JR's on a line

nube · #1 03-21-2015, 09:26 PM

It seems the more I talk to people the more I find there are a lot of JR's out there. I was thinking of getting a JR on mine the other night for a small portion of my line and make a trade of some sort to be worth while doing it. It would be nice in that part of my line so I can get someone to do the main homework and scout it and maybe get something in return like a box of wolf traps or some sort of trade. It would be doing someone a favor for living the dream of trying it out on a registered line and would benefit me as well.
I was tossing this around in my mind and wondered what sort of deals most guys make with JR partners? Does the guy that owns the line usually get anything in return like that or does he let someone trap it out of the goodness of his heart for some reason? What is the usual protocol?

Tfng · #2 03-21-2015, 10:21 PM

I was also curious on how this normally worked.

Bushmonkey · #3 03-21-2015, 10:54 PM

I thought the JR just gave a % of fur sales to the owner.

jawa · #4 03-21-2015, 11:01 PM

it depends on your circumstances some people want some fur, some want up keep on trails and cabins ,some want company plus need help because of age or health issues, some just want the line too be used. In the end you paid for the line what you want is up to you plus a percentage of your quota furs will be taken by someone else. My personal opinion unless you no the person very very well go cash deal up front

Toe823 · #5 03-21-2015, 11:34 PM

My idea of having a jr on my line was to teach a young fella the ways of trapping, let him understand what it takes to trap, give him traps and any equipment he needs to get started, and let him catch, process and sell some fur for a few dollars in his pocket. I was fortunate enough to have this opportunity a few times in my life, i would never expect anything more or less....

joeti7 · #6 03-22-2015, 02:19 AM

Not sure I would think it is doing someone a favor, we definitely are a hard breed to come by though. I would think that it would be more about having a proper fur management on the line and teaching others about trapping. You would think that it goes without saying to keep up on the upkeep on trails if someone was a jr on the line. I know if I was doing all the leg work to develop a part of a trapline that hadn't been trapped in a long time, so that in a year or 2 someone else could breeze in and easily set traps not having to fight with the initial struggles of making a loop on a trapline without any benefit to me afterwards(let alone having to pay to trap it while I was there), I would be beyond mad. It would have to be a long term deal. If we were to put a jr on the line, they would get whatever fur they trapped. The only limit that I would think is on animals that are on quotas. That would only be because our trapline is fairly small and we are limited to that fur. With that being said, maybe it is a bigger deal to someone who lives in town(or the city) to be able to have a certain place to go and not worry about anyone else.

Brian Bildson · #7 03-22-2015, 07:04 AM

Everyone has a different system. If it's a strictly commercial deal 1/3 to the Senior for "expenses" and 50/50 split on fur sale. I believe that Juniors now have to report their harvest separate from the senior to ESRD

martinnordegg · #8 03-22-2015, 07:26 AM

You are correct Brian Jr's have to fill out a separate fur declaration. One thing about taking on Jr's is if things don't work out the partnership agreement control is in the hands of the Senior. That meaning the Senior controls the partnership year to year and by not signing to renew it is null and void. Something for each party to think about before putting in a bunch of cash or time.

nube · #9 03-22-2015, 07:52 AM

I also guess that it depends on how serious the JR is. I think there are a lot of guys that dream of running on a trapline but don't want to put in a whole lot of time doing it. It would be their recreation type of thing and if they caught some fur they would be beyond excited. Then I think there would be the hardcore guys that would want to make a buck and catch huge numbers of critters. I know if someone would have offered this to me years ago I would have seriously thought about it.
I was curious to what the thoughts were from you guys.

bill9044 · #10 03-22-2015, 10:26 AM

Hey nube I believe that there is a market for trapline tourism. A fellow coming out and being a junior for a couple weeks and going home. However the logistics are difficult. No one is gonna sign up a junior just for a 2 week period. I am not sure if there is a limit to the amount of juniors a line can have. I have heard of juniors having to hand over lynx or fisher to the senior as payment but as you know the quota is max for line. If there was a way to do the trapline tourism I think you could make some good cash. But babysitting a client on a line wouldn't be my idea of fun.

Big Grey Wolf · #11 03-22-2015, 10:45 AM

Nube, you might consider a full "senior partner" arrangement. You both put up 50% of cash for line cabin building traps etc. Then both trappers have a undivided half share of the line, you split fur down the middle, trucks, skidoo, quad owned separately. No one has power over other. I would apprentice the junior for a couple years before offering full partnership to be sure you are compatible. Then with your large line could actually split into two RFMA's in future if you wanted to break partnership.

Keeleclimber · #12 03-22-2015, 10:59 AM

I'm seeking a trapping apprenticeship on a trapline in the mountains anywhere between Sundre and Rocky Mtn House.
My objectives are:
1) Learn the trade.
2) Spend more time in the back country.
3) Thin out the wolves and coyotes.
4) Long term- Ultimately become licensed senior holder of RFMA in this specific area.

