TSX preformance

[Deki10]

I picked up a box and will be going to the range this weekend, I will post the results! Thanks for all the information and comments

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by roger

a 257wby at 3650 fps they function like a full metal jacket at 100 and under.

Holy Crap Rog......I'm just over 3300. How is your case wear and what's your recipe

At 6ft a 115gr tsx travelling at just over 3300fps will travel the full length of a 150lb black bear and can be found protruding from the bottom of its rear foot pad. There will be no petals left on the bullet

Not sure if that helps the discussion but it sure scared the bejeezuz out of me.

tm

At 6ft a 115gr tsx travelling at just over 3300fps will travel the full length of a 150lb black bear and can be found protruding from the bottom of its rear foot pad. There will be no petals left on the bullet

Not sure if that helps the discussion but it sure scared the bejeezuz out of me.

LOL, ya that's what I found as well. At close range the expansion was super violent and quick. If you are going to recover one, it's likely going to be at very close range and in that case, you are likely to find petals ripped off. The faster the velocity, the faster the expansion in my experience.

[Chet]

Interestingly, the one bullet I recovered was from a sub 10 yard shot from the .338, telling my that high velocity expansion is particularly violent

Any petals left on that one Sheephunter?

[Double Shovel]

Hey TJ did you weigh the recovered bullets?Did they retain all their weight?I use them in my .35 Whelen 200grTSX and it has taken four bears,one elk and a white-tail.I only recovered the one form the elk and it was a 180yd shot and she was below me a little facing away and I drove one right through her tail bone and it travelled up trough a lung and we found it.After going through her tail bone and travelling through the softer tissues,it retained all its' weight.
I was also down range at my place and actually found a TSX that hit the metal gong at 200yds and weighed it and it as well was still 200grs.They are impressive bullets.I heard now that other manufactures have come up with all copper bullets so hopefully Barnes will get competitive and maybe the price will come down somewhat.
As far as the one hole versus the two hole debate,I look at it this way,say you have a water leak in the basement,do you think one hole in the pipe would do more damge than two holes in your pipe?Surprisingly enough the four bears and one deer that were shot with complete pass throughs from the TSX died quicker than the elk.

Originally Posted by Chet

Any petals left on that one Sheephunter?

Impressively, only one ripped off. Considering a 225 grain bullet traveling over 2,800fps and delivering 4,000lbs of energy came to a stop in less than three feet, it's amazing it survived at all. It's the large performance envelope of these bullets that really impressed me.

Originally Posted by Double Shovel

Hey TJ did you weigh the recovered bullets?Did they retain all their weight?

No I haven't yet but I'd suspect the one is in the high 90% range. The other one shed a petal so it would be a bit lower but still quite impressive.

Surprisingly enough the four bears and one deer that were shot with complete pass throughs from the TSX died quicker than the elk.

Nothing surprising there, it's the hole and not the energy that kills.

[Double Shovel]

I agree

[Traps]

Close range (higher velocity) versus long range (lower velocity):

Its about how velocity relates to expansion (ie cross sectional area increases) so at higher velocity the bullet expands more giving it a larger cross sectional area and therefore creates more resistance and it imparts more energy onto the animal. This is why a 300 win mag will damge meat more so than a 300 savage with the same bullet. Big hole versus small hole.

With the barnes tsx they tend to lose their petals at around 2700 fps and up, once they lose their petals their cross sectional area now becomes the original diameter of the bullet. The bullet acts like a solid thereby improving its penetrating capabilites even though it has lost some of its weight. The tsx bullets are great because even if you want them at higher velocities where petal shearing will occur it will offer an initial energy unloading and then penetrate like a solid giving you two holes.

I did some penetration tests on two different non lead bullets, the barnes 210 grain tsx and the nosler etips 200 grain in 338 cal. The 210 tsx's were at 2550 fps and the 200 grain noslers were at 2700 fps. I found the noslers expanded a lot more even though they were 150 fps more. I would have to say looking at the crater in the 5/8" thick steel they hit, the 200 grain etips would be better at expansion then the barnes but not as good penetration wise. The crater with the nosler's were very large. I am of the opinion where I would want more energy unloaded in the animal cause I wait for broadside shots and would want expansion on soft tissue. If going for the quartering away shot the tsx would be dandy. The noslers in most if not all their offerings show a higher ballistic coefficient then the barnes, field performance wise, well thats still up to the user to determine what they want.

For the guys looking at using the barnes tsx in their 7mm-08 use the ttsx, they have better B.C.'s then the tsx. I use the 120 grain ttsx, they have a B.C. of 0.373 and at max load this last weekend I got 3200 fps out of her, the best load was at 3050 fps and resulted in three shots that fit in a quarter. Good long range rig IMO cause at 3050 fps the MPBR is 293 yards and at 450 yards still moving at 2000 fps. Even if your gun is giving you 100 fps less your still looking at a high velocity load long range rig thats able to offer great performance to 450 yards.

