Annealing in the Oven?

[qmurphy]

Ok , don’t crucify me too much for this post. I’m sure most of you who clicked into it already have me written off as an idiot.

And yes, I’ve heard the urban legend about the guy who put his casings in the oven...

Do you think it would work to submerge the bottom half of the casing in water (by setting the casings in a shell holder and dropping them in a pan of water), preheating the oven to 700F (mine doesn’t go that hot anyhow, doubt that there are many that actually do), and setting the pan of casings in for 10 min or so.

I figure as long as the bottom half of the casings are submerged in water, they are protected from being annealed. I would probably mark the casing necks with a tempil stick to make sure that they actually reached a temperature high enough for annealing.

Go ahead, call me an idiot. I’m a runner, and dreamed this up on a long run today...so I probably wasn’t thinking straight.

[Lefty-Canuck]

When you anneal you want to only anneal the neck and barely the shoulder area....to anneal you need to hit around 700deg f...quickly and then cool so in short you cannot effectively anneal in the oven...as far as I know.

You can actually see a colour change in the metal when the right temp point occurs, or you can use an indicator..if you anneal the whole case you will have a host of issues that could include case head separation or complete case rupture....DO NOT anneal the WHOLE case...

I use a propane torch a drill and an appropriate sized socket to spin the case...then drop it into a pan of water.

(Posted the above so if other try to anneal they know not to do the whole case)

LC

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

When you anneal you want to only anneal the neck and barely the shoulder area....to anneal you need to hit around 700deg f....so in short you cannot effectively anneal in the oven.

LC

x2

[catnthehat]

Take a look at what Lefty says and think about it for a bit.
For your brass to reach a high enough temp on the neck, the water will be boiling over!!
Roll you cases over a butane torch until you cannot comfortably hold them then place them on a towel.
Done- doesn't have to be any more complicated than that, I've been doing it that way since I was a kid and will be doing some Snider brass tonight in fact.
Cat

[qmurphy]

I'm not talking about reaching annealing temp on the whole casing, so I understand you cautions, but I would only be heating the top half to 1/3 of the casing to the 700F, the water would provide sufficient cooling on the lower portion of the casing.

The water won't boil over, it will slowly steam off as it heats up, although I'm a little worried about the steam cooling the case necks as it rises. Go ahead, put a pan of water in your oven....it won't boil in 10min....not a chance.

Like I said, my oven won't actually hit 700F anyhow, so it wouldn't work anyway. Speaking in general terms, if my oven could get to that temperature any reason why this wouldn't be an option?

If the water was still in the pan, I'd be assured that the lower section of the case wasn't annealed. And if the temp stick mark had melted on the neck, I'd know the neck reached the 700F.

[Salavee]

Back off a bit on the running and read up or Google cartridge brass annealing. There is a correct procedure for annealing cartridge brass and it doesn't involve an oven. It's actually simpler than your (real bad) oven idea. Now, .. back to the track .

[Lefty-Canuck]

You want sudden focused heating and sudden cooling....so an oven does not fit the bill....focused heat with a torch is a good thing.

LC

[marxman]

Originally Posted by qmurphy

I'm not talking about reaching annealing temp on the whole casing, so I understand you cautions, but I would only be heating the top half to 1/3 of the casing to the 700F, the water would provide sufficient cooling on the lower portion of the casing.

The water won't boil over, it will slowly steam off as it heats up, although I'm a little worried about the steam cooling the case necks as it rises. Go ahead, put a pan of water in your oven....it won't boil in 10min....not a chance.

Like I said, my oven won't actually hit 700F anyhow, so it wouldn't work anyway. Speaking in general terms, if my oven could get to that temperature any reason why this wouldn't be an option?

If the water was still in the pan, I'd be assured that the lower section of the case wasn't annealed. And if the temp stick mark had melted on the neck, I'd know the neck reached the 700F.

Copper conducts heat too fast you would never get it to 700 degrees with the water there you would need a torch. Cat never tires of repeating himself on this subject but nobody wants it to be that simple i have done it myself that way

[qmurphy]

I've done my share of googling, and my understanding is that heating and cooling rate does not matter, only that it actually reaches the temp required for annealing? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think it might be a common myth that the heating and cooling needs to happen rapidly.

As far as simplicity, I can't see it getting any simpler than setting 200 casings in the oven for 10 min and then taking them out. Unless a guy had some fancy annealing set up, I can't imagine it being any simpler than that?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by marxman

Copper conducts heat too fast you would never get it to 700 degrees with the water there you would need a torch. Cat never tires of repeating himself on this subject but nobody wants it to be that simple i have done it myself that way

Quite often the stuff that is easy to do gets over complicated by those that do not believe it I guess .
It does get a bit tiring at times but of the question is asked I will answer it
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by qmurphy

I've done my share of googling, and my understanding is that heating and cooling rate does not matter, only that it actually reaches the temp required for annealing? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think it might be a common myth that the heating and cooling needs to happen rapidly.

As far as simplicity, I can't see it getting any simpler than setting 200 casings in the oven for 10 min and then taking them out. Unless a guy had some fancy annealing set up, I can't imagine it being any simpler than that?

It is...and I described it, use a drill...socket and propane torch...drop into towel or pan.

