Alberta Draws and wait times

[Sledhead71]

There seems to be a rather large disconnect between many on the Outfitting industry in Alberta and the presumed effects on the resident hunter. Myself, I understand the importance of sharing our resource, hunter host, partner license, outfitting. All of these "extras" will marginally increase the wait times, but the benefits far outweigh the trouble.

As is being discussed in the Mule deer allocation thread, those opposed to outfitting are sure not bringing forward our hunter host system. The hunter host system is great IMO, but it certainly will reduce available tags.. Why are the ones advocating for change bringing forward this system and the loss of opportunity ?

Then there is the dreaded land owner tags debate, this system has proven to be positive contribution to our hunting heritage here in Alberta. The reasoning here is we are still gaining access to private lands, so something went right not wrong when these rules came to be. Now, I think it is a positive that Joe land owner hunts, they understand the benefit of habitat to all species and hopefully encourage stewardship of their respective lands.

Now, some say Saskatchewan has it right... I personally feel there system blows... I own tracks of land there, all of it is recreational / habitat and I allow many to hunt and enjoy the fruits of my labor. I do not have family there, so even though I contribute to the tax base, I have only been drawn once for Whitetail since the new system came into effect. My friends there do not like the "pool" system which can be a lottery where your buddy gets drawn many times before you do... I have hosted my friends from Sask here, funny I can't be hosted there....

Life isn't fair all the time, but Alberta has it right for the most part and I for one value Outfitting and respect those in this industry. I have travelled the world, used outfitters and feel blessed other country's allow outfitting for hunting.

[Smoky buck]

Host program should not have none residents applying for draws in the same pool as residents. It should be done like BC none residents using the host program should only be valid for none draw hunts

No issues with outfitters just keep allocation to max 10% no exceptions. Major infractions or repeat offenders should loose their license.

Landowners tags I don’t have a real stance on. What I do know it has not motivated anyone I know to allow access to hunters they don’t personally know. These people do protect habitat for game animals on their land but I don’t know if the landowner tags are a factor in this choice

Honestly I see a need for improvement in Alberta’s system. When it comes to draw wait times I personally don’t see away to truly solve it well keeping the priority system. Steps can be made to remove cheaters but I don’t see it making a large impact

That is my honest 2 cents

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Honestly I see a need for improvement in Alberta’s system. When it comes to draw wait times I personally don’t see away to truly solve it well keeping the priority system. Steps can be made to remove cheaters but I don’t see it making a large impact

Pretty much every system thats gone to a preference point system has discovered years down the road that there are some serious issues. A bonus point system often works better, or even a hybrid system. The ROOT problem exists with point creep and its not hard to see that in all of the US states that are dealing with that right now. Alberta seems inflexible to look outward at what other jurisdictions are doing and the possible solutions. Truth be told its too far down the list of importance for most, so often times it turns into conversations about levers to pull to fix, without looking at the main problem that also needs fixing or to be reviewed.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Pretty much every system thats gone to a preference point system has discovered years down the road that there are some serious issues. A bonus point system often works better, or even a hybrid system. The ROOT problem exists with point creep and its not hard to see that in all of the US states that are dealing with that right now. Alberta seems inflexible to look outward at what other jurisdictions are doing and the possible solutions. Truth be told its too far down the list of importance for most, so often times it turns into conversations about levers to pull to fix, without looking at the main problem that also needs fixing or to be reviewed.

If you can dream up a system where you can keep the guys that have been applying for 20+ years happy while someone who get drawn on their first application jumps the que I’m sure AEP would be all ears. The system we have now is broken some sheep draws have a 400 year que it’s a system where who ever started applying first and is still alive will get the tag at this rate. More tags will be like this soon like antelope for example.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Dubious

If you can dream up a system where you can keep the guys that have been applying for 20+ years happy while someone who get drawn on their first application jumps the que I’m sure AEP would be all ears. The system we have now is broken some sheep draws have a 400 year que it’s a system where who ever started applying first and is still alive will get the tag at this rate. More tags will be like this soon like antelope for example.

All options to change the system will anger those who built up priority

So your choices are continue with a broken system or anger dome in the name of change. No matter which way you turn someone is getting screwed

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Dubious

If you can dream up a system where you can keep the guys that have been applying for 20+ years happy while someone who get drawn on their first application jumps the que I’m sure AEP would be all ears. The system we have now is broken some sheep draws have a 400 year que it’s a system where who ever started applying first and is still alive will get the tag at this rate. More tags will be like this soon like antelope for example.

