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  #271  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:08 PM
abbgdr abbgdr is offline
 
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Having had a 6.5x55 in a light rifle I understand it's appeal. It remains a popular choice in the Nordic countries but the harvest reports I've seen from those countries show the 30-06 as being more often used when moose hunting. And the 30 calibers are far more prevalent when wild boar are being hunted. A couple years ago I saw a Norwegian report of the gun sales by caliber and the 30-06 and 308 were the two most popular calibers chosen. So, highly unlikely that the 30's are going to be overtaken by the smaller calibers even in the countries most often associated with them. To each their own. I no longer own anything smaller than the 06 as I often hunt alone in bear country. I don't think that discussions of BC, SD, etc are going to change what guides choose to carry for back up when dangerous game is an issue. I also know of several brown bear guides who have a caliber minimum and it's not 6.5. Could it kill a 1000+ lb coastal brownie? Of course with a perfect shot, but your not going to convince them to give up their 375's and 458's for back up work. That of course is the extreme end of the scale but also applies to any big game pursued. The question remains, what is the 'best' caliber for the game, type of hunting, and terrain that will be encountered. There are states that allow .22 caliber centerfire rifles for big game hunting. I have a brother who kills a mule deer every year with his .223. To me thats taking the SD,BC argument to the extreme and from my perspective borders on unethical. There are far too many types of hunting and terrains in North America to narrow the field to eliminate 30 caliber and above. If recoil is the determining factor in choice of caliber then you'll have to limit your hunts accordingly. If a .22 rimfire causes you to flinch I suppose you could always take up knitting.
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  #272  
Old 08-22-2017, 12:58 AM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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But i think what Kurt is trying to say is that if someone wanted to spend extra money on special bullets and have a longer barrel, and spend more time looking for special ammo, he could probably get his little gun to shoot like a big gun.
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  #273  
Old 08-22-2017, 01:24 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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But i think what Kurt is trying to say is that if someone wanted to spend extra money on special bullets and have a longer barrel, and spend more time looking for special ammo, he could probably get his little gun to shoot like a big gun.
Lol, thanks Nyksta, but again you don't have a clue. I've been hunting for a few decades and I've yet to come across a bear wearing a Kevlar vest or a moose with bullet proof armor. I've watched guys make a not perfect shot on a deer with a 338 and guess what? It never died ever with a magic animal killing caliber.

Next time you make it to town, go to a sports shop and compare the price of special 6.5 bullets with 30cal bullets, then report back here with your findings.

A little bit of advice for you here.... your big gun won't make up for your short comings

abbgdr, how about you post some links to those harvest reports, I'd be interested in seeing them.
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  #274  
Old 08-22-2017, 07:34 AM
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Harvest stats concerning small caliber hunting rifles such as the .22 calibers etc would surprise a lot of people .

As far as killing goes , the cartridge used ( in my mind anyway) is not nearly as important as how it is used and the expertise of the person using it .

If I hunter can't hit a kill area of a quarry at a certain distance on a regular basis they have no business shooting at an animal at that distance .

If a hunter wants to huntvwith a particular rifle type or cartridge as long as it is legal and they are competent with it that is their business .

This thread has turned into something akin to someone stating that the .303 British and 30:40 Krag are no longer sufficient to kill a moose!

