Good Day / Bad Day

[markg]

Had some mixed results at the range today. I attempted to hit my gong at 1000m. I failed miserably. 10 rounds no hits. I had a spotter using his Lecia 10x42 binoculors but he was not able to see where I was missing. Tried to make a few adjustments but we had no idea what our point of impact was. On the positive side it gives me something to work toward.

On the good side I had shot a very nice 600m group. 5 Shots were in an area of around 4 to 4.5 inches so close to 1/2 moa. I was very happy with that. I think I have the skills I need to hit at 1000m just need to buy a camera or something to be able to know where I am missing so I can change my shooting solution.

I am shooting 6.5x47 with a 123 scenar going 2950fps. My SD is only 1.9 and my extreme spread is 5 on my load so that is definately not my problem. I used 9.2 to 9.8 mils of elevation for that distance according to iSnipe and LRBC (that includes coriolis) shooting west to east. wind was less than 4 mph almost exactly cross.

I am slightly disapointed that I didnt get a hit but It definately has me motivated to fix my problem. I used google eartth for the disatance as neither my range finder or my buddy's give us this distance. I was thinking that if i got a gps unit they might have a point to point measure feature?

[Digger1]

I just put out a big old sheet of plywood so I can see where the wayward bullets are landing. Cheaper than a camera.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by Digger1

I just put out a big old sheet of plywood so I can see where the wayward bullets are landing. Cheaper than a camera.

A camera might be cheaper than the number of sheets I'd need.

[Sask Bearman]

If you're that good at 600, a couple sheets of throw away plywood would be all you need. Good luck!

[qwert]

Gongs are good for group fun and instant gratification, but (IMHO) provide little real information or accurate data.
I would be suspicious of Google Earth supplied range information.

As others have suggested, a larger (and more reflective) target may be helpful for obtaining both POI and laser range information.

A live target cam can provide instant results, or (I use) a GoPro set to photo @ one minute timed interval for later analysis.

Especially since this is your own range,

I suggest you actually measure the target distances using a tape or chain, (place permanent steel marker rods under a small cairn of rocks),
(even a wheel and counter has lots of possible error unless the ground is quite smooth and level).
If you have access to a transit, precise slope information would be nice.

A good topographic map will provide approximate altitude ASL, or use a Kestrel very recently calibrated with an accurate altitude ASL, (small airports are what I use, as field or ramp access is usually easier). Once you have obtained an accurate altitude for your firing point, it can then be used as an accurate elevation for regular setting of Kestrel altitude & barometric pressure.
A pilot’s current ‘Canada Flight Supplement’ will provide magnetic runway headings, as well as magnetic variation that can be used verify topo map specs to convert magnetic headings to true north.

The Nav Canada route planning website
https://flightplanning.navcanada.ca/...b&TypeDoc=html
is an excellent source for current and forecast meteorological data.
Enter airport ID for closest reporting airports that result in a route over your range.
Get a pilot to help you learn how to use and decipher the system.

Accuracy is always nice but precision is our real goal,
as once that is obtained, accuracy can then be achieved with proper ballistic calculation, scope adjustment and wind reading.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Beeman3]

I agree with a larger backstop. If you are consistent at 600 yds, I believe that you are not shooting at 1000 yds. Have you shot at 700,800,900? I was out today and I was off a bit at 700 yds. May need to tweak my program. Barrrl has 200 rounds through it and may of gained some speed. It’s not off by much, maybe half MOA at 500 yds. But off that much at 1000 is to much. Did shoot a 1.25” three shot group at 500 yds. Also with a 6.5x47 and 130 Bergers. If I was you I’d look into buying a good rangefinder.

[J0HN_R1]

Sounds like a "spotting scope" is what you need...

[markg]

Originally Posted by qwert

Gongs are good for group fun and instant gratification, but (IMHO) provide little real information or accurate data.
I would be suspicious of Google Earth supplied range information.

As others have suggested, a larger (and more reflective) target may be helpful for obtaining both POI and laser range information.

A live target cam can provide instant results, or (I use) a GoPro set to photo @ one minute timed interval for later analysis.

Especially since this is your own range,

I suggest you actually measure the target distances using a tape or chain, (place permanent steel marker rods under a small cairn of rocks),
(even a wheel and counter has lots of possible error unless the ground is quite smooth and level).
If you have access to a transit, precise slope information would be nice.

A good topographic map will provide approximate altitude ASL, or use a Kestrel very recently calibrated with an accurate altitude ASL, (small airports are what I use, as field or ramp access is usually easier). Once you have obtained an accurate altitude for your firing point, it can then be used as an accurate elevation for regular setting of Kestrel altitude & barometric pressure.
A pilot’s current ‘Canada Flight Supplement’ will provide magnetic runway headings, as well as magnetic variation that can be used verify topo map specs to convert magnetic headings to true north.

