500 meter elk

[Freerider]

Originally Posted by Daslogster

High bc is the creedmore's claim to fame. An excellent target round with low recoil. I have done plenty of long range shooting and hunting and found that to keep enough retained energy with acceptable (1/2 MOA) field accuracy for elk, 30 cal min, 300 win mag or equivalent or 338 cal. Those are enough to get a hunting bullet through an elk at the 500 m plus ranges, emphasis on the plus. As was previously stated, not great retained energy on the 6.5, which doesn't matter for paper, does matter going through bone etc. If you limit shots to 500 m, then you can push a 6.5 or 7mm round that far but shot placement is very critical, I have seen shoulder shot with a 6.5 at 540 m and go way to far before getting anchored with a 30 cal partition.

Going to have to disagree with you about needing a .30 or bigger. Run the bullets through a reputable ballistics app. Quite frankly the case doesnt matter just look at the bullet and the velocity. I shoot a 168gr 7mm at 2950 from my 24in hunting rifle. I recently got a 300wsm because I wanted to be able to run the newer 212 grain bullets for better down range performance however when I ran the numbers in my ballistic app. At reasonable velocities inside of 500m the difference in energy and wind drift was negligible this is where 95% of hunting happens. Yes beyond 500m if you can start a 212 at least 2750 it will out perform my 168 7mm. So then I looked at what case could push the 212 grain at that speed. I don't think the 300wsm can do it why deal with the extra recoil for minimal gain in hunting rifle.

[Pathfinder76]

Here is me next to my 8 year old son while he is shooting 6” targets at 400yds in windy field conditions. With a 223 no less.

[BigJon]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I’m not sure if I’m thick headed or just old and stupid, personally I don’t see the fascination with the 6.5 creedmoore.

The sole purpose behind the 6.5 Creedmoor is that is fits better in a short action rifle with high BC bullets than any other main stream 6.5 chambering. Shorter case, steeper shoulder angle...

Even if not going with high BC bullets the 6.5 Creedmoor makes good sense due to the seating depth latitude gained over a 260 Rem.

Velocity is close enough to be meaningless between the two. Same for killing effectiveness. As it stands today I would pick the Creedmoor. And I may put one together before next fall rolls around.

As far as distances and elk.... I'd spend more time worrying about steering bullets correctly in the wind at the mentioned distances than I would worrying about if the chambering/bullet is up to the task.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Freerider

Depends on a bunch of things first how far can you hit a milk jug everytime under the conditions you'll be shooting in. Bullet selection different bullets are designed to kill in different ways. Myself I shoot a bullet designed to fragment and kill that way in order to do this properly it needs to be above 1400fps so I use that number. Next and for myself 9X out of 10 this is the limiting factor and I find the most over looked how good is your range finder. inside of 400 you can be off by nearly 50m on your range and likely still get a hit past 500 you need to now your range within 20m. Can a 6.5creedmore do it for sure as long as you can make the shot I've ran the numbers for my 260rem pretty much a twin of the creedmore and on paper I could go out to 800 reality. I limit myself to 500 but only if everything is perfect no wind I am confident of the range and I have a stable prone position. The reality is with Modern bullets and rifles that are very accurate the calibre is no longer the limiting factor 98% of the time its the shooter.

I don't see your assessment regarding choice of a caliber being no longer the limiting factor as being any more valid today than it was 50 yrs ago. The very same principle apply. Modern bullets and powders are available for all cartridges and calibers. In no way will a 6.5 caliber, as good as it is, using all the modern goodies, ever equal a larger caliber with the same components. A 6.5 caliber will always be a 6.5 caliber. A good cartridge in .300 or .338 caliber is still a much better choice as an longer range hunting tool... 100 % of the time. No way around it... even when the larger calibers are using ancient components. This is, of course, assuming any and all longer range shooters, regardless of the caliber used, have the ability to pull these shot's off.

Good on those who know what they don't know.