There, I feel much better now.........
Cat
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  #275  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:14 AM
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Exactly. In a blind shoot out I would say 100% of hunters couldn't tell you what they just shot an animal with if they didn't already know.
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  #276  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:23 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Exactly. In a blind shoot out I would say 100% of hunters couldn't tell you what they just shot an animal with if they didn't already know.
I bet the animal couldn't either.
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  #277  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:25 AM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Exactly. In a blind shoot out I would say 100% of hunters couldn't tell you what they just shot an animal with if they didn't already know.
i'd bet i could tell you the powder every time 60% of the time. especially if it was varget, superformance, or retumbo.
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  #278  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:33 AM
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i'd bet i could tell you the powder every time 60% of the time. especially if it was varget, superformance, or retumbo.
H414 smells like a tiny brake stand every time you pull the trigger. I think its the burn retardant on the pellets.
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  #279  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:33 AM
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I bet the animal couldn't either.
I'm certain of it.
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  #280  
Old 08-22-2017, 09:14 AM
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I spent from the age 15 logging doing peace work,almost all the guys had 303 or 308 in there shacks,and I can't remember one guy who didn't kill his moose or deer with these guns,in the wrong hands and shot placement is poor A 375 hh at 75 yrds won't help.
In my guiding years I seen guys practice when they arrived at camp to see if there rifle was zeroed in and seen some beauties ,nicest rifles that could be purchased in mag cartridges ,but when in came to the final seen they screwed up, some shot 2 feet to high,some wounded and I had to help out.So I do have a few I like to hunt with and do take out my 303 the odd time and there is nothing I am worried about,not even the slightest thought ,make the first one count is the biggest factor in any hunt or you may have problems.
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  #281  
Old 08-22-2017, 11:42 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Here are a couple links for you to read Nyksta

http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-cre...08-winchester/

https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...or-for-hunting

They kind of blow both your theory on ammo cost and barrel length out of the range.


I'll help you out here because it seems to be going past you without sinking in. What my point is, is that smaller calibers like the 6.5 and 7mm are getting the job done more efficiently than the 30cal's. It's not magic bullets in longer barrels, its science and technology.
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  #282  
Old 08-22-2017, 03:05 PM
Husty Husty is offline
 
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My farthest moose kill was with a 140gr bullet launched out of my 280rem at 509yds, and I imagine the 6.5 Creedmoor will be packing close to the same punch at that distance.
I am all for using better bullets and I have always considered myself a decent enough shot. But how many of you guys are actually consistently shooting game out at 500-700 yards every year where the energy trade off actually becomes substantial between a 6.5s/280s/whatever and 30cal?

I know that personally I try to limit shots within 300 yards for ethical reasons because I KNOW ill hit where I am aiming. For longer shots I just think there is too much to go wrong, especially when in the field not shooting off a bench. This is where I think trade off with BC and SD become null between 30cal and whatever caliber you guys are arguing about now(I think its 6.5cm?).
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  #283  
Old 08-22-2017, 03:14 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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308 178gr at 2550 velocities is 312" drop at 900m sighted in at 100 meter 0.

77" drift at 900M.

Not 400" drop nor 100" drift with 10 mpr cross winds.
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  #284  
Old 08-22-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
i'd bet i could tell you the powder every time 60% of the time. especially if it was varget, superformance, or retumbo.
Those powders are very pungent...
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  #285  
Old 08-22-2017, 04:08 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Here are a couple links for you to read Nyksta

http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-cre...08-winchester/

https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...or-for-hunting

They kind of blow both your theory on ammo cost and barrel length out of the range.


I'll help you out here because it seems to be going past you without sinking in. What my point is, is that smaller calibers like the 6.5 and 7mm are getting the job done more efficiently than the 30cal's. It's not magic bullets in longer barrels, its science and technology.
Kurt it appears that what you lack in manners you make up for in book knowledge. I appreciate the articles. I be sure to hold into the wind a bit extra knowing that 30 cal is what it is.
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  #286  
Old 08-22-2017, 04:16 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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http://www.jbmballistics.com/about/about.shtml

Good source at finding real time ballistic calculations of all bullets in todays shooting world.

Don
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  #287  
Old 08-22-2017, 04:55 PM
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The great 300 blk will take up the slack for the flagging great 30 06. I have shot lots of paper and metal things with my 300 blk and if the less is more people who gave up thier 30 06 for the 308 are to be believed why not go all the way down to the 300 blk.plus americans are killing stuff like crazy with itt even if im not
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  #288  
Old 08-22-2017, 05:44 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Kurt it appears that what you lack in manners you make up for in book knowledge. I appreciate the articles. I be sure to hold into the wind a bit extra knowing that 30 cal is what it is.
What I lack in manners? I'll refer you to post 272. I treat everyone how they ask to be treated.

