More Inconvenient Truth about Electric Vehicles

[Jimvinny]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

really need to ensure the carbon footprint and environmental impact of electrical consumption is considered when you see by % where North American Electrical Power comes from:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9% Hydropower = 6.5% Wind = 5.6% Biomass = 1.5% Solar = 0.9% Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

Renewables won't be taking over the market anytime soon, either.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by 79ford

99% of the time people drive they dont go very far. It would be pretty convenient to have an electric car most of the time, households usually have multiple cars for multiple purposes. I got a truck for recreation and a very suitable car for work and around town etc.

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

why is an electric car convenient? YOU still have to remember to plug it in every day versus a short stop to top the tank up once every week or two depending upon driving distance.

Then you completely forget how much energy it takes to generate electricity and then move it down wires. Then the conversion of electricity from power then using electricity as power. Versus direct power.

You may not realize that new technology turns the engine off versus idling. Kinda freaks you out the first time you get in such a car and it goes quiet at the stop light.

Using NG and coal to make electricity is cheapest...however the electric car is not. It is not practical in cold climates. In all climates the cost to make and operate and sell an electric vehicle does not makes your money back.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

really need to ensure the carbon footprint and environmental impact of electrical consumption is considered when you see by % where North American Electrical Power comes from:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9% Hydropower = 6.5% Wind = 5.6% Biomass = 1.5% Solar = 0.9% Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

Where does Alberta power come from?



This link tells it all.

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market...DReportServlet

[dmac]

So last week I drove into the Limeridge Mall in Hamilton, Ontario. I was stunned to see a new electric fueling facility recently constructed, not yet operational, on mall property with 20 Tesla electric fueling positions. We are not talking Vancouver here and yet there it was.

I scratched my head so hard, I wound up with a bald spot.

[2 Tollers]

Originally Posted by dmac

So last week I drove into the Limeridge Mall in Hamilton, Ontario. I was stunned to see a new electric fueling facility recently constructed, not yet operational, on mall property with 20 Tesla electric fueling positions. We are not talking Vancouver here and yet there it was. I scratched my head so hard, I wound up with a bald spot.

Not surprised with Ontario. There will be a government subsidy behind this as part of the heavy promotion for electric vehicles. The Fed's had a program out with federal government funds (ie taxpayer dollars) for installation of fast charging stations in urban areas. Submissions required matching funds from province and cities (again taxpayer funded).

The proposal for Edmonton was not successful and we heard that the majority of the funds were distributed in the East.

[bat119]

Mining the basic metals and battery components takes diesel fuel, lots of diesel fuel
transporting the materials to a factory that runs on power from NG
The materials like plastic, paint and safety glass are made from oil products
and transporting the final product to market by rail or truck.

I'm willing to bet it takes more fossil fuel to put an electric car on the road than a smart car burns in its lifetime that's available from factory's that already exist.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by 79ford

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

Comparisons that start with such a strong bias to getting the answer they want.........

So.......lets look at what you conveniently left out;
1) Electrical producing turbines are not 100% efficient.
2) The heating of water to steam is not 100% efficient
3) Transmission of electricity through powerlines has resistance that reduces efficiency
4) All that electrical infrastructure needs energy consumption to maintain it.
5) Batteries are a consumable in EVs and its take energy to make them.

To think that "ZAP", carbon free electricity results and an EV sudden has no carbon footprint and ignoring their total massive energy consumption is pure fantasy analysis. If you want a belief system with religious overtones, then the EV dream is for you. Pretending this belief is fact versus actually doing an unbiased analysis of the true energy cycles/costs is foolishness.

I always have a few question for the EV believers and none can stand answering them, nor can they, because they have conveniently ignored them.
Here goes.

Whats the carbon foot print of hydroelectric? (currently the brainless mantra is zero)

What is the biggest cost in building a hydroelectic dam.

What is the carbon footprint of that cost item?

Whats the carbon footprint effect of the reservior.