I guess google trumps real people sharing real experiences...the major manufacturers who anneal prior to boxing match brass do not and would not do it the way you describe

They use an assembly line that runs the brass through a focused heat source

The idea with fast focused heat is you do not give the heat from the source a chance to heat the entire case through conduction.

LC

[qmurphy]

Yeah Cat, that was my biggest fear, was brass pull too much of the heat from the water and would never actually reach the 700F. I'll let it die here.

Thanks for humoring me guys. My assumption was that if it worked, people would already be doing it.

[elkhunter11]

I use the tool pictured. Because it puts the flame all around the case at once, I don't need to turn the case. I just turn the torch slightly from side to side..

[qmurphy]

nice, thanks for sharing the picture. I'll be building one of those.

[Rdamours]

That's a slick tool. Store bought or did you roll your own.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Now that is what the Doctor ordered!

LC

[260 Rem]

I've been thinking about trying annealing...so with Elk's tool, would the procedure be to:
* stand the case in water to the neck/shoulder junction.
* apply heat until neck glows red
* tip case into water for fast cool
What about using templaq or whatever it is called?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I guess google trumps real people sharing real experiences...the major manufacturers who anneal prior to boxing match brass do not and would not do it the way you describe


LC

Actually all bras is annealed, it's just polished in an additional step by many companies, for no other reason that to look good.
These days however, it is very cool to have brass that was not polished after annealing!
I used to think the same and asked once , that was when I was told about the polishing step!
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Roll you cases over a butane torch until you cannot comfortably hold them then place them on a towel.
Done- doesn't have to be any more complicated than that, I've been doing it that way since I was a kid and will be doing some Snider brass tonight in fact.
Cat

I do the same yet toss mine into a bucket of water. I may move to the towel method now.

[elkhunter11]

The tool was purchased from The Woodchuck Den. I used it to anneal my 221 Fireball cases, after necking them down to form 20Vartarg brass. I stand the cases in about 1/2" of water, in a cookie tray, apply the heat for about 15 seconds, and then tip them over with the tool. The cases sizzle pretty good when I knock them over, but they never get hot enough to glow red. The fellow that owns The Woodchuck Den is the developer of the 20 Vartarg, and several other wildcat cartridges, so he anneals a great deal of brass. I just followed his instructions.

[huntin]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Take a look at what Lefty says and think about it for a bit.
For your brass to reach a high enough temp on the neck, the water will be boiling over!!
Roll you cases over a butane torch until you cannot comfortably hold them then place them on a towel.
Done- doesn't have to be any more complicated than that, I've been doing it that way since I was a kid and will be doing some Snider brass tonight in fact.
Cat

With neck sizing and annealing how much more life would one get out of the brass. also Cat is that a damp towel your putting the brass on after its been heated?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by huntin

With neck sizing and annealing how much more life would one get out of the brass. also Cat is that a damp towel your putting the brass on after its been heated?

Nope, just a shop towel so they don't get bumped when i set them down.
With some of my cases it increases case life enormously, others, not so much.
With my BP cases that I bell and then crimp like my .577 Snider or hunting rounds in the 45/70's , I do it EVERY time, or the cases will only be good for a few firings before they crack, and at those prices one cannot afford it!
Cat

[huntin]

ok so is there an advantage to the rapid cooling by putting them in water or is that a myth? I've never played with annealing but I'm going to start.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by huntin

ok so is there an advantage to the rapid cooling by putting them in water or is that a myth? I've never played with annealing but I'm going to start.

Some people are adamant about dropping them in water or putting them in a pan of water, some aren't.
Both ways work.....
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by huntin

ok so is there an advantage to the rapid cooling by putting them in water or is that a myth? I've never played with annealing but I'm going to start.

I think the idea with rapid cooling is you limit the chance for the heat to conduct further down the case than intended.

LC

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I've been thinking about trying annealing...so with Elk's tool, would the procedure be to:
* stand the case in water to the neck/shoulder junction.
* apply heat until neck glows red
* tip case into water for fast cool
What about using templaq or whatever it is called?

Red is way too hot. If they glow red they are garbage. It's best to use some sort of temp stick so you don't overheat your brass.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think the idea with rapid cooling is you limit the chance for the heat to conduct further down the case than intended.

LC

And this is where the division starts on Annealing!
Once the heat is taken away, the brass on a case is so thin that it does not hold it or transfer it to the surrounding metal faster than it is dissipated into the air.
There really is no argument as far as I am concenred, because both ways are tried and true.
it's something that people like engineers like to debate!!
Cat

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think the idea with rapid cooling is you limit the chance for the heat to conduct further down the case than intended.

LC

Even after annealing and dropped on a towel I can still grab the cases at the base. This is useing two torches so they are heated quick before the heat has time to transfer. It's a great system.

[marxman]

?You can watch the colour change when it starts down the shoulder take the heat off and it will stop. This temper colour i am guessing signifies a change in the metal it seems to work for me to go from 30 06 to 338 06 and the brass stays good. I have seen this temper colour on new necks so im pretty sure its right

[260 Rem]

Anybody buy temiplaq in Edm.....source. Which works best- liquid or stick paste. What temp --- ?