6.5 Grendel vs 308 Win

[Beeman3]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

x2. Lost all credibility when he commented that energy and momentum don't mean anything when it comes to a dead animal.

I agree with you on that. Every one of these threads lacks FT-LBS on target. That is why I have posted direct numbers from my 6.5X47 compared to my 300 Win Mag. Funny how I never get a reply after posting these numbers on threads that are titled "COMPARED" to. Kind of surprised more guys don't post up actual numbers from there loads. Instead of bickering post up some hard numbers to make actual comparisons. When my 300 Win Mag at 200 yds has more than 1500 ft-lbs of energy compared to my 6.5X47 I say enough said! 300 Win Mag has about the same energy at 750 yds (2047 ft-lbs) as the X47 does at 200 yds (2001.1 ft-lbs). Also my 6.5X47 is no slouch, it runs 130 Bergers at 2950 fps.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

I agree with you on that. Every one of these threads lacks FT-LBS on target. That is why I have posted direct numbers from my 6.5X47 compared to my 300 Win Mag. Funny how I never get a reply after posting these numbers on threads that are titled "COMPARED" to. Kind of surprised more guys don't post up actual numbers from there loads. Instead of bickering post up some hard numbers to make actual comparisons. When my 300 Win Mag at 200 yds has more than 1500 ft-lbs of energy compared to my 6.5X47 I say enough said! 300 Win Mag has about the same energy at 750 yds (2047 ft-lbs) as the X47 does at 200 yds (2001.1 ft-lbs). Also my 6.5X47 is no slouch, it runs 130 Bergers at 2950 fps.

I used ft/lbs when comparing the Creedmoor (143gr eldx .293 SD) to the 308 (178gr eldx .268 SD), and used the 1000ft/lb minimum along with the 1500fps minimum as a guideline for what I figured would be an approximate max distance for the bullet to function as designed on deer sized game. At 500yds the creed is still is traveling about 2030fps and had about 1308ftlbs of force using 143gr eldx based on a 24” barrel, the 308 was traveling at 1846fps and had 1346ft/lbs of force.

I got my information from hornady’s website. I think it makes a good comparison between the two.


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I used ft/lbs when comparing the Creedmoor (143gr eldx .293 SD) to the 308 (178gr eldx .268 SD), and used the 1000ft/lb minimum along with the 1500fps minimum as a guideline for what I figured would be an approximate max distance for the bullet to function as designed on deer sized game. At 500yds the creed is still is traveling about 2030fps and had about 1308ftlbs of force using 143gr eldx based on a 24” barrel, the 308 was traveling at 1846fps and had 1346ft/lbs of force.

I got my information from hornady’s website. I think it makes a good comparison between the two.


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...sion-hunter#!/

You provide facts Kurt. Lots others just provide opinions and cherry pick what data they want to show. Both sides are guilty for doing this. Kinda like our government but that's another discussion. haha.

[Beeman3]

Not a bad comparison Kurt. I like to see actual numbers. With the 143 getting heavy for Caliber, I’d like to see a heavier 30 cal bullet used to compare the two. But I do realize lots of guys don’t reload. For example lots of guys over on LRH forum run 215 Berger in a 308. Friend of mine shoots the 225 ELD-M out of his 308. Really changes the numbers when you load for the heavies. This really all boils down to everything has a limit. Stay within what the gun can do and it will work. I like to use a higher impact velocity of 1800 fps to determine my max range. I feel it’s a safer bet for expansion. But if guys are getting good results on game with 1500 fps, who am I to argue.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

Not a bad comparison Kurt. I like to see actual numbers. With the 143 getting heavy for Caliber, I’d like to see a heavier 30 cal bullet used to compare the two. But I do realize lots of guys don’t reload. For example lots of guys over on LRH forum run 215 Berger in a 308. Friend of mine shoots the 225 ELD-M out of his 308. Really changes the numbers when you load for the heavies. This really all boils down to everything has a limit. Stay within what the gun can do and it will work. I like to use a higher impact velocity of 1800 fps to determine my max range. I feel it’s a safer bet for expansion. But if guys are getting good results on game with 1500 fps, who am I to argue.

What’s the oal on a 225gr 308 bullet? That’s gotta be scraping the mag box, lol.

The 1500fps/1000ft/lb ratio is just sort of a common number I’ve seen used. Personally I doubt I’d shoot anything over 400yds with a Creedmoor. Admitting to your actual shooting ability is a bigger factor than the cartridge. I’m pretty sure my rifles exceed my ability under most Hunting conditions, and I’m ok with admitting that.