[TangoKilo]

Ok,
As promised, the Expanded 140Gr TSX from a cow Moose.






Traps,

Are you attempting to relate the penetration of the Barnes and Nosler bullets in steel to their penetration on game?
Possibly I'm missing something?

Its about how velocity relates to expansion (ie cross sectional area increases) so at higher velocity the bullet expands more giving it a larger cross sectional area and therefore creates more resistance and it imparts more energy onto the animal. This is why a 300 win mag will damge meat more so than a 300 savage with the same bullet. Big hole versus small hole.

That theory may hold true with some traditional jacketed bullets and pure lead bullets, but due to the design and weight retention of the TSX, expansion varies little within its performance envelope. The way the petals open on the TSX limits its expanded diameter. At the high or low end end of that performance envelope (roughly a 1,000-1,200 fps range), you'll see about 2.1-2.3 times expansion. On a .338 bullet for example, you might see a 25-30/1,000 difference in expansion from point blank to 400 yards.

[AB2506]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Amazing performance IMO...the lungs were horrible and the meat damage was minimal.

Exactly the performance I have seen with the 115gr TSX in 25-06 on a WT buck I shot on the point of shoulder. Buck was at 42yds, and bullet exited in front of off hip. Buck never even twitched, just fell over dead. Little bloodshot meat. 1" tunnel right through deer.

[Cowtown guy]

I have been shooting them for 4 years now and I love them. Seat them a little farther off the lands than normal and the groups seem to come tighter.
I have never been disappointed with the performance on game. The insides literally look like jello when cleaning. In the event of a severe quartering angle they drive thru more than the average bullet in my opinion.
I won't change and am in the process of working up a load for the 120's for my 7mm-08.

[roger]

Originally Posted by roger

barnes triples are the stuff
one concern ive found is...a 257wby at 3650 fps they function like a full metal jacket at 100 and under.
but since its impossible to build a bullet that does everything for every velocity at every distance and every condition AND for a fair price.
i still give them a thumbs up
good luck with yer 300wsm

whoops my slip...should have reread a little better
i should have added "my 257wby at 3650 fps they function like a full metal jacket at 100 and under this is the effect on smaller animals like coyotes wolf.



tundramonkey,, im using 100gr with a dose of imr4831. so much for bbl life

At 2,800, they blow a hole the size of your fist out the side of a jackal. Definitely not conducive to saving pelts. I haven't tried them out of the STW on coyotes but now you have me curious.

From what I've seen a stiff breeze will make them expand at high velocity.

[elkhunter11]

A 180gr TSX recovered after penetrating a few feel of elk.All four petals were intact,and the remaining weight was 180gr.The bullet was launched out of a 300RUM at 3380fps,and the impact velocity is estimated to be around 3000fps.

[roger]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I haven't tried them out of the STW on coyotes but now you have me curious.From what I've seen a stiff breeze will make them expand at high velocity.

basically, there just isnt enough 'back stop' to offer any resistance at super high velocites.
a coyote is about 5-6" thick when broadside. a wolf maybe 8-10"?
im sure it started to expand...but at 3600fps, it has already exited the animal before it reached its potential.
i called a wolf to 32 yards and the skin had 1/4" holes that showed minimal signs of expansion.
did it die, yes.
rattled in 160 whitetail at 25 yards quartering to me...went down like it was struck by litening.
im a big fan of TsX's. ive just found what i consider to be the problem with this particular combo a lite critter rig.
sorry for taking the thread elsewhere
maybe some more 'feild studies' are required

[catnthehat]

All this tech talk about TSX performance or lack thereof is fun, but it's pretty well a moot point from where I stand.
Here's what my experience has been and also the majority of what I have read from people who also have used them.
1: load up a bunch of cases to spec and head to range.
2" zero gun with rounds .050 off the lands and be happy with results
3: see critter ( insert favourite critter here) while hunting and get ready for action - range dependant on the hunter.
4: shoot critter dead - USUALLY a "bang Flop" and smack each other on the back and expound the virtues of the TSX!:
That about sums it up for me!
Cat

[nube]

Roger, I have had the same results with the 7mm stw 140 gr at 3470fps. Small hole in and out of most coyotes. Shot one once at 60-80 yards right through the lungs. Did not hit bone. Very small hole in and out and I thought I missed because the thing ran 100 yards before it keeled over. I was surprised and thought I missed. Watched it runs and was in amazement when it fell over.