Bonus points work, and allow for a 'reward' of applying. Also a hybrid system of 75/25 preference/random or a 2-pass system that Arizona uses with bonus points and random. A few states seem to have it figured out, but agreed that its laughable when you look at some draws that Alberta has and the current wait times with preference-only based system.

Likely given the fact that its been priority based for so long, altering to a split of priority/random would be the best way to try and walk the line to keep as many 'happy' while also trying to fix the broken system.

[marky_mark]

People will complain if they have to spend more than $5

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

People will complain if they have to spend more than $5

Lol. But there has to be another way. Isn’t there?

[thumper]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

People will complain if they have to spend more than $5

I don't think it's about the cost - it's about the opportunity. I'm thankful for the new 'seniors partner' options. I'll have someone to push my wheelchair and shoot my rifle when my next opportunity for antelope comes up !

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by chuck

Lol. But there has to be another way. Isn’t there?

Restricting the number of applications per individual would be a start...

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Restricting the number of applications per individual would be a start...

You can do that by raising the price.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Bonus points work, and allow for a 'reward' of applying. Also a hybrid system of 75/25 preference/random or a 2-pass system that Arizona uses with bonus points and random. A few states seem to have it figured out, but agreed that its laughable when you look at some draws that Alberta has and the current wait times with preference-only based system.

Likely given the fact that its been priority based for so long, altering to a split of priority/random would be the best way to try and walk the line to keep as many 'happy' while also trying to fix the broken system.

You Will never have the support of anyone with a current priority points in the system for that. Hence the problem. If you think aep is clueless or hasn’t looked at this your dead wrong. With your new split system how can you call it fair for guys with points that now have to be told they are in a b pool and all the pri they have been building for a decade(s) is moot would you just tell them the goal post has moved and they need to suck it up? Or tell people that their priority points arnt worth as much because people that have more disposable income should be allowed to jump the line? will you be able to compete with someone with deep pockets every year or will that just drive the cost and que up while the rich hunt every year?

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by chuck

You can do that by raising the price.

I would be opposed to pricing some out of the draws... To you and I it may not be a big deal, but to others it could be the difference of enjoying the sport.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

People will complain if they have to spend more than $5

Increasing fees is only worthwhile if the funds are going towards wildlife/creating hunting opportunities

Do this and I would agree to triple the cost and be a big supporter of the idea

Increasing the fees to just end up in general revenue I would oppose

[Dubious]

The premiers tag for Alberta sheep just sold last week for $235000 how much would increasing the application fee help. If it’s 50$ per application people will still pay. Hunting in Alberta shouldn’t be the sport of the rich and the reality is it’s a finite resource with more people that want it than the resource will allow with any system.

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I would be opposed to pricing some out of the draws... To you and I it may not be a big deal, but to others it could be the difference of enjoying the sport.

Where are you finding the hunters that can’t afford to pay more for draws? I see my fair share of hunters in a year and the guys that stop by for permission generally have 100 G tied up in a lifted truck and an Atv.

[elkhunter11]

Simply automatically charging the people drawn for their tag, as soon as they are drawn will reduce the number of applicants. I know people that apply for everything they can, because if drawn, they don't have to purchase the license.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Dubious

You Will never have the support of anyone with a current priority points in the system for that. Hence the problem. If you think aep is clueless or hasn’t looked at this your dead wrong. With your new split system how can you call it fair for guys with points that now have to be told they are in a b pool and all the pri they have been building for a decade(s) is moot would you just tell them the goal post has moved and they need to suck it up? Or tell people that their priority points arnt worth as much because people that have more disposable income should be allowed to jump the line? will you be able to compete with someone with deep pockets every year or will that just drive the cost and que up while the rich hunt every year?

I didnt say it was going to be fair.

I know AEP has 'looked at it' and mentioned some '6 year caps' but IMO they havent put much time or energy into it from what I can tell and have ever heard or seen.

Not sure where you're going on the other stuff man.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Dubious

The premiers tag for Alberta sheep just sold last week for $235000 how much would increasing the application fee help. If it’s 50$ per application people will still pay. Hunting in Alberta shouldn’t be the sport of the rich and the reality is it’s a finite resource with more people that want it than the resource will allow with any system.

I don’t believe in pricing people out but I am in full support in investing in the resource we all use

A big reason the US has better management programs then Canada is the money going into programs. The Pittman act is a huge reason for the difference in funding

But I also want throw away money that has no direction

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Dubious

The premiers tag for Alberta sheep just sold last week for $235000 how much would increasing the application fee help. If it’s 50$ per application people will still pay. Hunting in Alberta shouldn’t be the sport of the rich and the reality is it’s a finite resource with more people that want it than the resource will allow with any system.