The Nav Canada route planning website
https://flightplanning.navcanada.ca/...b&TypeDoc=html
is an excellent source for current and forecast meteorological data.
Enter airport ID for closest reporting airports that result in a route over your range.
Get a pilot to help you learn how to use and decipher the system.

Accuracy is always nice but precision is our real goal,
as once that is obtained, accuracy can then be achieved with proper ballistic calculation, scope adjustment and wind reading.

Good Luck, YMMV.

Thanks as always for great advice QWERT

[markg]

I did have a range camera. It was the Caldwel version but it was a POS and the clamp that held the camera to the tripod broke when I took it out of the box and tried to connect it. Made of very weak and cheap plastic. A 2 thumbs down review from me.

I am seriously thinking of getting one of the fancy ones now, just a bit worried about shooting it at this distance. Its a bit pricey though.

https://targetvisioncam.com/

[J0HN_R1]

Originally Posted by markg

Its a bit pricey though.

https://targetvisioncam.com/

Exactly...

Why spend $1000 on a proprietary "range camera", when you could get a really decent spotting scope that could be used for hunting as well ?

And if you're missing the target by enough distance, the camera won't be any help getting you on target anyways...

[qwert]

Originally Posted by J0HN_R1

Sounds like a "spotting scope" is what you need...

Even VERY good alpha glass has problems seeing small holes through mirage.

Originally Posted by markg

I did have a range camera. It was the Caldwel version but it was a POS and the clamp that held the camera to the tripod broke when I took it out of the box and tried to connect it. Made of very weak and cheap plastic. A 2 thumbs down review from me.

I am seriously thinking of getting one of the fancy ones now, just a bit worried about shooting it at this distance. Its a bit pricey though.

https://targetvisioncam.com/

I cannot justify the cost of a live target cam system.

I do not have a full video camera, and my SLRs and Point n Shoot cameras are limited to <30 minutes of video.
(IIRC there is a high duty on cameras with >30 minutes of video.)

I use an old GoPro camera mounted on a short tripod placed to the side in front of the target.
(Just making do with what I already had. Total cost $0.)
The GoPro is set to take photos @ one minute timed intervals.
IIRC it will take ~150 photos over 2.5 hours.

It does not provide live results, but my biggest need is for POI identification information, which can be obtained (at home later) by scrolling through the photos and marking the target hole locations, (and drop), in the order they appear, and then entering the POI & drop in the load record of all other information for that specific shot.

A live cam would provide live results and be much better for wind training, but I mainly use it for long range Audette ladder type testing.
I do need to record particulars of each shot as it is made.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Beeman3]

A spotting scope or camera is not going to help if you can't tell where you are hitting. Where I shoot at gongs there's bush behind the gongs. If I have a spotter looking through the spotting scope and miss the gong we still don't know where we hit. A large backstop I feel is your best bet. But as said earlier you first must know the EXACT range you are shooting at.

[Don_Parsons]

Sounds like your ready to jump into the clay bank shooting sports Mark.

You get to be your own spotter on top of that.

Pace out your distance, launch 2 or 3 for shot placement indicators, adjust and get at it.

Let the Kestrel wind meter along with & hand full of survey stakes with ribbons along the distance guide you onto target.

I normally do the 1 k stuff here in Alberta, then the 1700m I practic in Southern BC.

Shooting features is a blast.

Quick and fast with no targets to put up,,, and the distances are endless.

Good luck in your shoots my friend.
Today I'm on day 2 of shooting fourm building, then off to the Windy clay banks in the new year.

I'll send you a pm Mark, your more than welcome to join in if something like this sparks your interest.

Don

[FishHunterPro]

A good spotting scope and a phoneskope works great. The video footage is great and you can spot hits on the steel with no issues and misses on the backstop.

This photo is just a screenshot from a video I did at 920yrds and I lost a bit of quality uploading it here. It's pretty cool how far you can zoom in on targets. A bit of mirage this day to.

[markg]

I went out again today and tried. No better luck. I will be going out with a tape measure and stake it out to make sure what I think is 1000 is in fact 1000.

[Don_Parsons]

PM sent my friend.

It is like being part of the dream, but in real time
Ha.

Let's call it real TV.

Don

[Beeman3]

I am very curious to see what you come up with for a distance. Something just doesn't make sense if you are shooting good at 600 yds. Obviously your shooting program must be on. Unless you have been off that far on wind calls at 1000 yds.

[duceman]

accept the facts for what they are.

ballistic programs are great and useful, if all the inputs and conditions are exact.

ballistic programs are nothing more than 'close', until you actually shoot the distances and tweak the b.c. numbers to match actual drops.

ballistic programs really are not required for serious long range shooters. a good range finder is required. set up your target, start at 100m, move back 100m at a time, shoot a group, record the drops. fabricate a drop chart and keep it with the gun. a plate at least 30" tall is a minimun, unless you like loading and shooting so much that shots taken that produce no useful data are ok with you.

or buy a huskemaw

[elkhunter11]

This is exactly why I would never shoot at big game animals at 1000 yards.