Once we covert a substantial number of vehicles to EVs how does the govt replace the massive amount of fuel taxes it current uses to pay for roads and infrastructure AND for the EV buyer rebates?? (its going to have to be a new energy tax and its going to cost)

So if you look at the cost of electricity and the cost of fossil fuel without tax, would that not be the fair comparison to use in the (near/distant depending on your forecasts) the future you're trying to achieve? (if there is no fuel tax govt income to pay for roads, its going to have to be added on to EV electricity eventually)

So if in the future we go from the current fuel taxes with carbon taxes to a carbon tax on electricity (supported by the concept that eventually the govt WILL let the "full carbon impact of electricity" shoe drop when its tax coffers are dwindling) .......want to guess how much that will have to be?

AND after answering all of these truthfully, you think your life/finances are going to be better off, replacing batteries every 5 years and paying for much more expensive EVs and the needed massive carbon taxes??

Its a zero sum poker game, with the govt always taking its cut of every hand (and even cheating a bit on that).

[coyoteman]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

My diesel has an Espar. Starts just fine in -40 with no electricity. Any colder leaving it run all night works pretty good as well. Easy to sleep with the cummins purring outside over night. Comforting...

As much as Scott H from north van would like to have us believe the internal combustion engine's days are numbered, they are going to be around for a long time yet.
I won't see the days of electric construction, agricultural, mining, logging, oilfield, ect... equipment, as well as the vehicles that carry the required personal to those job sites. Sorry to burst your bubble Scott, but that's the way it is. You wanna cruise around downtown vancouver in an electric car, more power to ya. I could care less. Not a bad thing really. Electricity is needed, and in order to produce that electricity, more hydrocarbons are needed to fire the generating stations that are making it. Drive away Scott...do your part in keeping the oilpatch (and coal mines) going.

wow you hit the nail on the head,with a diesel engine purring i sleep like a baby.The genius of the diesel engine,power reliability-electric wont replace it.

[CBintheNorth]

The day it becomes more efficient and cost effective to burn gas to turn a turbine which creates electricity to power an electric motor that propels a vehicle than it is to just burn the gas to propel the vehicle, I'll roll over and die.
Next.

[Dubious]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/c...cles-1.4511489

It’s like they knew people where discussing it.

[lead chucker]

Originally Posted by MinMoose

There are quite of a few cold weather countries that don't think electric vehicles are a problem in the cold...

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...taxation-shift

That must be the left wing gov't news reporting that

[Big Sky]

I've seen the same story that Dubious mentioned.
Most of the articles focus on the autonomous feature of the haul trucks and the impact on the workforce.

This Financial Post article includes the word 'electric' in its description of the haul trucks but does not expand on the electric aspect.

Suncor Energy Inc. says over the next six years it expects to deploy more than 150 electric autonomous haul trucks at its company operated-mines

http://business.financialpost.com/co...pected-by-2019

Anybody on here have any info as to why Suncor is moving to electric haul trucks?

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

I've seen the same story that Dubious mentioned.
Most of the articles focus on the autonomous feature of the haul trucks and the impact on the workforce.

This Financial Post article includes the word 'electric' in its description of the haul trucks but does not expand on the electric aspect.


http://business.financialpost.com/co...pected-by-2019

Anybody on here have any info as to why Suncor is moving to electric haul trucks?

Komatsu is ahead of Caterpillar in regards to autonomous technology. Komatsu haul trucks are not a mechanical drive. The haulers are diesel-electric. Basically a big Diesel engine running a huge generator, running electric drive motors. Suncor wanted autonomous trucks so they went with Komatsu. Caterpillar is playing catch-up in a big way after losing those truck sales.

[southernman]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Komatsu is ahead of Caterpillar in regards to autonomous technology. Komatsu haul trucks are not a mechanical drive. The haulers are diesel-electric. Basically a big Diesel engine running a huge generator, running electric drive motors. Suncor wanted autonomous trucks so they went with Komatsu. Caterpillar is playing catch-up in a big way after losing those truck sales.