People in alberta just don’t value our wildlife
Someone is willing to spend 235k usd for the ministers tag
And we can’t even sell 1/3 of the raffle tickets to residents for a whopping $10 each.
Pretty weak

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Simply automatically charging the people drawn for their tag, as soon as they are drawn will reduce the number of applicants. I know people that apply for everything they can, because if drawn, they don't have to purchase the license.

Nothing wrong with that but I would place bets the impact would be minimal

[hilt134]

What about getting rid of the 999 draw, that way people aren’t stacking so many points. It won’t solve everything but at least if people aren’t going to hunt that year they don’t gain a point.

[hilt134]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

People in alberta just don’t value our wildlife
Someone is willing to spend 235k usd for the ministers tag
And we can’t even sell 1/3 of the raffle tickets to residents for a whopping $10 each.
Pretty weak

To be fair, hunting organizations fundraising imagination, starts and ends at a raffle. I think Alberta cares a lot about it’s wildlife. Less so about raffles they aren’t likely to win.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by hilt134

To be fair, hunting organizations fundraising imagination, starts and ends at a raffle. I think Alberta cares a lot about it’s wildlife. Less so about raffles they aren’t likely to win.

The raffles used to always sell out
Sure AFGA is a joke and shouldn’t be in charge of the ministers tags
If this was open to non resident it would be sold out the first day

[hilt134]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The raffles used to always sell out
Sure AFGA is a joke and shouldn’t be in charge of the ministers tags
If this was open to non resident it would be sold out the first day

So the afga is a joke, but if we don’t support their raffle we don’t like wild life. So we could open the raffle up to non residents who support wildlife, so that the joke organization can make the money we don’t want to give them.

Yet agian seems like we support wildlife not raffles. It’s also not a particularly well represented organization. I really didn’t know they did anything till i moved to a town that had a hall.

[sir_charlie]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Where are you finding the hunters that can’t afford to pay more for draws? I see my fair share of hunters in a year and the guys that stop by for permission generally have 100 G tied up in a lifted truck and an Atv.

A 100G truck is likely a reflection of an $90G truck loan, not someone with money. Fact is most people with expensive vehicles don’t own them and they have more debt than most.

Don’t let the chrome rims fool you. The guy driving the 20 yr old Chevy is the one with the money.


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[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by hilt134

So the afga is a joke, but if we don’t support their raffle we don’t like wild life. So we could open the raffle up to non residents who support wildlife, so that the joke organization can make the money we don’t want to give them.

Yet agian seems like we support wildlife not raffles. It’s also not a particularly well represented organization. I really didn’t know they did anything till i moved to a town that had a hall.

The ministers raffle tag allows the winner to have the same opportunity as someone that spends 235k usd on a hunt
You can’t get much better than that from a $20 ticket

As for the money
It should be going back towards the resource
Sheep elk and mule deer
But it doesn’t
Which is a shame

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by hilt134

What about getting rid of the 999 draw, that way people aren’t stacking so many points. It won’t solve everything but at least if people aren’t going to hunt that year they don’t gain a point.

I built up points before there was a 999 option, and if it disappeared, I would do it the same way again. It takes a bit more planning to apply with people that can't draw, once your priority gets high enough, but it isn't difficult to do.

[sir_charlie]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

People in alberta just don’t value our wildlife
Someone is willing to spend 235k usd for the ministers tag
And we can’t even sell 1/3 of the raffle tickets to residents for a whopping $10 each.
Pretty weak

You keep saying we don’t value our wildlife cause tags are cheap - so then I assume you are supportive of a fee to access crown land and grazing leases right? Cause I sure know we all value our public land access and yet is costs $0.

$$ for tags does not equal value or at least is far from the only measure of value. I don’t want to generalize, but someone who pays $235k for a tag likely cares about conservation, but I assume he or she also cares about tax right offs and in some cases bragging.

I’d also argue it’s probably a small % of their total wealth - probably equivalent to me spending 10k on a guided hunt - and so we likely value wildlife the same if you consider % of our disposable income we spend on tags. We often lose sight of the fact that people with money often value $ differently.


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[hilt134]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I built up points before there was a 999 option, and if it disappeared, I would do it the same way again. It takes a bit more planning to apply with people that can't draw, once your priority gets high enough, but it isn't difficult to do.

Fair enough.

Other than that let it buck I guess. If you want to hunt a turkey in Alberta just hope you don’t die in the next decade.