I live in Caroline and I'm familiar with this section of back country.
My background is sheep hunting. Experienced in trail maintenance, cabin construction and caping. Zero trapping experience.
I've always had a huge respect and interest in trapping.
Please PM me with leads.
Thanks

mark-edmonton · #13 03-22-2015, 11:00 AM

I am a jr on a northern line! But think I have it pretty good! I have free reign to trap what I want, where I want! My sr line holder comes out with me when he can, but I do all the cleaning and put up! What I catch is mine as the sr appreciates all my work in the line!

alder · #14 03-22-2015, 12:07 PM

As an individual looking to buy my own trapline or become a jr on someone else's, I'll offer my perspective as a buyer. I see trapping in two ways.

One is the cultural/recreational aspect that we all love and think about in terms of a generational thing. None of us ever want to see trapping become extinct, and for that purpose there is a joy in teaching others and passing the hobby down to future generations. I hope to be that guy someday. To this end, allowing a jr. on your line fulfills this goal and money is not involved in this element.

The second, is the business and economic segment and for this, the structure can have all or some form of upfront payments, milestones, royalties (fur payments), earn-outs, whatever on a percentage of that which is being licensed. This is a typical license agreement. You're the owner and I know you paid a lot, so how much are you giving up economically depends on what the jr gets to keep or not, and you should want to structure a deal that makes sense for both parties, not only in terms of the absolute $$s, but the timing thereof.

Given what traplines go for, I don't see how it works without this second piece unless you're talking family, or unless the jr. comes on for a very short period of time to "learn the way". Even then, you might consider they pay you a flat fee, just like a trapping course.

BTW, the economics of trapping do not justify the current market price of any trapline to make it a worthwhile pure business case for a new buyer. It's a hobby, unless you enjoy losing money on an investment or have an unlimited timespan to pay off the principal on a line, not to mention a $20K snowmachine, truck, etc. But, it's still a hobby that I personally spend my hard earned money on, and where I plan to sink money on in the short term.

nube · #15 03-22-2015, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill9044

Hey nube I believe that there is a market for trapline tourism. A fellow coming out and being a junior for a couple weeks and going home. However the logistics are difficult. No one is gonna sign up a junior just for a 2 week period. I am not sure if there is a limit to the amount of juniors a line can have. I have heard of juniors having to hand over lynx or fisher to the senior as payment but as you know the quota is max for line. If there was a way to do the trapline tourism I think you could make some good cash. But babysitting a client on a line wouldn't be my idea of fun.

Ya I am not into babysitting but I do believe that there are a lot of guys that would love to go out to a line over the winter and do some exploration, put up some traps and catch some critters. Lots of guys not looking long term but would like to have some fun.
At the same time I can get info from them from going into a part of my line that I do not see myself trapping for a couple years possibly and also maybe a set flat fee at the start to cover the cost of buying some new gear for myself. I for sure would not be benefitting much financially from the deal that is for sure.

I do not ever plan on having a partner on my line or even a JR that would be trapping the main part of my line where I would be doing my own trapping. It does not make sense to me to do that at this time of my life.

I mostly was curious as to what some guys are doing. There seems to be a lot of SR guys that don't trap much and have JR partners doing the trapping.

Daslogster · #16 03-22-2015, 02:18 PM

I would certainly welcome the opportunity to be a jr on a line, if only for the learning experience. I have been fortunate that I have had a couple registered trappers over the years mentor me on the side and what I have done, as I will do this year, is turn over all of the marten that I will catch over to the one registered trapper I have worked with in exchange for the experience. I am also only really interested in coyotes and foxes primarily, wolves if time permits so any other catches are of no real interest so I can work with most registered trappers just fine.

6tmile · #17 03-22-2015, 02:44 PM

In the last 2 years i have had 2 oppertunities to become a junior on a RFMA. The first time I dumped $ 1200 in lumber to build a decent skinning shed and fixed up trails and the cabin on a line that hasn't been trapped in 15 years, I built the shed then the line was sold shortly after that. No reimbursment to me. The second time I was offered a jr on a line with a 50/50 cut on just furs. Any expenses would come out of my 50%. This is a current fur producing line that was being trapped with equipment that was, and I quote " a little out dated but good enough for trapping martin". After that, I thanked the owner and wished him good luck. I now trap a lot of private land, and turn in any incidental catches to fish and wildlife.

dugh · #18 03-22-2015, 02:52 PM

After our first season as juniors we told the sr. our harvest numbers and asked if we owed him anything, he said we didn't. We were signed on the line as juniors with a gentleman's agreement that we trap the portion north of the river, this worked very well because we would never trap more than we had agreed on. Unfortunately this is a 2 to 3 year agreement, we have finished 2 years and the line will soon be transferred to a son, fingers crossed the son may want to continue like this. Either way, we are grateful for the opportunity and continue to look for opportunities (purchasing or partnering) in that area.
Doug

braggadoe · #19 03-22-2015, 05:39 PM

while searching for a line. i assistant trapped on two different lines. its the best way to see for yourself, if the line is worth trapping/buying. alot of lines forsale, arn't worth trapping/the investment.IMO.

one of the lines, i eventually bought. the senior trapper really didn't want to sell, but had it on the market to see if there was any interest.

as like everyone else. he was asking an unrealistic amount of money. at the end of the two year agreement. i offered him a VERY low amount. because i knew the real potential. having just trapped it for 2 seasons.

along with a low amount of cash. i agreed to keep him on as my JR. i became the line holder.

works very well. i have a line, he still gets to trap. we both get to trap a stellar line. we don't share fur, costs, or anything. we trap separate areas. talk once/twice a year. i choose not to trap it this year, because of sketchy marten clearances last season. he did trap it.

i only mention this because i know of several other guys who have acquired great lines, from great trappers. for not an out of this world cost. both trappers end up winning. it's something to think about, for guys searching for a line.

braggadoe · #20 03-22-2015, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alder

As an individual looking to buy my own trapline or become a jr on someone else's, I'll offer my perspective as a buyer. I see trapping in two ways.