[Clint 0778]

My guess would be your range is out, if your range finder will give you 500 or so yards , stand somewhere in the middle of your range, range target then turn around and range to shooting position. Good luck

[Smokinyotes]

I think a good dirt backstop is necessary to spot misses. Without being able to see where your hitting a guy can waste lots of lead.

[markg]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

This is exactly why I would never shoot at big game animals at 1000 yards.

I couldnt agree with you more.

Ever since I began this quest to hit a gong at 1000 I have been thinking about how far I would take a shot at a game animal. I think for me that number is 600 meters. I can consistenly hit at that range and I know that the cartridges I am shooting will have enough energy to humanely harvest an animal.

[markg]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I think a good dirt backstop is necessary to spot misses. Without being able to see where your hitting a guy can waste lots of lead.

This is exaclty what is happening^^^^^^^^^^^

[Don_Parsons]

Here is the multi use tool for long distance shooting, long range critter sporting with shaky hands. And a all round tool for many other things in life.

The word is Sony Handy Cam.

Optical zoom of 30x and digital 60X's.

About$249, $495, $678, $1000+, on up to $2300 depending on what features a person is after.
https://m.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/s...5bkit/10360980

They make great spotting scopes, and record the all with steady shot. Very very clear with Zeiss lenes.

A person can set-up at firing line or closer to target.

This was my first long range system back in my 308 days.

Don

[Smokinyotes]

There are several different kind of bullet cams, they all will take pics of your target to spot your shots. Its when you are not hitting the target that you have no idea where they are going. Some sort of dirt backstop is required so you can spot your misses. I know i have gone out shooting 1100 yards when my dirt pile is covered in a bunch of fresh snow. It makes spotting misses difficult.

[Don_Parsons]

Yes, sporting misses, the trick that helps in the winter time is to spread a thin layer of "white" poly over the back stop if there is too much snow, that way the bullet holes are easier for the cam-corder can pick-up on.

It might be wize to allow for 10' or 12' feet of view in the lens,,, this works out to 5' or 6' on either side of the V bull,,, if Windy,,, allow for more cam-corder view.

That way the user can zoom in on the actual areas of impacts during review time.

If the shooter has a loose soil dirt bank, then the cam-corder will pick-up the impacts "hopefully."

It took a few attempts for us to get things working, that way a person can perform long range target shooting on their own if they choose.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Don

[6.5 shooter]

Be like the guys on the interweb and have your buddy stand down range by the target and call your shots......

[Don_Parsons]

Ha, I suppose. Wize to hide behind the wall.

Yes to cam corder, Cannon Power Shot 720 with 40 zoom, or the good old fashion smart phone,,, if the recorder will stay alive for 15 to 20 minutes.

That way a person can set it up, walk to firing line to launch the valleys of bullets.

Take a rake or shovel to smooth out the dirt on the back stop and get at it.

If the winds are blowing, then be happy with the vertical. LOL. I call it the egg or foot ball pattern.

My Christmas presents this year are the range finder and Kestrel. Both will help with the ballistic calculater.

Don

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

snip
My Christmas presents this year are the range finder and Kestrel. Both will help with the ballistic calculater.

Suggest you consider a
Kestrel 5700 Elite meter with AB
https://kestrelmeters.com/products/k...ied-ballistics

or a 4500 NV with AB
https://kestrelmeters.com/products/k...llistics-meter

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Don_Parsons]

Yes

The 4500 for sure, simple place to start.

Our fab shop is soon to build 1 of the largest F Class five ring 6' fold up 1 km iron gongs.

Made of hardened light thin iron for small bore 243, 6.5 Cree, 308 & weak 30/06.

Dosen't matter if the iron takes impact dints since they can be pounded flat at the end of the year. LOL.

Ain't much punch left at 800 to the 1 k mark.

The 3 large rings will be quarter by 4 / hinged to fold up, and a 2 peace solid center rings 16" with center of 5 1/2".

Placement stack is outer rings in the lead followed by each of the other 4 stacked behind one another.
That way the camera with pick-up what ring gets tagged first.

Black ring center, white, orange, sharp true-sus green, and lavender pink out side. LOL. The gals got to pick their colour to you know. LOL.

This first one is going to be a prototype 100%.
That way we can add to it as needed.

The drawing allow space between the rings for swing, then the bottom edges will have bolt on weights to adjust for impact swing.

Ye Ha. This by far in going to be the funnest build to-date.

My friend next door can punch them out in less than a minute on his plasma table.

Can't wait to see what a light weigth 6 gong looks like, bet it will be challenging to tag it at the 1700 m mark this summer in the BC shoot.

Always good times

Don