[Beeman3]

I shoot a 6.5X47 so it is similar to the Creed. I run the 130 Berger Hunting at just under 3000 fps. I like to use 1800 fps for a impact velocity and 1000 ftlbs. In my rifle this means my effective range is 700 yds. Even under perfect conditions I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting a elk at this range. Even a deer sized animal I feel is pushing it. If confident and a perfect broadside shot and double lung, maybe a 4-500 yd gun. Now my 300 WIN MAG shooting 215 Bergers is a whole different ball game.

[Fisherpeak]

[QUOTE=Freerider;3724049]Going to have to disagree with you about needing a .30 or bigger. Run the bullets through a reputable ballistics app. Quite frankly the case doesnt matter just look at the bullet and the velocity. I shoot a 168gr 7mm at 2950 from my 24in hunting rifle. I recently got a 300wsm because I wanted to be able to run the newer 212 grain bullets for better down range performance however when I ran the numbers in my ballistic app. At reasonable velocities inside of 500m the difference in energy and wind drift was negligible this is where 95% of hunting happens. Yes beyond 500m if you can start a 212 at least 2750 it will out perform my 168 7mm. So then I looked at what case could push the 212 grain at that speed. I don't think the 300wsm can do it why deal with the extra recoil for minimal gain in hunting rifle.[/Q


^^^^^ This especially the part about 95% of shots within 500 yards. I shoot a 30.06 with 165 Federals, every time I pull the trigger the elk or moose or deer goes down, either in it`s tracks or very shortly after.Here is the trick. Sight your rifle 1 inch high at 100 yards,. NEVER take a stupid shot. Solid rest at a stationary target. Winner every time. You don`t need fancy dancy crap. You need common sense.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Fisherpeak, I like your common sense, good old 30-06 can handle anything in our Canadian bush. Now if you are going to shoot elephants thats a different story!.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by chuck

In all fairness, some people shouldn’t be shooting at game inside of 200 yds. Much less giving advise on the internet to those who can shoot circles around them.

I have this vision of you standing up, dropping the mouse and walking out of the room.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Just be sure to remember that you are dealing with a live game animal and you are responsible to give it the best death that you can. If you are at all hesitant about the shot, or you "hope" that you hit it good; it is too far and you need to either close the distance or wait for another opportunity to present itself.

There were some hunting programs on television and a lot of YouTube videos where (in my opinion) they were using game animals as live targets in order to either impress others, or to promote and sell long range gear to hunters. They always show you the clean kills but never show the footage of them shooting the bottom jaw off an animal or hitting them in the paunch. I am positive that there were animals that died long, drawn out horrible deaths as a result.

There are guys out there who I am sure can nail targets all day long at extreme ranges. There are also a lot of hunters who just don't get a lot of trigger time throughout the year and their comfort zones might not exceed 100-200 yards.

[Freerider]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I don't see your assessment regarding choice of a caliber being no longer the limiting factor as being any more valid today than it was 50 yrs ago. The very same principle apply. Modern bullets and powders are available for all cartridges and calibers. In no way will a 6.5 caliber, as good as it is, using all the modern goodies, ever equal a larger caliber with the same components. A 6.5 caliber will always be a 6.5 caliber. A good cartridge in .300 or .338 caliber is still a much better choice as an longer range hunting tool... 100 % of the time. No way around it... even when the larger calibers are using ancient components. This is, of course, assuming any and all longer range shooters, regardless of the caliber used, have the ability to pull these shot's off.

Good on those who know what they don't know.

Good point I shouldn't of said no longer the limiting factor reality is the human pulling the trigger has always been the limiting factor barring a small percentage that train a lot and can effectively shoot farther then rounds like the 6.5creedmore are effective to. The 6.5mm bullet isn't the problem though its how fast its going 6.5creedmore can probably push a 140gr bullet 2800fps 26nosler pushes that same bullet 3200 (a guess not super familiar with the nosler) the 26 nosler is going to be effective a hell of a lot further. Cartridge selection is all about balance their is no denying that a .30 or .338 boomer pushing a heavier bullet at the same speed or faster is more effective at further distances thats physics but those benefits do not show up until well past 500m. In a dedicated long range hunting rig yes that is the way to go but it comes at the expense of a usually much heavier rifle with a lot more recoil. I just don't get the have to have a magnum school of thought unless you really think your going to be taking shots in the 800-1000m range.