[Beeman3]

I know all my Rifles out do my capabilities! The Creed in the right hands will go way farther than 400. My 6.5x47 with a 130 Berger is good out to 750 yds on deer size game. That’s were I hit 1800 fps and just under 1000 ft-lbs. never tried it. But would under ideal conditions. I’ll look into the overall length on the 225 gr load.

[Don_Parsons]

Two option for seating bullets long for 308 Winny's

Single feed by hand, or convert long action to handle the bullets,,, the majority F Class group of shooters feed singles,,, that allows us to set bullet to JAM,,, or just off the lands for jump.

Sometimes I load long or short for my sporter unit.

My Ought 6 allows me to seat long past Sammi spec,,, it allows for only a few more grains of charge.

Of course this for the longer bullets.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Two option for seating bullets long for 308 Winny's

Single feed by hand, or convert long action to handle the bullets,,, the majority F Class group of shooters feed singles,,, that allows us to set bullet to JAM,,, or just off the lands for jump.

Sometimes I load long or short for my sporter unit.

My Ought 6 allows me to seat long past Sammi spec,,, it allows for only a few more grains of charge.

Of course this for the longer bullets.

Using a single feed or modified rifle for hunting to have the ability to shoot heavy for caliber bullets isn’t exactly practical or convienient, that’s part of the improved design of the Creedmoor. One of the small improvements in the design of the Creedmoor that I’ve been talking about. Simply buy a rifle, walk into Canadian tire or Walmart and buy a box of bullets and go hunting. A lot of people see this as a marketing scheme, or rather don’t see this and think it’s a marketing scheme. Try to explain it and get called a fanboy, lol.

[Beeman3]

That’s why the Creed is so popular. Great factory ammo and lots of factory rifles. Nothing wrong with that at all. Had Lapua had a fancy/catchy name for the 6.5x47 with factory ammo and companies producing guns, I think it would of been way more popular. I’m ok with the x47 not being as popular as the Creed. I don’t mind having a gun that most don’t have.

[catnthehat]

Comparing the 6.5 CM to my hunting cartridge would be laughable at best .
The bottom line however is that at 300 yards ( which is the max distance I shoot my favourite hunting rifle at) makes no difference at all as far as terminal ballistics go .
Fir hunting purposes a flat shooting cartridge is a moot point as my rifle us accurate at the ranges I shoot it at and I use a range finder for the longer distances
My service rifle competitions I competed in would disallow this cartridge in my class as well.
So it comes down to match shooting .
I know full well what my 308’s and .223’s are capable of in my chosen discipline but I am not about to compare anything until I get at least 500 to 1,000 rounds through the Creedmoor - two or three 5 round targets are not enough to form an opinion on anything as far as I am concerned
Cat

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

That’s why the Creed is so popular. Great factory ammo and lots of factory rifles. Nothing wrong with that at all. Had Lapua had a fancy/catchy name for the 6.5x47 with factory ammo and companies producing guns, I think it would of been way more popular. I’m ok with the x47 not being as popular as the Creed. I don’t mind having a gun that most don’t have.

Agreed. One of the main reasons I bought the Creedmoor is because I already own the red headed stepchild 280ai, I wanted something that was cheap and easy to shoot.

[Beeman3]

Friends 225 eld load for his FTR rifle. Barrel was throated to seat bullet out farther. COAL of 3.148” 9 twist Bartlein 30”, 2530 fps. 500 yds is 1973 fps with 1945.1 ft-lbs. 1000 yds is 1511.6 fps with 1141.5 ft-lbs. turns the 308 into a 1000 yd big game gun. Not buying one like that off the shelf. But that’s the fun part of building your own gun to your specs. Sure gets expensive though.

[Don_Parsons]

Same for me, no need for me to ammo when I can make my own.

Yes, if people want to buy ready made ammo, those options are out there.

If I load long, no big deal since I have time to throw in the next round, if I'm hunting,,, I run then stock.

Both work fine.

I do like the long seated bullets for competion,,, a couple of feet faster out of the 32" pipe.

What a dream to shot, Ha. My hunting partners said I'm easy to spot coming up the cut line with the land canon. Ha.

Plus I can use the long pipe as a flag pole.

Oh Canada, LA LA LA LA LA.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

I agree with you on that. Every one of these threads lacks FT-LBS on target. That is why I have posted direct numbers from my 6.5X47 compared to my 300 Win Mag. Funny how I never get a reply after posting these numbers on threads that are titled "COMPARED" to. Kind of surprised more guys don't post up actual numbers from there loads. Instead of bickering post up some hard numbers to make actual comparisons. When my 300 Win Mag at 200 yds has more than 1500 ft-lbs of energy compared to my 6.5X47 I say enough said! 300 Win Mag has about the same energy at 750 yds (2047 ft-lbs) as the X47 does at 200 yds (2001.1 ft-lbs). Also my 6.5X47 is no slouch, it runs 130 Bergers at 2950 fps.