As for where you hold your sights, that's entirely up to you.
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  #289  
Old 08-22-2017, 07:50 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I see a 6.5 Creedmoor in a 4.5lb rifle with a 1:9 twist as being my new favorite hunting rifle/cartridge combo.
That's alot of recoil Kurt. If your choosing a 4.5 lb rifle.

6.5 Creedmoor with 140gr bullets at max velocities of 2736.

Recoil Impulse (2.61) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (18.65) fps
Recoil Energy (24.30) ft-lbs

My heavy barrel 12 lb 308 with 178gr bullets at max velocity of 2650

Recoil Impulse (3.09) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (8.29) fps
Recoil Energy (12.83) ft-lbs.

A 4.5 lb Creedmoor 24.30
My 12 lb 308 win 12.83

That's alot of recoil my friend.

This is a handy tool for those that choose too be in the know.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

Don
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  #290  
Old 08-22-2017, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Kurt it appears that what you lack in manners you make up for in book knowledge. I appreciate the articles. I be sure to hold into the wind a bit extra knowing that 30 cal is what it is.
What he lacks in manners???? You obviously have misunderstood Kurt by a long shot. I personally know his knowledge comes more from real life than "book knowledge". Not many people hone their shooting skills out to the distances with the regularity that he does.
Nyksta you are likely way over your head on this one.
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  #291  
Old 08-22-2017, 09:20 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
That's alot of recoil Kurt. If your choosing a 4.5 lb rifle.

6.5 Creedmoor with 140gr bullets at max velocities of 2736.

Recoil Impulse (2.61) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (18.65) fps
Recoil Energy (24.30) ft-lbs

My heavy barrel 12 lb 308 with 178gr bullets at max velocity of 2650

Recoil Impulse (3.09) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (8.29) fps
Recoil Energy (12.83) ft-lbs.

A 4.5 lb Creedmoor 24.30
My 12 lb 308 win 12.83

That's alot of recoil my friend.

This is a handy tool for those that choose too be in the know.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

Don
It's nothing for recoil, like seriously it's so little recoil that my 13yr old can shoot my 5lb 280ai in the same platform. Some rifle stocks are designed wallop you, some are designed to absorb recoil. I don't think your calculator can incorporate that into its equation.

That's a heavy rifle! 12lbs!!! I'd hate to have to hunt with one of those. I had a couple Weatherby Accumarks, great shooters but they sucked to pack around all day.
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  #292  
Old 08-22-2017, 11:00 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
That's alot of recoil Kurt. If your choosing a 4.5 lb rifle.

6.5 Creedmoor with 140gr bullets at max velocities of 2736.

Recoil Impulse (2.61) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (18.65) fps
Recoil Energy (24.30) ft-lbs

My heavy barrel 12 lb 308 with 178gr bullets at max velocity of 2650

Recoil Impulse (3.09) lbs. Sec
Recoil Velocity (8.29) fps
Recoil Energy (12.83) ft-lbs.

A 4.5 lb Creedmoor 24.30
My 12 lb 308 win 12.83

That's alot of recoil my friend.

This is a handy tool for those that choose too be in the know.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

Don
I think he is well aware of this Don.
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  #293  
Old 08-23-2017, 05:23 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
It's nothing for recoil, like seriously it's so little recoil that my 13yr old can shoot my 5lb 280ai in the same platform. Some rifle stocks are designed wallop you, some are designed to absorb recoil. I don't think your calculator can incorporate that into its equation.