Agree, with above, Still a small market at present, on a world wide scale, as many places, there isn't enough quality technical staff, for autonomous trucks,
Interesting how much the heavy industry, has changed in twenty plus years, 25 years ago, when a operator wanted to knock of early, he could just run the transmission shifter to 1st from 7th and blow the tranny, so many weekends wasted, swapping flippen scraper transmissions, now, it wont just wont shift, and logs faults, and abuse codes.
These trucks may be electric drive, but the diesel generator is 2500 plus Hp and burning 4000/5000 or more liters, of fuel a 12 shift.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by southernman

These trucks may be electric drive, but the diesel generator is 2500 plus Hp and burning 4000/5000 or more liters, of fuel a 12 shift.

But it's electric, so it has to be clean and green.....right......

[79ford]

Originally Posted by hogie

So electric vehicles magically stay at a comfortable 21 c year round without using energy?The Windows won't frost up? I can go out at minus 30 take off my jacket and just drive away and not be cold?

Still a lot labour and time that goes into battery production and electricity. No different than making gas and oil.

Yeah, that heat you get at minus 30 is a portion of the waste heat which represents about 70% of your fuels energy value.

Your vehicle wastes about 70% of the energy stored in fuel. When you consider it costs 22-45$ per barrel just to produce oil in alberta and another 40$ per barrel to refine the oil actual net energy creation is probably fairly low then an internal combustion engine with gear boxes and differentials wastes 70% of the energy created by processing and shipping efforts.



There are some readings about net energy creation out there, expensive forms of energy dont really create growth, when energy comes closer to being a conversion process than a creation process it becomes much less benefical to society.

Cheap oil and gas are beneficial, but most cheap and bountifull oil/gas has already been found. Human civilization has been around for millions of years and in 150 years we ve chewed up a good chunk of the oil and gas availible to us.

[Sundancefisher]

Gotta say this made me laugh so hard.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5L2q6hfWo

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Gotta say this made me laugh so hard.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5L2q6hfWo

My God, I remember watching that guy. Wonder how much he's getting paid to spew his opinion as "science"?
It gets really funny at the 5:00 min mark

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Gotta say this made me laugh so hard.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5L2q6hfWo

What is even more entertaining is watching Nye argue in favour of evolution

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by 79ford

Yeah, that heat you get at minus 30 is a portion of the waste heat which represents about 70% of your fuels energy value.

Your vehicle wastes about 70% of the energy stored in fuel. When you consider it costs 22-45$ per barrel just to produce oil in alberta and another 40$ per barrel to refine the oil actual net energy creation is probably fairly low then an internal combustion engine with gear boxes and differentials wastes 70% of the energy created by processing and shipping efforts.



There are some readings about net energy creation out there, expensive forms of energy dont really create growth, when energy comes closer to being a conversion process than a creation process it becomes much less benefical to society.

Cheap oil and gas are beneficial, but most cheap and bountifull oil/gas has already been found. Human civilization has been around for millions of years and in 150 years we ve chewed up a good chunk of the oil and gas availible to us.

What are the efficiencies of coal and gas fuelled power plants? I don’t honestly know. Are they 45% efficient like internal combustion engines? I would guess you would know. If you are making posts about how inefficient an ICE is; I would assume you know the numbers of an EV. So if a power plant isn’t drastically more efficient than an ICE why would you encourage people to use a less efficient process when your point was waste?

If my diesel harnesses 45% of the energy of a litre of fuel plus it’s also using waste to heat a cab; so it’s not actually waste. So it’s more like 47% efficient. Now what is the efficiency of our power plant. How much energy is lost burning that coal to boil water?Never mind the overproduction of power to run buffers for demand spikes. Now let’s consider grid and transmission losses. Now we then convert that AC to DC to charge our battery. Another loss. Depending on the age of the battery itself may experience more loss. Are EV drive motors DC or AC? Do we have to convert again back to AC? Now we need to run lights, computers, heater motors, clocks and all the other gadgets, what efficiency is lost there. Now the biggest “parasitic load” will be the creation of heat. Electric heat is wildly inefficient. We still haven’t even driven down the road yet. What amount of energy directed to the drive motor is wasted just to turn the wheels?

