night, and dreamt that..." that no one would question what I have posted?
I have no reason to lie about what happened, and told it exactly the way it happened. Just because it is opposite of what you found to be true, "on your buddies rifle" does not make it false. I have had several people look at the barrel, with different types of bore scope, and they all saw the same thing. What makes you think you would see anything differently, with your naked eye?

R.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Must have been a Savage...I can't see trying this in any other rifle for the first time

LC

It is a Sako barrel. I could not have done what I did with a Savage, as the paper bag of shame I would have had to have worn on my head, would have interfered with the loading and firing of the rifle.

R.

[ghostguy6]

If your getting it that hot then you have significantly weakened the barrel. Most barrels are heat treated to between 45 and 50 HRC. You will notice in figure 2 that the toughness curve drops at the 180 - 500*C range.

Rman this isn't some couch potato science, bore scoping the barrel does not show the metal on the molecular level. Just because you may have gotten your barrel to melt rubber doesn't mean that is hasn't suffered any ill effects on the molecular level. The crystalline structure of the metal would change, if you cooled the barrel fast enough to cause the structure to crack then you are risking serious damage to the barrel if you continue to fire it. Oh and if your insisting on starting an argument about me not knowing what I'm talking about, I have a certificate from the MTI Academy for Heat Treaters.


(Figure 1. The hardness of 4140 steel following tempering. With the low strain rates of a hardness test the curve drops smoothly with increasing tempering temperature.
Ref Metals Handbook, ASM, 9th ed, vol. 1, p469)


(Figure 2. The notch toughness of 4140 steel following tempering. We see the dramatic loss in toughness accompanying tempering in the range spanning 180- 500°C.
Ref Metals Handbook, ASM, 9th ed, vol. 1, p469)

[Rman]

First off, if you read what I wrote, I'm fairly sure I said that I would not do this with any of my other rifles.
Second, I am also sure that there is damage at the molecular level to that particular barrel. I am also quite certain that damage at the molecular level occurs to a barrel, every time someone pulls a trigger. Barrels are heated to well beyond the 180 - 500 degree range you have quoted, every time the rifle is fired. The determining factor is the length of time that heat is put to the steel.
Thirdly, I stated that the hotter the barrel gets, for a longer period of time, the more damage is being done to it, so I am not sure why you would be thinking that I would be arguing with you, when I clearly said what I said, well before you managed to Google up a couple of neat looking graphs, used some big words, and claim that you have a certificate from the MTI Academy for Heat Treaters? Is that a series of online courses available from a late night TV ad?


R.

[Dick284]

Geesh how many guys do you know who own borescopes!

This is a borescope.
http://www.gradientlens.com/Applicat...nShooting.aspx

You do know the only way to put this to bed is to show us.

I have posted my location and urge you come for a visit.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Geesh how many guys do you know who own borescopes!

This is a borescope.
http://www.gradientlens.com/Applicat...nShooting.aspx

You do know the only way to put this to bed is to show us.

I have posted my location and urge you come for a visit.

I know a few, actually.
I am glad to see your google skills are working as well. Congratulations?
If you think I am going to jump in my truck, and drive from Calgary to Drayton Valley to show you a barrel has that has been looked by eyes far more skilled than yours, you really need to give your head a shake.
Maybe eat some ice cream before bed tonight, and see what else you can dream up?

R.

[deanmc]

Originally Posted by Rman

I know a few, actually.
I am glad to see your google skills are working as well. Congratulations?
If you think I am going to jump in my truck, and drive from Calgary to Drayton Valley to show you a barrel has that has been looked by eyes far more skilled than yours, you really need to give your head a shake.
Maybe eat some ice cream before bed tonight, and see what else you can dream up?

R.

It wouldn't matter anyway. If you did show us a perfect throat on a scope we wouldn't believe that it was abused the way you described. No one is going to win this argument. Ever.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by deanmc

It wouldn't matter anyway. If you did show us a perfect throat on a scope we wouldn't believe that it was abused the way you described. No one is going to win this argument. Ever.

Exactly. I do find it unfortunate that when someone comes along that has actually done something, in real life, that those with vivid imaginations try to refute facts.

R.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Rman

Exactly. I do find it unfortunate that when someone comes along that has actually done something, in real life, that those with vivid imaginations try to refute facts.

R.

Your hat size is un believable.
I've been doing, and am still doing.

Maybe since Drayton is too far for you, I could set something up for you to show us how it's done in say Rocky Mtn House. Are ya up for it?
I'll see if a few other couchers can come and show us where it's at!

[Thinlizzy]

Thanks guys by all the responses. Appreciate it a lot will know for next time.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Your hat size is un believable.
I've been doing, and am still doing.