Here is some data for my personal rifles all zeroed at 100m with a 10mph wind

260rem 130gr berger muzzle velocity 2850 (be similar to the creedmore for the OP)
500m 48.5in drop 15.5in drift 2000fps 1166ft/lbs (marginal for elk good for deer)
1000m 322in drop 75in drift 1318fps 502 ft/lbs (paper only)

280AI 168gr Berger Muzzle velocity 2950fps (My go to hunting rifle)
500m 45in drop 13in drift 2177fps 1768ftlbs (Enough for any game animal in North America)
1000m 289in drop 60in drift 1527fps 870ftlbs (Marginal for deer)

300wsm 212gr ELDx Muzzle velocity 2700fps (theoretical just got this rifle haven't worked up a load for it yet but this is the goal)
500m 55in drop 12.5in drift 2044fps 1967ftlbs
1000m 335in drop 60in drift 1482 1034ftlbs energy (borderline enough to hunt at this distance in my opinion)

Played with the numbers to see how fast I would have to push the 212gr ELDX to get velocity and energy I would be comfortable with on elk at 1000m I wanted a minimum 1250ftlbs I don't totally agree with using ftlbs as a measure of how effective it will kill bullet construction has a lot to do with it. But it is generally accepted and if I have that much energy I would have the velocity I want for my bullet type.

.30 212gr ELDX at 2900fps
1000m 282.5in drop 52in drift 1630fps 1251ftlbs

So in order to hunt elk with this bullet at 1000m I need to find a case that will push it at least 2900fps in a 24in hunting barrel (personal preference going to a 26in barrel would gain you about 50fps) I don't think a 300win mag would do it I could be wrong I don't have a win mag I bet a 30nosler would do it. But then I would need to go drop a $1000+ to get a range finder that would accurately range a animal at that distance.

I also played a bit with figuring out what my margin for error in range at a 1000m would be I decided to allow for 10in above or below my point of aim for a 20in total Kill zone I think that's pretty generous.

980m 272.2in at 1000m 282.5in at 1020m 292.5in so that means that if you are off by 20m in you range at that distance your looking at a miss or wound that's not even taking into account that your probably in field conditions at best grouping MOA at 1000m so your bullets are going to land some where in a 10in circle around your point of aim so 5in in either direction if you do everything perfect. So elk is at 1020 instead of 1000 and you happen to fire that one bullet that goes 5in lower you are now looking at a 15in miss low. To many variables for me to take that shot.

These are just my opinions there is a lot more factors to long range shooting then just getting the biggest boomer out there. I love practicing at long range 1000m plus because it makes my typical 200m or less hunting shot feel oh so easy.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Freerider

Good point I shouldn't of said no longer the limiting factor reality is the human pulling the trigger has always been the limiting factor barring a small percentage that train a lot and can effectively shoot farther then rounds like the 6.5creedmore are effective to. The 6.5mm bullet isn't the problem though its how fast its going 6.5creedmore can probably push a 140gr bullet 2800fps 26nosler pushes that same bullet 3200 (a guess not super familiar with the nosler) the 26 nosler is going to be effective a hell of a lot further. Cartridge selection is all about balance their is no denying that a .30 or .338 boomer pushing a heavier bullet at the same speed or faster is more effective at further distances thats physics but those benefits do not show up until well past 500m. In a dedicated long range hunting rig yes that is the way to go but it comes at the expense of a usually much heavier rifle with a lot more recoil. I just don't get the have to have a magnum school of thought unless you really think your going to be taking shots in the 800-1000m range.