Ft/lbs energy is like a soother, nobody wants to let go of it. Momentum is interesting number but it’s just tied into and part of the sd equation, it only confuses people more but isn’t a factor that makes a difference. Bell/1100 elephants, 700 nitro express, little wee 1500 ft/lbs vs 8000...little one getting into brain pans the giant killer wasn’t. Hence...different numbers matter, impact velocities and sd...providing the obvious that bullet construction appropriate for game intended.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

Friends 225 eld load for his FTR rifle. Barrel was throated to seat bullet out farther. COAL of 3.148” 9 twist Bartlein 30”, 2530 fps. 500 yds is 1973 fps with 1945.1 ft-lbs. 1000 yds is 1511.6 fps with 1141.5 ft-lbs. turns the 308 into a 1000 yd big game gun. Not buying one like that off the shelf. But that’s the fun part of building your own gun to your specs. Sure gets expensive though.

Brilliant build!!! .777 bc and .339 sd! That a Grendel on roids. Grendel velocity but better than heavy Lapua bc so didly for wind drift and holds its velocity like no other. I will run numbers on that! What a bullet. Recoil will be up there though.

[Don_Parsons]

Yes that's correct, our 308's are a twin to what Bell used, they are very capable of harvesting elephant and big game here in our Americas,,, might be wize to practic the Bell shot like we do at the farm on cattle. Ha

Good and close between the ears,,, or slip one up from the back side.

Yuppers, find a rifle and cartrage that suits your needs and get at it,,, 243, Grendel, 6.5, 25/06, 270, 308, or old school Ought 6,,, and many other awesome calibers.

Good times come to folks that enjoy the great outdoors and share in it with like minded people.

Ye Ha.

[Eagle Trapper]

https://www.landtechnik-online.eu/oj...nload/717/1193

Hopefully the link works. While it may not be apples to apples, force exerted into the skull was my main concern when choosing a caliber for mobile butchering.

[Don_Parsons]

We took care of our own cattle dispatching at our feed lot for years, now we higher it out.

Our butcher takes care of the full meal deal.

About 20 to 40 ft, a quick whistle as the steer looks him down,,, the small pop from the 22-250 head long drops them instantly.

Mine you that's he's pretty fast with the knife to finishing things fast. X the ears to eyes,,, lights out.

I final finished the Bell story,,, I bet he wished he could of lived longer to see his dream come true.

This is what he wrote in his last days:

However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight.

Even Bell knew that better cartrages were been offered, the 308 would of been one of those cartrages back in those days.

Whoops, forgot to add,,, Bell needed more than 1 shot to put most elephants down,,, it took 1200 rounds to dispach 800 of them.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Ft/lbs energy is like a soother, nobody wants to let go of it. Momentum is interesting number but it’s just tied into and part of the sd equation, it only confuses people more but isn’t a factor that makes a difference. Bell/1100 elephants, 700 nitro express, little wee 1500 ft/lbs vs 8000...little one getting into brain pans the giant killer wasn’t. Hence...different numbers matter, impact velocities and sd...providing the obvious that bullet construction appropriate for game intended.

You shoot full metal jackets at big game and let us know how it works out. There is a reason the army is only allowed to use FMJ and it’s not because it penetrates more. Have a read and report back. Penetration doesn’t mean anything if the energy is spent outside the animal. You want as much energy as you can in the animal. You don’t have penetration without energy. You don’t have movement without energy. You don’t have damage without momentum. Maybe you don’t understand physics but you don’t have penetration without energy. You can have the largest SD in the world. Doesn’t mean anything if you don’t have energy. Pick up that high SD bullet and toss it at a person. It will barely hurt. Shoot them with a 22 and I can guarantee it will hurt more.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Brilliant build!!! .777 bc and .339 sd! That a Grendel on roids. Grendel velocity but better than heavy Lapua bc so didly for wind drift and holds its velocity like no other. I will run numbers on that! What a bullet. Recoil will be up there though.

F/TR rifles are neither light nor designed as hunting rifles so recoil is not nearly as big a factor as in a hunting rifle
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

F/TR rifles are neither light nor designed as hunting rifles so recoil is not nearly as big a factor as in a hunting rifle
Cat

I’d prolly never choose to hunt with it but I can sure drool over the numbers!

Andrew, I’m so aware of all that and agree with most of it. Some pretty key stuff though you’re wrong. Penetration doesn’t happen without impact velocity and sd...bullet construction plays its part.

