Mule Deer Allocations

[MooseRiverTrapper]

[QUOTE=7magtime;4471521]

Originally Posted by sir_charlie

What is the steady stream of unethical and criminal acts? Are these documented somewhere as cases? I don’t support the overallocation to outfitters that currently exists - simply asking cause it’s a big deal to indicate some outfitters are committing crimes and a few posts on here seem to suggest it.


Here’s just a few involving outfitters after a quick search….

https://m.facebook.com/1579802275611...4719164786800/

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3543879

https://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/ne...108ef23c8b/amp

https://www.stalberttoday.ca/beyond-...-guide-3562732

https://www.yukon-news.com/news/albe...oose-hunt/amp/


The bigger question is how did APOS deal with these convicted outfitters/poachers??

You do realize there is weekly convictions against resident hunters that doesn’t end up in public spotlight?

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I could go down to Vegreville courthouse on a Thursday pre-covid and give you a longer list of resident hunters with gross misconduct towards wildlife and landowners while hunting. So what is your point?

Throw the book at them all both resident hunter and outfitter who abuse’s the system

Just because there is screw ups in both parties doesn’t mean either should be let off with a slap on the wrist.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Alberta definitely needs to improve on residency requirements because there is lots of cheating there. I know it was really bad when the oil field was busy

I don’t think it’s a matter of increasing fees but more so thin out some of the abuse

$4 for 4 people to apply on the same application is adding immensely to the delays
People wonder why it takes so long to get a 410 sheep draw
Well there is only a few options for sheep draws, you have the 438 lottery, and 410
The rest you will never get if your not at the top of the list
So why not apply for $4 in 410?

Draws need to be more money
Plain and simple
There needs to be a 6 month wait to be a alberta resident for hunting, draw applications need to be more money, non residents can’t be in the same pool, And allocations should never exceed 10%

That would straighten out a bunch of the mess

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

$4 for 4 people to apply on the same application is adding immensely to the delays
People wonder why it takes so long to get a 410 sheep draw
Well there is only a few options for sheep draws, you have the 438 lottery, and 410
The rest you will never get if your not at the top of the list
So why not apply for $4 in 410?

Draws need to be more money
Plain and simple
There needs to be a 6 month wait to be a alberta resident for hunting, draw applications need to be more money, non residents can’t be in the same pool, And allocations should never exceed 10%

That would straighten out a bunch of the mess

I would say we pretty much have the same train of thought. Alberta draws are cheap and would not complain about a reasonable increase but not in a manner to price people out

I like and hate the priority system at the same time because there is a point where wait times are unrealistic. Some draws in my opinion will not be solved by anything but removing priority and switching them to random

A hybrid system maybe the only answer but it will anger those with high priority

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

$4 for 4 people to apply on the same application is adding immensely to the delays
People wonder why it takes so long to get a 410 sheep draw
Well there is only a few options for sheep draws, you have the 438 lottery, and 410

You do realize one can buy an over the counter sheep tag right? And one could hunt a way more wmu’s with that general tag.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You do realize one can buy an over the counter sheep tag right? And one could hunt a way more wmu’s with that general tag.

What I’m saying is that people can hunt that general tag every year
While applying for only $4 to hunt 410 or 438
If it take 20 years so be it, your only out $80
Pretty easy to see how it’s clogging up the system
Look at how many guys have 999’d the 410 hunt?
How many guys could pull it at any time but don’t
If all the guys who 999’d that hunt actually pulled it. It would take you almost 15 years more priority to actually get the permit than it did this year.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

What I’m saying is that people can hunt that general tag every year
While applying for only $4 to hunt 410 or 438
If it take 20 years so be it, your only out $80
Pretty easy to see how it’s clogging up the system
Look at how many guys have 999’d the 410 hunt?
How many guys could pull it at any time but don’t
If all the guys who 999’d that hunt actually pulled it. It would take you almost 15 years more priority to actually get the permit than it did this year.

Get rid of building priority on draws! That way if you don’t want to pull a certain tag you just don’t put in for it and that way your priorities don’t go up.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Get rid of building priority on draws! That way if you don’t want to pull a certain tag you just don’t put in for it and that way your priorities don’t go up.