One is the cultural/recreational aspect that we all love and think about in terms of a generational thing. None of us ever want to see trapping become extinct, and for that purpose there is a joy in teaching others and passing the hobby down to future generations. I hope to be that guy someday. To this end, allowing a jr. on your line fulfills this goal and money is not involved in this element.

The second, is the business and economic segment and for this, the structure can have all or some form of upfront payments, milestones, royalties (fur payments), earn-outs, whatever on a percentage of that which is being licensed. This is a typical license agreement. You're the owner and I know you paid a lot, so how much are you giving up economically depends on what the jr gets to keep or not, and you should want to structure a deal that makes sense for both parties, not only in terms of the absolute $$s, but the timing thereof.

Given what traplines go for, I don't see how it works without this second piece unless you're talking family, or unless the jr. comes on for a very short period of time to "learn the way". Even then, you might consider they pay you a flat fee, just like a trapping course.

BTW, the economics of trapping do not justify the current market price of any trapline to make it a worthwhile pure business case for a new buyer. It's a hobby, unless you enjoy losing money on an investment or have an unlimited timespan to pay off the principal on a line, not to mention a $20K snowmachine, truck, etc. But, it's still a hobby that I personally spend my hard earned money on, and where I plan to sink money on in the short term.

trapping, as we know it. will become "extinct" if its looked upon as a hobby. i would never take a jr partner on. if he looked at trapping as a hobby.

martinnordegg · #21 03-22-2015, 05:49 PM

My wife is my "junior partner" and that's the way our line is going to stay. We had contemplated selling it this year but decided that's off the plate as well. Good decision!

Torkdiesel · #22 03-22-2015, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

My wife is my "junior partner" and that's the way our line is going to stay. We had contemplated selling it this year but decided that's off the plate as well. Good decision!

I'm glad you decided to keep it martin ! I was just out looking at my new line that we came to an agreement on a few hours ago.
This has nothing to do with JR partners but I am pretty excited and wanted to share

lol

martinnordegg · #23 03-22-2015, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I'm glad you decided to keep it martin ! I was just out looking at my new line that we came to an agreement on a few hours ago.
This has nothing to do with JR partners but I am pretty excited and wanted to share

lol

Let me be one of the first to congratulate you! I know you had another one and let it go so this one must be pretty special.

nube · #24 03-22-2015, 06:49 PM

She is a real special one and congrats Tork. Glad you can talk about it a bit now. I am really pumped for you.

drake · #25 03-22-2015, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I'm glad you decided to keep it martin ! I was just out looking at my new line that we came to an agreement on a few hours ago.
This has nothing to do with JR partners but I am pretty excited and wanted to share

lol

Woohoo! Big congrats. All the best

alder · #26 03-22-2015, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braggadoe

trapping, as we know it. will become "extinct" if its looked upon as a hobby. i would never take a jr partner on. if he looked at trapping as a hobby.

Hobby, sport, tradition, culture, lifestyle, way of life, conservation tool, any or all of the above. Any definition that you like is good. I agree with them all. Whatever you want to feel about it is great. It's not a legitimate commercial enterprise and it's not profession anymore for a new buyer with the going rates of an RFMA. It doesn't put food on the table or a roof over your head if it costs $30-$50K per township and you buy a $20K skandic with a $30K truck to pull it. And there's nothing wrong with that because it's something that means a lot to everyone here just like hunting does, I'm sure. That's all I meant....

MooseRiverTrapper · #27 03-22-2015, 08:29 PM

I call it a hobby. If I called it a business it would be a financially stupid move.

braggadoe · #28 03-22-2015, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alder

Hobby, sport, tradition, culture, lifestyle, way of life, conservation tool, any or all of the above. Any definition that you like is good.

how bout, none of the above?

trappers are independent business men/women. the rfma is a lease(crown land), a commercial venture. used too harvest fur bearing animals. that are in turn sold on the fur market. just like any other commodity.

no different than lumber/O&G/minerals.

and the same with all other businesses. some people make money,some don't. if folks are ok with losing money, thats there decision. but they are still independent businesses.

if your looking for a hobby, maybe orienteering?

alder · #29 03-22-2015, 09:42 PM

Braggadoe, I think I'll let your last words there stand for themselves on what defines commerce. They need no comeback. Good luck with all your commercial endeavours. Yikes.

HunterDave · #30 03-22-2015, 10:00 PM

So trapping is a job then? Let me think that one over.