Maybe since Drayton is too far for you, I could set something up for you to show us how it's done in say Rocky Mtn House. Are ya up for it?
I'll see if a few other couchers can come and show us where it's at!

My hat size? Really Dick? Really?
Your imagination is running away with you isn't it?
All you have been doing, is dream, and guess.

What exactly is it that you want me to show you "how it's done"?

Let me get this straight. You expect me, to drive to Rocky, to show you a barrel, so what? You can look at it and tell me what?
Have you even burned out a barrel on a rifle that you owned? Do you even know what one should look like? Or are you going to compare it to "your buddies" barrel? A whole sample of one. Wow!
All I have done is stated facts. I'm really not sure what your issue is, other than I have subjected you to reality, and that conflicts with your imagination.
The fact that you expect me to drive anywhere to show you something that you wouldn't even understand is pure comedy gold.
I'm sure all of your couch riding "buddies" wouldn't have the collective brain trust to ooh and aah over something they have never seen either, let alone tell me what they are looking for, or at. I can assure you, even if I could pull a gear low enough, which I can't, that you, or them, would never come to the conclusion of "where it's at".
I'll let you in on a secret: Reality is where is it at, and in order to experience it, you would have to leave the house.

Stay on your couch, and continue to let your imagination run wild, and try to post about things that have actually happened, not stuff that you guess at. It's the best thing for people that actually get outside and do stuff.

R.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Rman

My hat size? Really Dick? Really?
Your imagination is running away with you isn't it?
All you have been doing, is dream, and guess.

What exactly is it that you want me to show you "how it's done"?

Let me get this straight. You expect me, to drive to Rocky, to show you a barrel, so what? You can look at it and tell me what?
Have you even burned out a barrel on a rifle that you owned? Do you even know what one should look like? Or are you going to compare it to "your buddies" barrel? A whole sample of one. Wow!
All I have done is stated facts. I'm really not sure what your issue is, other than I have subjected you to reality, and that conflicts with your imagination.
The fact that you expect me to drive anywhere to show you something that you wouldn't even understand is pure comedy gold.
I'm sure all of your couch riding "buddies" wouldn't have the collective brain trust to ooh and aah over something they have never seen either, let alone tell me what they are looking for, or at. I can assure you, even if I could pull a gear low enough, which I can't, that you, or them, would never come to the conclusion of "where it's at".
I'll let you in on a secret: Reality is where is it at, and in order to experience it, you would have to leave the house.

Stay on your couch, and continue to let your imagination run wild, and try to post about things that have actually happened, not stuff that you guess at. It's the best thing for people that actually get outside and do stuff.

R.

Big words from a little man!

No walk to your talk.

Bye bye, Mr. Hyper Typer Sniper.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Big words from a little man!

No walk to your talk.

Bye bye, Mr. Hyper Typer Sniper.

Dick. I thought I asked some fairly simple questions, and I see now that they were all well beyond your comprehension.
I feel badly that you are not able to understand the bigger words, but as I said, I'm not able to pull a gear low enough to help you get what I am trying to say.
As for the little part, I assure you that I am quite a bit taller than your 5' 2" frame, although you have me well beat in the girth department.
Answer my questions, or run along back to the couch. Its the only play you have left.

R.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Rman

My hat size? Really Dick? Really?
Your imagination is running away with you isn't it?
All you have been doing, is dream, and guess.

What exactly is it that you want me to show you "how it's done"?

Let me get this straight. You expect me, to drive to Rocky, to show you a barrel, so what? You can look at it and tell me what?
Have you even burned out a barrel on a rifle that you owned? Do you even know what one should look like? Or are you going to compare it to "your buddies" barrel? A whole sample of one. Wow!
All I have done is stated facts. I'm really not sure what your issue is, other than I have subjected you to reality, and that conflicts with your imagination.
The fact that you expect me to drive anywhere to show you something that you wouldn't even understand is pure comedy gold.
I'm sure all of your couch riding "buddies" wouldn't have the collective brain trust to ooh and aah over something they have never seen either, let alone tell me what they are looking for, or at. I can assure you, even if I could pull a gear low enough, which I can't, that you, or them, would never come to the conclusion of "where it's at".
I'll let you in on a secret: Reality is where is it at, and in order to experience it, you would have to leave the house.

Stay on your couch, and continue to let your imagination run wild, and try to post about things that have actually happened, not stuff that you guess at. It's the best thing for people
that actually get outside and do stuff.

R.

Ill call your bs and ive melted many barrels please explain how you close a breach that can near light a smoke . Ive set blast curtains on fire multiple times. See a hunting rifle has no cooling of any kind, I suggest that a barrel with "hundreds of rounds thru as fast as you can reload " please explain what other issues you encountered a few come to mind . I dont care if its a sako or a savage they all work on the same princaple care to explain that principle.