It won’t solve the problem
You still have 400 people with more priority than the people who were selected this year
If you say no 999 anymore
They are all going to take the tag
And anyone below a 12 won’t have a chance until they are a 27

[whitetail Junkie]

I wonder how many special draws go to anti-hunters who don’t even buy the tags as I’m sure that’s clogging up the system aswell...I’m sure the government has stats/could provide stats on what draw tags don’t even get purchased.

its been mentioned before on here that auto charging a credit card should instantly occur when a draw tag is rewarded...

[Chuck_Wagon]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It won’t solve the problem
You still have 400 people with more priority than the people who were selected this year
If you say no 999 anymore
They are all going to take the tag
And anyone below a 12 won’t have a chance until they are a 27

We've all taken advantage of 999'ing, but it has certainly created a problem.
999'ing should be stopped and draw allocations changed to 60% based on priority and 40% random to slowly resolve the issue. Or maybe 70-30?
That at least would give new hunters a chance for tags other than generals.
and drop outfitter tag numbers to 80% of current to increase resident opportunities.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I could go down to Vegreville courthouse on a Thursday pre-covid and give you a longer list of resident hunters with gross misconduct towards wildlife and landowners while hunting. So what is your point?

I guess your reading comprehension isn’t up to par. My point was. With the outfitters/guides illegal activity in the media, it gives good reason for the bad reputation
151000 resident hunters in Alberta, of course there are going to be some that break the rules. It’s not a perfect world. They get convicted and lose hunting rites also.
The difference is they are not making any profit from it. Outfitters and guides are. And if the profit is high enough there is very little deterrence.
Seems to me that you think illegal activity is ok when done by outfitters because residents do it.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by huntwat

I guess your reading comprehension isn’t up to par. My point was. With the outfitters/guides illegal activity in the media, it gives good reason for the bad reputation
151000 resident hunters in Alberta, of course there are going to be some that break the rules. It’s not a perfect world. They get convicted and lose hunting rites also.
The difference is they are not making any profit from it. Outfitters and guides are. And if the profit is high enough there is very little deterrence.
Seems to me that you think illegal activity is ok when done by outfitters because residents do it.

Another classic post about high outfitting profits. Hoping to meet one of these big bad outfitters one day that can call outfitting their primary income.

[45-70GOV]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

There needs to be a 6 month wait to be a Alberta resident for hunting

That's a big item that gets overlooked alot. Especially with the transient nature of the labour pool in the oilfield. Even BC requires you to have valid provincial ID with at least 6 months on it before you can hunt. AB should adopt similar requirements

[Smoky buck]

Unfortunately the only way to truly solve long wait times on some draws is do away with priority and go random draw

I believe the other issues should be addressed first but I think some draws priority just won’t work

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Another classic post about high outfitting profits. Hoping to meet one of these big bad outfitters one day that can call outfitting their primary income.

Again, reading comprehension………..

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Unfortunately the only way to truly solve long wait times on some draws is do away with priority and go random draw

I believe the other issues should be addressed first but I think some draws priority just won’t work

What we need to do is just limit the applications you can submit... Put a cap on the draw to 4 and keep things the way they are.. People will prioritize what they actually want to draw and over time clean up the high "hold" priority people.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What we need to do is just limit the applications you can submit... Put a cap on the draw to 4 and keep things the way they are.. People will prioritize what they actually want to draw and over time clean up the high "hold" priority people.

If you mean you can only apply for 4 draws a year I don’t see it making an impact on most high priority draws because the deemand will keep majority applying for those tags

You would likely see an increase in undersubscribed doe/cow tags but little change to priority on high demand draws

I really like the priority system in a lot of ways but when demand reaches a certain point it doesn’t really work anymore

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What we need to do is just limit the applications you can submit... Put a cap on the draw to 4 and keep things the way they are.. People will prioritize what they actually want to draw and over time clean up the high "hold" priority people.

Back in the day there was a MED tag. I think that was what it was called. No draws. The tag allowed to you to shoot a moose or elk or deer. Shoot one of them and you were done. I dont know how sheep, goat, bear or antelope were regulated.
Anyways, maybe not only restrict the amount of draws you can enter, but also restrict the amount of tags you can purchase for antlered and trophy game. I’m sure there will be many against this, but it may allow for more opportunity for the game you prefer to hunt.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What we need to do is just limit the applications you can submit... Put a cap on the draw to 4 and keep things the way they are.. People will prioritize what they actually want to draw and over time clean up the high "hold" priority people.