Here is some data for my personal rifles all zeroed at 100m with a 10mph wind

260rem 130gr berger muzzle velocity 2850 (be similar to the creedmore for the OP)
500m 48.5in drop 15.5in drift 2000fps 1166ft/lbs (marginal for elk good for deer)
1000m 322in drop 75in drift 1318fps 502 ft/lbs (paper only)

280AI 168gr Berger Muzzle velocity 2950fps (My go to hunting rifle)
500m 45in drop 13in drift 2177fps 1768ftlbs (Enough for any game animal in North America)
1000m 289in drop 60in drift 1527fps 870ftlbs (Marginal for deer)

300wsm 212gr ELDx Muzzle velocity 2700fps (theoretical just got this rifle haven't worked up a load for it yet but this is the goal)
500m 55in drop 12.5in drift 2044fps 1967ftlbs
1000m 335in drop 60in drift 1482 1034ftlbs energy (borderline enough to hunt at this distance in my opinion)

Played with the numbers to see how fast I would have to push the 212gr ELDX to get velocity and energy I would be comfortable with on elk at 1000m I wanted a minimum 1250ftlbs I don't totally agree with using ftlbs as a measure of how effective it will kill bullet construction has a lot to do with it. But it is generally accepted and if I have that much energy I would have the velocity I want for my bullet type.

.30 212gr ELDX at 2900fps
1000m 282.5in drop 52in drift 1630fps 1251ftlbs

So in order to hunt elk with this bullet at 1000m I need to find a case that will push it at least 2900fps in a 24in hunting barrel (personal preference going to a 26in barrel would gain you about 50fps) I don't think a 300win mag would do it I could be wrong I don't have a win mag I bet a 30nosler would do it. But then I would need to go drop a $1000+ to get a range finder that would accurately range a animal at that distance.

I also played a bit with figuring out what my margin for error in range at a 1000m would be I decided to allow for 10in above or below my point of aim for a 20in total Kill zone I think that's pretty generous.

980m 272.2in at 1000m 282.5in at 1020m 292.5in so that means that if you are off by 20m in you range at that distance your looking at a miss or wound that's not even taking into account that your probably in field conditions at best grouping MOA at 1000m so your bullets are going to land some where in a 10in circle around your point of aim so 5in in either direction if you do everything perfect. So elk is at 1020 instead of 1000 and you happen to fire that one bullet that goes 5in lower you are now looking at a 15in miss low. To many variables for me to take that shot.

These are just my opinions there is a lot more factors to long range shooting then just getting the biggest boomer out there. I love practicing at long range 1000m plus because it makes my typical 200m or less hunting shot feel oh so easy.

I was with you all the way, until I saw "but those benefits do not show up until well past 500m." If you were referring to trajectories, I see that. However, I think the benefits of the larger caliber projectiles show up long before the 500 yd mark in most hunting scenarios. Opinions differ regarding terminal performance but being a displacement junky ....

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by chuck

Here is me next to my 8 year old son while he is shooting 6” targets at 400yds in windy field conditions. With a 223 no less.

Chuck. What does that have to do with anything, I thought your comment on ft lbs meaning nothing was goofy enough until you posted this

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Chuck. What does that have to do with anything, I thought your comment on ft lbs meaning nothing was goofy enough until you posted this

A hole in the right spot matters. I can’t help your inability to shoot straight, and ft lbs mean jack squat. You need to put the bullet in the right spot, it needs to hit the right organs, and needs to cause terminal blood loss. It really is child’s play.

[Joe Black]

Originally Posted by chuck

In all fairness, some people shouldn’t be shooting at game inside of 200 yds. Much less giving advise on the internet to those who can shoot circles around them.

I'm confused.

You're saying you should only shoot game over 200 yards?

And if not, someone will shoot a circle around me?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

I'm confused.

You're saying you should only shoot game over 200 yards?

And if not, someone will shoot a circle around me?

Yea, that’s exactly what I’m saying.

[Joe Black]

Thought so.