[209x50]

I like the bullet to stay in the critter - just so I get it back! LOL

[prarie_boy1]

Cat pretty much said it! I was having a hard time working up a load that would shoot MOA in my custom rem 700 and was getting so worked up I nearly sold the gun. Bought a box of 165 grain tsx and loaded them up with 57.0 grains of 4350 .050 of the lands first grouping was 3/4 of an inch fired a few more groups over the next week then went and bought 200$ worth of em at wholesale sports and haven't looked back!

[Traps]

Originally Posted by TangoKilo

Traps,

Are you attempting to relate the penetration of the Barnes and Nosler bullets in steel to their penetration on game?
Possibly I'm missing something?

Its comparative testing, as long as the test medium is the same for both types of bullets then the reference that can be made is one bullet versus another no matter what the medium. A bullet that will penetrate more in bone will penetrate more in steel than another bullet construction. Obviously bone isn't going to perform the same as steel but the general terminal characteristics can be inferred from it. What I saw in my plate tests were validated in this guys test results showing some "real world testing". It compares the ET (etip) and the TSX in terminal performance in phonebooks.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...1/nt/4/fpart/1

Have a read, its some good info.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Traps

Its comparative testing, as long as the test medium is the same for both types of bullets then the reference that can be made is one bullet versus another no matter what the medium. A bullet that will penetrate more in bone will penetrate more in steel than another bullet construction. Obviously bone isn't going to perform the same as steel but the general terminal characteristics can be inferred from it. What I saw in my plate tests were validated in this guys test results showing some "real world testing". It compares the ET (etip) and the TSX in terminal performance in phonebooks.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...1/nt/4/fpart/1

Have a read, its some good info.

Steel can give weird indications of bullet performance.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That theory may hold true with some traditional jacketed bullets and pure lead bullets, but due to the design and weight retention of the TSX, expansion varies little within its performance envelope. The way the petals open on the TSX limits its expanded diameter. At the high or low end end of that performance envelope (roughly a 1,000-1,200 fps range), you'll see about 2.1-2.3 times expansion. On a .338 bullet for example, you might see a 25-30/1,000 difference in expansion from point blank to 400 yards.

Sheephunter, the performance envelope is better no doubt at its upper and lower velocity range for the tsx than other bullets types. For one they hold together better and retain their mass. I have to disagree with you on 2.1-2.3 times expansion, here I assume your talking diameter and not area. Diameter is linear and area is squared. In the bullet testing link provided in my last post the diameter of the 150 grain .308 etip is 0.685" and travels 10" in phonebooks, the tsx is 0.620" in diameter and travels 15". How does one explain the large difference in distance travelled? They only have a 0.065" difference in diameter, but just like a hydraulic cylinder, small changes in the size of a piston creates large changes in the force the cylinder can output. In much the same fashion, its the area of the bullet that determines its resistance or its terminal performance. When you do the area comparison its a difference of 22% between 0.685" and 0.620".

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Traps

Sheephunter, the performance envelope is better no doubt at its upper and lower velocity range for the tsx than other bullets types. For one they hold together better and retain their mass. I have to disagree with you on 2.1-2.3 times expansion, here I assume your talking diameter and not area. Diameter is linear and area is squared. In the bullet testing link provided in my last post the diameter of the 150 grain .308 etip is 0.685" and travels 10" in phonebooks, the tsx is 0.620" in diameter and travels 15". How does one explain the large difference in distance travelled? They only have a 0.065" difference in diameter, but just like a hydraulic cylinder, small changes in the size of a piston creates large changes in the force the cylinder can output. In much the same fashion, its the area of the bullet that determines its resistance or its terminal performance. When you do the area comparison its a difference of 22% between 0.685" and 0.620".

The difference in penetration has to do with the amount of expansion and how quickly the bullet expands. A bullet with a large expansion cavity like the E-Tip goes through most of it's expansion with in the first couple of inches of impact at these speeds. Also the E-Tip has more metal in the frontal area of the mushroom than the TSX and this creates more resistance. Because the E-Tip expands to a larger diameter earlier in the penetration cycle than the TSX it can't penetrate as far. By design the TSX can't expand as large as the E-Tip. That is not a negative in my view, both bullets do a great job of killing.
Steel and phone books are both terrible bullet testing media in my opinion. After having shot hundreds of bullets into ballistic gel and shot the same bullets into wood, phone books and other materials I can't agree that any reliable conclusions can be drawn from the phone book tests.

[Mad_Mikee]

Like PrairieBoy, I've been using the 186gr TSX out of my 30-06 for a couple of years now. I'm using 58gr of H4350 but I also have another load using AA2520.

The load is accurate and seems to hit really hard.

The only issue that I have is that I plan on shooting deer around the 200-250yard range but more times than not, the deer end up being around 100 yards.

The damage is always massive which is an issue. The bullet is probably doign what it needs to do but for shooting deer at 100 yards, a TSX out of my 30-06 just seems like too much bullet/gun.

I wouldnt think twice about using the load for shooting a moose or elk but on smaller game like deer, just too much damage for me.