Will this drop us far lower than the 47% efficiency of an ICE? What are the numbers? If you think an ICE is wildly inefficient what is a true efficiency of a coal fired EV?

[barsik]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

The day it becomes more efficient and cost effective to burn gas to turn a turbine which creates electricity to power an electric motor that propels a vehicle than it is to just burn the gas to propel the vehicle, I'll roll over and die.
Next.

not that I want you to die, but that's pretty much how a diesel electric locomotive works. I think it has more to do with economically delivering energy to the drive wheels than it is about efficiency. it is cheaper to manufacture and maintain these D/E systems than transferring the diesel torque to the drive wheels. matter of fact, the majority of extra large construction and mining equipment use electric motors for mobility and other functions. can one then transfer this method of locomotion to smaller commercial and personal vehicles, using a smaller gasoline/diesel engine to spin a generator sending power to electric drive motors? it probably would be a bit lighter, reliable, and more durable...as long as the components are properly designed and built. in a pinch you could have power for your house if the lines are down.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by barsik

not that I want you to die, but that's pretty much how a diesel electric locomotive works. I think it has more to do with economically delivering energy to the drive wheels than it is about efficiency. it is cheaper to manufacture and maintain these D/E systems than transferring the diesel torque to the drive wheels. matter of fact, the majority of extra large construction and mining equipment use electric motors for mobility and other functions. can one then transfer this method of locomotion to smaller commercial and personal vehicles, using a smaller gasoline/diesel engine to spin a generator sending power to electric drive motors? it probably would be a bit lighter, reliable, and more durable...as long as the components are properly designed and built. in a pinch you could have power for your house if the lines are down.

I thought they used the electric motors because of the direct drive torque to the wheels the DC electric motors can deliver.

Anyway, I have always thought that the most sense for an electric vehicle would be one with an onboard diesel genset. Recharge your batteries on the go.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by barsik

it is cheaper to manufacture and maintain these D/E systems than transferring the diesel torque to the drive wheels. matter of fact, the majority of extra large construction and mining equipment use electric motors for mobility and other functions.

No most large mobile equipment isn't diesel electric. Large electric shovels and draglines are powered from the grid. Letourneau loaders are D/E but are the minority in the population or market share of loader sales. Haul trucks are the most common D/E equipment out there. Today I would wager they still make up far less than 50% of haul truck fleets however. I think that will change going forward though. There are a handful of other D/E units, but they are far and few between. The reason for D/E is for incredible instant torque, and less maintenance. They are not really cheaper though. One of the 2 drivers on a Komatsu 930 was over $1,000,000 the last time I installed one. That’s about 5-10 years ago. Labour and oil changes are quicker and cheaper though.

Never really priced it out, but the engine, generator, and 2 drivers on a 930. Compared to the engine, torque, Dropbox, transmission, diff, and final drives on a 797 I would doubt there is a cost savings there. That is an educated guess only though. No numbers to back me up.

[TargetRick]

As a matter of interest, I recently bought an electric car - well, to be more precise, it's a Ford C-Max hybrid electric, which I choose because it's a hybrid electric. It's built on the Ford Focus platform. I owned a 2012 Focus sedan before, so it's a good comparison.