Thanks.

[freeride]

Originally Posted by chuck

A hole in the right spot matters. I can’t help your inability to shoot straight, and ft lbs mean jack squat. You need to put the bullet in the right spot, it needs to hit the right organs, and needs to cause terminal blood loss. It really is child’s play.

And of course ft lbs would have nothing do do with a bullet getting to those organs or causing terminal blood loss at all....

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by freeride

And of course ft lbs would have nothing do do with a bullet getting to those organs or causing terminal blood loss at all....

No, it doesn’t.

[freeride]

....okay I am listening.
I am keeping an open mind so care to explain?

[Pathfinder76]

Momentum and bullet construction in relation to velocity create holes long enough to reach vital organs. I can break a hip and reach the lungs with the right bullet with the right momentum. I can also have all the ft pounds in the world fail to carry a bullet through the shoulder of an elk.

[freeride]

Originally Posted by chuck

Momentum and bullet construction in relation to velocity create holes long enough to reach vital organs. I can break a hip and reach the lungs with the right bullet with the right momentum. I can also have all the ft pounds in the world fail to carry a bullet through the shoulder of an elk.

Agreed. I was assuming a good bullets was being used.
Using a fragile gopher bullet with tonnes of ft lbs will still blow up right away and not get to where it counts as you stated.
But you still need ft lbs with a good bullet to punch it's way through if you happen to hit bone on the way. When all the star a line and you miss every bone you can get away with a lighter bullet combo.

[.264 Win Mag]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I’m not sure if I’m thick headed or just old and stupid, personally I don’t see the fascination with the 6.5 creedmoore.

X2 and now all of a sudden every 6.5 is catching one like wildfire! The creed won’t do anything a .260 rem can do and sure isn’t a .264 win mag

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by chuck

Momentum and bullet construction in relation to velocity create holes long enough to reach vital organs. I can break a hip and reach the lungs with the right bullet with the right momentum. I can also have all the ft pounds in the world fail to carry a bullet through the shoulder of an elk.

Yep. Everything Chuck has said in this thread is spot on.

Of course energy matters, since your bullet would be laying still on the ground without it, but it makes a lousy metric for killing effectiveness.

If you are capable of putting a bullet that has enough velocity to expand and penetrate, into the vitals, the animal is going down regardless of what legal caliber you're shooting. I've seen too many critters hit the turf with a shot from a .243 or similar, some at 500+ yards, to think otherwise.

[JD848]

[QUOTE=chuck;3725349]A hole in the right spot matters. I can’t help your inability to shoot straight, and ft lbs mean jack squat. You need to put the bullet in the right spot, it needs to hit the right organs, and needs to cause terminal blood loss. It really is child’s play.[/Q,

delete.

[Pathfinder76]

[QUOTE=JD848;3725538]

Originally Posted by chuck

A hole in the right spot matters. I can’t help your inability to shoot straight, and ft lbs mean jack squat. You need to put the bullet in the right spot, it needs to hit the right organs, and needs to cause terminal blood loss. It really is child’s play.[/Q,

delete.

Laughing!

[Don_Parsons]

A demonstration, not a definitive test. But it is interesting nonetheless.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/...pound-fallacy/

Of course this is the authors view.

Don

[Speckle55]

Shot placement is the key

here is one in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOo6gprtKeA

here is chart

Cartridge
Maximum effective range[35]

7.62×39mm
600 m
5.56×45mm
600 m [36]

7.62×51mm (.308 Winchester)
800 m
7.62×54mm R
800 m
.30-06 Springfield
800 m
7 mm Remington Magnum
900–1,100 m
.300 Winchester Magnum
900–1,200 m
.338 Lapua Magnum
1,200-1,500 m
.50 BMG (12.7×99mm NATO)
12.7×108mm (Russian)
1,500–2,000 m
14.5×114mm
1,800–2,300
...........

here is ft# it takes to get Hyper-static shock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydros...hock_(firearms)


David