My hunting partner shoots a plain old 270 with remington core-lokts and there is never near the damage I cause. He's not a gun type of guy like me and doesnt enjoy the fooling around or tinkering with loads.

End of the season last year I picked up a 7mm-08 which I'm going to use for deer this year. Figure it might be a little easier on them. I'll still keep my 30-06 if I plan on shooting something a big bigger or tougher until I get my 35 Whelen built.

I have to disagree with you on 2.1-2.3 times expansion, here I assume your talking diameter and not area.

Of course I'm talking diameter. As the TSX expands with 4 distinct petals in the same pattern every time, it seems a prudent way to measure it. Jacketed bullets do not expand uniformly, as their expansion is not controled in the same manner as the TSX. As there are gaps between the open petals and not a mushroon shape like that of a traditional jacketed bullet, I'm not certain you can measure area without a very complex set of measurements. The frontal area of an expanded TSX is much less than that of a traditional jacketed bullet expanded to the same diameter.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the hydraulic cylinder comparison. Penetration in a TSX has far more to do with rate of expansion than anything else. At high velocities it expands very rapidly, thus reducing its penetration. Frontal area size plays a very minor role in depth of penetration with a TSX when compared to rate of expansion.


As for TSX retaining mass better at their upper and lower performance velocities, again not from what I've seen. Unless impact happens above 2,800 fps, weight retention is likely to be virtually identical from 2,800fps to 0 fps. The only way a TSX sheds weight, unlike traditional jacketed bullets, is when pieces break off and this only seems to occur at high velocities where expansion is very rapid.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The difference in penetration has to do with the amount of expansion and how quickly the bullet expands. A bullet with a large expansion cavity like the E-Tip goes through most of it's expansion with in the first couple of inches of impact at these speeds. Also the E-Tip has more metal in the frontal area of the mushroom than the TSX and this creates more resistance. Because the E-Tip expands to a larger diameter earlier in the penetration cycle than the TSX it can't penetrate as far. By design the TSX can't expand as large as the E-Tip. That is not a negative in my view, both bullets do a great job of killing.
Steel and phone books are both terrible bullet testing media in my opinion. After having shot hundreds of bullets into ballistic gel and shot the same bullets into wood, phone books and other materials I can't agree that any reliable conclusions can be drawn from the phone book tests.

I agree with what you say except the last part about testing medium, I guess to each their own. That was a good write up on the two bullet's designs.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Of course I'm talking diameter. As the TSX expands with 4 distinct petals in the same pattern every time, it seems a prudent way to measure it. Jacketed bullets do not expand uniformly, as their expansion is not controled in the same manner as the TSX. As there are gaps between the open petals and not a mushroon shape like that of a traditional jacketed bullet, I'm not certain you can measure area without a very complex set of measurements. The frontal area of an expanded TSX is much less than that of a traditional jacketed bullet expanded to the same diameter.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the hydraulic cylinder comparison. Penetration in a TSX has far more to do with rate of expansion than anything else. At high velocities it expands very rapidly, thus reducing its penetration. Frontal area size plays a very minor role in depth of penetration with a TSX when compared to rate of expansion.

As for TSX retaining mass better at their upper and lower performance velocities, again not from what I've seen. Unless impact happens above 2,800 fps, weight retention is likely to be virtually identical from 2,800fps to 0 fps. The only way a TSX sheds weight, unlike traditional jacketed bullets, is when pieces break off and this only seems to occur at high velocities where expansion is very rapid.

The e-tip is not a jacketed bullet and it expands much in the same way as the tsx just to a lesser degree. See the picture, etip is the left one, barnes is the right one. The great thing about the all copper bullets is they are homogonous, so they are more liable to expand uniformly then a bullet with two distinct materials. A traditional jacketed bullet even though it is difficult to measure surface area one would still have to look at that to determine its terminal performance. I too think its too hard to do for all pratical purposes.

What I was trying to explain with the hydraulic cylinder example is penetration would depend on force per unit area or psi. Comparing two different expanded bullets the one with lower contact pressure (larger area would) penetrate less than the higher contact pressure (smaller area).
Any bullet would expand more rapidly at velocities in the higher end of its designed range thereby reducing its penetration. And yes expansion rate would also play a key role in penetration.

I agree with you on TSX shedding petals above 2800 fps, somewhere I said that before but its only within its designed range of velocity its mass is retained.

But as the hydralic cylinder is not pushing an expanding object or an object that expands at varing rates, the comparison really is there.

I'm aware the E-tip is not a jacketed bullet and from my experience, it actually expands more than the TSX as it is designed to do. The E-Tip was built in response to those that were complaining about over penetration with the TSX and want a bullet to remain in the body cavity and not pass through. It doesn't always achieve this but does more often than the TSX.