Well aware that fmj for elephants is extreme needs, skulls etc. Well aware that our game we prefer the results of controlled expansion bullets...we aim for the softer bits usually and much smaller animals. You will not be able to teach me something here as I feel like you’re just getting started, no offence meant. Greater energy and diam. may give you bit bigger holes and wound channels. But penetration can suffer if you don’t keep that sd up.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

F/TR rifles are neither light nor designed as hunting rifles so recoil is not nearly as big a factor as in a hunting rifle
Cat

Gad I like that .777 bc and .339 sd...match that sd in 6mm you’d need 140 grains and the 6.5 would need to be 165 grains, and use the creedmoor case. 6 twist? Fantasy bullets lol

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Ft/lbs energy is like a soother, nobody wants to let go of it.

It is physically impossible to do so is why. If something moves it has Kinetic Energy associated with it. This is a fundamental law of physics. It can not be ignored or dismissed.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Momentum is interesting number but it’s just tied into and part of the sd equation, it only confuses people more but isn’t a factor that makes a difference.

This statement contradict s the first as momentum is a measurement of energy. You are dismissing it in one sentence and are intrigued by it in the next. Make up your mind.

As for it being part of the Sectional Density calculation this is again false. Sectional density is a unitless number defined by the frontal area and mass of the projectile. Nothing to do with Energy, Momentum, or Velocity.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Bell/1100 elephants 700 nitro express, little wee 1500 ft/lbs vs 8000...little one getting into brain pans the giant killer wasn’t.

This is just making a statement of it can be done. Sure and I can kill a grizzly with a 22LR doesn't make it a smart decision. There is a reason you are no longer allowed to hunt dangerous game with small calibers(in most places). Bell was not your average joe and should not be imitated.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Hence...different numbers matter, impact velocities and sd...providing the obvious that bullet construction appropriate for game intended.

I don't think anybody will say these numbers do not mean anything. But they are only part of the equation. You can not disregard one because it doesn't agree with your perspective.


In the end nobody is really disagreeing that the 6.5's are not a good option for most of Albert's big game. The vast majority are just annoyed of the over evaluation of them in these threads. Combine that with some questionable information/facts presented. Sprinkle on some argumentative stubborn defenders, and you get an absolute poop show.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Well aware that fmj for elephants is extreme needs, skulls etc. Well aware that our game we prefer the results of controlled expansion bullets...we aim for the softer bits usually and much smaller animals. You will not be able to teach me something here as I feel like you’re just getting started, no offence meant. Greater energy and diam. may give you bit bigger holes and wound channels. But penetration can suffer if you don’t keep that sd up.

I'm just getting started? At what , the study of ballistics?
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Well the misinformation and misunderstanding is an issue. So that’s part. Momentum and energy are present but aren’t the important factors in determining penetration ability. A needle vs a baseball.

I don’t use bell as an example of what we should do. I use the data as example of what the numbers really mean and what numbers to actually use for comparison and determining what will work for you. It’s about educating. We keep teaching energy and momentum...mostly energy, as gospel and a huge deciding factor. When it’s useless factor in predicting likely performance.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I'm just getting started? At what , the study of ballistics?
Cat

No cat, that reply wasn’t meant for you, you’ve got an exceptional handle on it all.

[catnthehat]

I hate computers!!.
Cat

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Well the misinformation and misunderstanding is an issue. So that’s part. Momentum and energy are present but aren’t the important factors in determining penetration ability.

You did not present them and you even went as far as to say on numerous occasions that they are irrelevant. If you can't even keep your statement the same who is ever going to take you serious?

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

A needle vs a baseball.

This statement holds no credence what so ever. If both are assumed to be non deformable. With enough force either will penetrate.




Try a needle vs a needle. I can balance a needle on my hand and not be harmed. If I push on that balance needle it will penetrate through my hand. Exact same needle Exact same starting velocity. What forced the needle into my hand?

[Don_Parsons]

One needs to be wize choosing numbers and math when it comes to hunting and shooting forums.

That's why I would never call this out on a public forum.

If a person flip flops back and forth with in their own math,,, then credibility goes out to door.

I remember some of it from my old school days,,, I put it to rest when I bought my first 30/06,,, then I forgot all about once I jumped into the world of Magnum.

Ha.

The boxes of ammo came factory with horse power stamped on them,,, no math required. LOL

[Stinky Coyote]

Lol, no flip flopping, trying to acknowledge that long ago I looked at all the energy momentum and other theories. Bullets are needles. The higher sd given same impact velocity goes deeper. Doesn’t matter the difference in energy.