That's a heavy rifle! 12lbs!!! I'd hate to have to hunt with one of those. I had a couple Weatherby Accumarks, great shooters but they sucked to pack around all day.
Sorry Kurt, its not my calculateor, its not my take on the recoil thing since you brought it up in the above posts

No one on the forum is forcing you too believe anything, but the 2 links above are ways too access info that folks can use in finding what at least comes close too what they are searching for.

Funny how your talking about a 5 pound rifle even though you posted the rifle your picking up "will" be 4 1/2 lbs, then when you have the link it seems that a spin in direction pops up.

Yes, a 12 lb rifle is heavy for people who are not strong enough to pack something like that, no big deal since its not my old sheep rifle.

Each person picks what works since you prefer 4 and 1/2 lb rifles that support over 24 lbs recoil.

You'd mentioned on earlier posts above that recoil is a cause of Hunters missing game and vital shots, now your suggesting that this recoil is nothing.

I'm guessing it is everyone reading this thread that are confused my friend.

None of us are blind since the links are closer too reality than just words,,, purhaps it's your turn too bring links an proof that a 4 1/2 lb rifle does not have as much recoil as some Magnums then.

My 308 shooting 178gr bullets is very comparable to a 243 win yet it is a small fraction greater than that.

Show all of us what a 4 1/2 lb 6.5 Creedmoor is now that you have access to the links, that way we can see how your coming up with the recoil ideas that you brought up.

Don
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  #294  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:17 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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It's nothing for recoil, like seriously it's so little recoil that my 13yr old can shoot my 5lb 280ai in the same platform
Let's see the proof of this then.

In the same platform is not likely since the 140gr bullet at AI specifications at 3000 ft-per seconds shows recoil results of 30.01 ft-lbs.

That's even higher then the 5 lb Creedmoor results Kurt.

I guess the calculator is broken, doo-noo bro.

Don
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  #295  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:23 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Sorry Kurt, its not my calculateor, its not my take on the recoil thing since you brought it up in the above posts

No one on the forum is forcing you too believe anything, but the 2 links above are ways too access info that folks can use in finding what at least comes close too what they are searching for.

Funny how your talking about a 5 pound rifle even though you posted the rifle your picking up "will" be 4 1/2 lbs, then when you have the link it seems that a spin in direction pops up.

Yes, a 12 lb rifle is heavy for people who are not strong enough to pack something like that, no big deal since its not my old sheep rifle.

Each person picks what works since you prefer 4 and 1/2 lb rifles that support over 24 lbs recoil.

You'd mentioned on earlier posts above that recoil is a cause of Hunters missing game and vital shots, now your suggesting that this recoil is nothing.

I'm guessing it is everyone reading this thread that are confused my friend.

None of us are blind since the links are closer too reality than just words,,, purhaps it's your turn too bring links an proof that a 4 1/2 lb rifle does not have as much recoil as some Magnums then.

My 308 shooting 178gr bullets is very comparable to a 243 win yet it is a small fraction greater than that.

Show all of us what a 4 1/2 lb 6.5 Creedmoor is now that you have access to the links, that way we can see how your coming up with the recoil ideas that you brought up.

Don
Now I understand where you're coming from...... you make up scenarios to try and fit them into your argument so it helps your position. That's most likely why most of your posts seem to come from way out in left field.

If you go back and re-read what you're quoting me on you'll find I used a 5lb 280ai in my example because I have a model 24 Nula 280ai in my gun locker and I have a model 20 Nula 6.5 Creedmoor on order that, again if you got back and read all of what I wrote, I am hoping to have here before November.

Some people think packing around a 5lb rifle all hunting season is for weaklings, other people think packing around a 12lb rifle all hunting season is for morons. I guess it all in how you see things.

My view is, if I can shoulder my rifle on the 8th hour of packing it to put my sights on an animal just as easily as I can on the 1st hour of the hunt with a smaller caliber, my odds of holding steady on target are way better than packing around a 12lb rifle so as not to get hurt by the recoil of a big bore caliber would be on the 8th hour.