- Interior warmth is quite good, no concern there
- You can't plug it even if you wanted to, because it charges its own batteries onboard as it drives and brakes. Well, you can charge in the block heater, but even that has proven hardly necessary during our -20 degrees cold snap
- Every option known to humanity on this one, and even then the price was only $34K and change.
- Leather interior, Sony stereo, dual-zone a/c, dual power seats... I could drone on, but like I say, every option known to humanity
- It was built in Michigan, USA
- Performance is very snappy indeed, even with the extra weight of batteries. It will accelerate like a scalded cat!
- Lots of room inside - seats fold down for extra space. Hauled drywall in it! Plenty of interior cubbies and pouches and whatnot too
- Very good visibility, what with all the windows. Much better visibility than the Focus sedan
- Lots of lane-warning and backup and frontal nearness sensors, plus a very good backup camera
- It parks itself, both parallel parking and angle parking. It's better at it than I am
- I might have bought a Kia Soul hybrid, my other choice, but the Kia dealer said all the hybrid Souls are going to Ontario and BC, as fast as they can make them. I quote the dealer: "Not yet much interest in electrics out here."
- Quite good looking unit, too. In a very odd but good twist of fate, it only costs $3 to thoroughly wash at the do-it-yourself wash, while the Focus sedan cost $5. I don't know why
- I've driven it to visit family in both Red Deer and Lethbridge, from my home in Calgary. Drives highway just fine, as gas engine cuts in. I'll wait for sunnier weather before trying top speeds
- I do not tow things, so I doubt it would tow much more than a smallish holiday trailer. But as I say, I don't tow
- It is QUIET, very quiet to drive. On electric power, it's almost silent. Quite nice efficiency meters in the car coach you to drive "efficiently" i.e. using electric as much as possible. Your wife might love it! (I jest)
- As for gasoline efficiency, it has so far proven a lot easier on gas than the Focus sedan. The 2012 sedan at best got 7.1 L/100 km; this hybrid, brand new, is getting 6.2 L/100 km. I like it.

So there's a few factual points about an electric vehicle. Come spring, I intend to take my Savage A17 out again to shoot gophers and magpies, so we'll see how the C-Max does on the gravel roads and dirt trails necessary to get to good shooting. I don't expect it will fare badly, since the Focus sedan did OK, but we'll see. I'll keep you posted.

To sum up, there's a whole lot of good about this electric hybrid vehicle. I wouldn't rule out other 'lectrics just on principle. It could end up costing a lot more diesel than you think.

[Stinky Buffalo]

I believe that the two main issues that are holding back the electric car are battery technology, as well as power distribution.

Someone mentioned it on another thread - if you and all your neighbors install quick-charge ports in your garages - could your local section of the grid handle that?

I almost fell over when I got a quote for a battery pack for a Ford Escape Hybrid - north of 16K, and that was years ago. That would effectively make the vehicle a write-off at that stage in its life.

I had high hopes for hydrogen fuel cells - A controlled recombination of the hydrogen with oxygen to produce the current to power an electric motor... Yeah, I know that generating the hydrogen uses energy. I still wonder what happened to that company in Calgary that was developing hydrogen generators based on similar principles as the Stanley Meyer invention - I can't seem to find any trace of them now.

That being said, I was looking at the e-Golf. It's had some issues (like braking to a stop unexpectedly and shutting down, leaving the car like a sitting duck on the roadway) but for my purposes, it would be perfect for commuting (as long as they fix those annoying "bugs"!)

Some provinces pick up the tab for a large chunk of the purchase price of an EV (Ontario does, IIRC) so in that case, it would be a viable option for me. So far I don't know if Alberta has the same offer.

In the meantime, I'll drive my gaspot. Averaging around 6l/100 km. Not too shabby for a commuter.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by TargetRick

As a matter of interest, I recently bought an electric car - well, to be more precise, it's a Ford C-Max hybrid electric, which I choose because it's a hybrid electric. It's built on the Ford Focus platform. I owned a 2012 Focus sedan before, so it's a good comparison.