I said this awhile ago that it should be a cap of 2 draws and there was a lot of crying! You the guys with all the money want to fix things buy pricing the average working joe out of hunting, make only for the elitist. It’ all about the me crowd nowadays.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Back in the day there was a MED tag. I think that was what it was called. No draws. The tag allowed to you to shoot a moose or elk or deer. Shoot one of them and you were done. I dont know how sheep, goat, bear or antelope were regulated.
Anyways, maybe not only restrict the amount of draws you can enter, but also restrict the amount of tags you can purchase for antlered and trophy game. I’m sure there will be many against this, but it may allow for more opportunity for the game you prefer to hunt.

I remember those days.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I said this awhile ago that it should be a cap of 2 draws and there was a lot of crying! You the guys with all the money want to fix things buy pricing the average working joe out of hunting, make only for the elitist. It’ all about the me crowd nowadays.

I would agree with this, limit the number of draws.... I just used 4 to keep the discussion civil.

Myself, purchase general WT, apply for Antlered Mule, Anterless WT, Archery Trophy Antelope and Trophy Antelope. I would remove Elk, moose, sheep and turkey. So personally my priority would decrease over half with only 4 applications.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I said this awhile ago that it should be a cap of 2 draws and there was a lot of crying! You the guys with all the money want to fix things buy pricing the average working joe out of hunting, make only for the elitist. It’ all about the me crowd nowadays.

Completely against trying to price out resident hunters as well. Making things unaffordable is not the way to handle the issue

Maybe just make high priority draws like sheep and trophy pronghorn random no more priority points. It would keep it a level playing field but those with priority built up would be angry

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I would agree with this, limit the number of draws.... I just used 4 to keep the discussion civil.

Myself, purchase general WT, apply for Antlered Mule, Anterless WT, Archery Trophy Antelope and Trophy Antelope. I would remove Elk, moose, sheep and turkey. So personally my priority would decrease over half with only 4 applications.

Split the difference and make it 3 draws. Let’s see for me general would be sheep, black bear, wt. draw would be Pronghorn, Elk, and Mule Deer. When I got one of the 3 draws then move onto moose.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Completely against trying to price out resident hunters as well. Making things unaffordable is not the way to handle the issue

Maybe just make high priority draws like sheep and trophy pronghorn random no more priority points. It would keep it a level playing field but those with priority built up would be angry

Or do so many tags as priority and so many tags as a lottery!

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Or do so many tags as priority and so many tags as a lottery!

It would likely help but probably too complicated for the government to run and they would screw it up lol

Personally I would like to see the system cleaned up before resorting to either option. But I think most can agree change is needed

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I would agree with this, limit the number of draws.... I just used 4 to keep the discussion civil.

Myself, purchase general WT, apply for Antlered Mule, Anterless WT, Archery Trophy Antelope and Trophy Antelope. I would remove Elk, moose, sheep and turkey. So personally my priority would decrease over half with only 4 applications.

I wouldn’t like it but would rather have your idea of 4 draws instead of a lottery type draw for everything.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Or do so many tags as priority and so many tags as a lottery!

lottery for ages 12-17 only

[7magtime]

[QUOTE=MooseRiverTrapper;4471533]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

You do realize there is weekly convictions against resident hunters that doesn’t end up in public spotlight?

You do realize that these infractions are only the ones that are caught?
When they are caught, the fines they get are paid off by the money they received for getting non-residents their animals.
How many times before did these outfitters poach/break the rules and get paid without getting caught?

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Another classic post about high outfitting profits. Hoping to meet one of these big bad outfitters one day that can call outfitting their primary income.

As per post #56 from Torkdiesel below who is an outfitter, it seems to be pretty lucrative for some outfitters…..??

“outfitters investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and wanting 10% of the allocated tags ?”

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

As per post #56 from Torkdiesel below who is an outfitter, it seems to be pretty lucrative for some outfitters…..??

“outfitters investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and wanting 10% of the allocated tags ?”

That’s hundreds of thousands invested is outfit purchase price and improvements. Would have to have a LOT of profitable years to pay that off.