Maybe it's just me? Or maybe it's just experience combined with common sense? If you ever get the chance you should read up on Melvin Forbes, see what his take is on it and see what the gun writers think about Melvin, his rifles, and his theories on the subject. Although he doesn't speak much about caliber (because he's in the business of building hunting rifles not making life decisions for people), he will give you insight into recoil vs rifle design and rifle weight. I'm sure it will be to your benefit to have a peek at what he has to say about things.
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  #296  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:24 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Let's see the proof of this then.

In the same platform is not likely since the 140gr bullet at AI specifications at 3000 ft-per seconds shows recoil results of 30.01 ft-lbs.

That's even higher then the 5 lb Creedmoor results Kurt.

I guess the calculator is broken, doo-noo bro.

Don
Your digging a hole here Don, trust me.
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  #297  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:45 AM
JD848 JD848 is offline
 
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Kurt you know yourself better than anyone,you have your new gun on the way and I am very sure you will do well with it and it's in very capable hands and more than capable cartridge,just cause I like my bigger cals doesn't mean I don't like what you just bought,that's a very good rifle any hunter would love,you know shot placement as good as any veteran hunter .I wish you the best of luck with it .
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  #298  
Old 08-23-2017, 09:07 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Kurt you know yourself better than anyone,you have your new gun and I am very sure you will do well with it and it's in very capable hands and more than capable cartridge,just cause I like my bigger cals doesn't mean I don't like what you just bought,that's a very good rifle any hunter would love,you know shot placement as good as any veteran hunter .I wish you the best of luck with it .
Thanks Ron, I can't wait to put some miles on packing that little rifle.

After packing around the model 24 all last season I realized the benefits of having such a nimble rifle. It reminded me of when I was a kid, packing around my German made crack barrel pellet gun. I could take the eye out of a rough grouse at 30yds with that thing. I was a sniper with that little gun, chickens and rabbits were no longer safe once I locked on.

When the opportunity came up to order another Nula I wanted a model 20 this time, the "Original light weight Rifle". So when it came time for cartridge selection I was restricted to a short action. First choice would have been a 284 norma, but since I already had a 280ai it seemed too much of the same thing, that's when my caliber study started.

Ballistic charts, bullet design, and real life testimonies, I read until my eyes hurt. After all things were considered I settled on a 6.5 Creedmoor. The 7-08, 260rem, 264 Norma, and 260ai were all considerations, but in the end the Creedmoor made the cut. The final deciding factor was, since I plan on shooting this rifle a lot, like having it feel like a natural appendage a lot, barrel life also played a factor. I plan on using the superior ballistic characteristics of the 6.5 caliber with the lightweight handiness of the Nula to become the ultimate ungulate slayer.
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  #299  
Old 08-23-2017, 09:20 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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No spin my friend, just following what the stats say.

Don
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:48 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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No spin my friend, just following what the stats say.

Don
You might be following your charts, but you're not following the thread or you would have known my 13yr old son can easily handle recoil of the 280ai in the same platform I ordered the 6.5 Creedmoor in. Also, your calculator does not use stock design as part of its felt recoil.

Part of the magic in felt recoil, or the lack there of, is effected by the weight of the stock. It's a hard concept for some to understand, but would you rather get hit with a solid core hickory baseball bat or a hollow plastic baseball bat at twice the speed? Once you understand this concept you can begin to understand the science behind the recoil manageability of Melvins stock design.

Recoil aside, the 6.5 caliber bullets are a way better bang for your buck compared to the 30cal, hands down. Every hunter would benefit from less recoil, whether they would like to admit it or not. Every reloader would benefit from spending less $$ on lead and powder. Every hunter would benefit by being less fatigued from packing around a heavy rifle.

If you use the hood of the truck as a gun rest I can see none of this mattering, and can see the value of a 12lb hunting rifle in a 300 ultra mag to reach out and get those critters 800yds off the road.

Last edited by Kurt505; 08-23-2017 at 10:00 AM.
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