- Interior warmth is quite good, no concern there
- You can't plug it even if you wanted to, because it charges its own batteries onboard as it drives and brakes. Well, you can charge in the block heater, but even that has proven hardly necessary during our -20 degrees cold snap
- Every option known to humanity on this one, and even then the price was only $34K and change.
- Leather interior, Sony stereo, dual-zone a/c, dual power seats... I could drone on, but like I say, every option known to humanity
- It was built in Michigan, USA
- Performance is very snappy indeed, even with the extra weight of batteries. It will accelerate like a scalded cat!
- Lots of room inside - seats fold down for extra space. Hauled drywall in it! Plenty of interior cubbies and pouches and whatnot too
- Very good visibility, what with all the windows. Much better visibility than the Focus sedan
- Lots of lane-warning and backup and frontal nearness sensors, plus a very good backup camera
- It parks itself, both parallel parking and angle parking. It's better at it than I am
- I might have bought a Kia Soul hybrid, my other choice, but the Kia dealer said all the hybrid Souls are going to Ontario and BC, as fast as they can make them. I quote the dealer: "Not yet much interest in electrics out here."
- Quite good looking unit, too. In a very odd but good twist of fate, it only costs $3 to thoroughly wash at the do-it-yourself wash, while the Focus sedan cost $5. I don't know why
- I've driven it to visit family in both Red Deer and Lethbridge, from my home in Calgary. Drives highway just fine, as gas engine cuts in. I'll wait for sunnier weather before trying top speeds
- I do not tow things, so I doubt it would tow much more than a smallish holiday trailer. But as I say, I don't tow
- It is QUIET, very quiet to drive. On electric power, it's almost silent. Quite nice efficiency meters in the car coach you to drive "efficiently" i.e. using electric as much as possible. Your wife might love it! (I jest)
- As for gasoline efficiency, it has so far proven a lot easier on gas than the Focus sedan. The 2012 sedan at best got 7.1 L/100 km; this hybrid, brand new, is getting 6.2 L/100 km. I like it.

So there's a few factual points about an electric vehicle. Come spring, I intend to take my Savage A17 out again to shoot gophers and magpies, so we'll see how the C-Max does on the gravel roads and dirt trails necessary to get to good shooting. I don't expect it will fare badly, since the Focus sedan did OK, but we'll see. I'll keep you posted.

To sum up, there's a whole lot of good about this electric hybrid vehicle. I wouldn't rule out other 'lectrics just on principle. It could end up costing a lot more diesel than you think.

Curious as to value.

So you are saving about $250-300/year on gas.

2017 cmax SE was $27,000
2017 focus SE was $22,000

$5000 difference.

At 25,000/year savings on gas you need to drive over 16 years to save the money.

[dmcbride]

Until my cell phone battery works when it is -30 I will pass on the electric vehicle.

[wolf308]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Another “finger in the dike” thread.

Lol. Finger in the dike ...... ummmm

[Mistagin]

After being driven out of Ft. Mcmurray by the wildfire and knowing we couldn't go back for a while, I looked (briefly) at electric when shopping for my wife's around town commuter car here in Kingston, Ontario. We purchased a 2016 Ford Focus, non-electric. She puts on about 9,000 km per year.

The EV version was over 10K more, gov't rebate at the time was 3K, so 7K more for the car. The ev model was touted to go about 120 km on a charge. That wouldn't even get us to our daughter's place and back (she is about 80km away from where we've been staying)!!!

Batteries projected to last about 8 years. Replacement batteries - over 10K !!!

I have no idea of the extra cost on the electricity bill to charge such a car.

I decided I can buy an awful lot of gas for that little car for the cost of 'going green'

[79ford]

Originally Posted by coyoteman

wow you hit the nail on the head,with a diesel engine purring i sleep like a baby.The genius of the diesel engine,power reliability-electric wont replace it.

Most large shovels etc in mines etc are electric, 99% of rotating equipment is electric in most stationary applications. Put a fan on the rotor and change the air cleaners a few times per year, change the oil on two bearings totalling maybe five liters tops on a 2000 horse electric motor once or twice a year and they are good to go.

The only thing that can match electric motors for reliability are steam turbines but they have governor testing and sentinels etc plus circulating oil systems/cooling systems to deal with.

Electric motors themselves are far superior in so many aspects to the combustion engine