Legalize drugs.....

[gl2]

Originally Posted by So Nova *!%

Yes! mandatory jail time for speeding... that is what you were getting at right? harsher penalties for breaking the law.Or is it just the drugs that p!$$ you off?

the punishment should fit the crime....no matter what it is but saying its not my problem so lets stop enforcing rules is completely ridiculous. i bet if you looked into it further most families that are effected by drugs are happy law enforcement are there helping them and not condoning it or making it into a cash grab.... maybe we could have a drug draw just like they do with walleye?....

[So Nova *!%]

read post 21, sums up how I feel,pretty much

[great white whaler]

He who sells meth to a child should get the chair .Booze makes people do stupid things .Legalize pot to people 25 years or older

[So Nova *!%]

Originally Posted by great white whaler

he who sells meth to a child should get the chair .booze makes people do stupid things .legalize pot to people 25 years or older

x1000000000

[gl2]

Originally Posted by So Nova *!%

read post 21, sums up how I feel,pretty much

congrats on the 8 years.....i have seen buddies go down that road and what it does to them first hand, some are better but haven't seen most in a lot in a long time.

[So Nova *!%]

I pulled that one comment, wasn't good of me to say

[So Nova *!%]

thanks

[IR_mike]

Well this was all discussed last week on the immigrant thread.

Bushrat made the most intelligent post on that thread which will address a lot of the posts here.

As far as the example of the drunken hillbillys there was a girl murdered here about 6 years ago and dumped a few miles from were I am typing at the moment.

From what was determined she had a habit of getting coke or meth on credit on the agreement to sell it and reimburse her supplier.

In reality she consumed it or sold it and did not reimburse the supplier.

I guess it was a pattern of her behavior

Two people ended up doing federal time for it.

One for murder the other as a acccesory.

If this girl would have owned a liquor store and refused to pay her distributer there would have been a legal solution through the courts for the distributer to get what was owed to them.

The hard core community alcoholic who used to beat (and god knows what else he did to them) his wife and kids sure did a lot of damage.

They are stilll screwed up as adults and the one I went to school with sure was a disruptive bully who eventually got removed from the school.

The cokehead a few miles down the road who lost his house because of it still has a intact family and kids that are doing well at school and there part time jobs.

I think they learnt from dads example.

I still stand by the addict is a addict statement and think the "2 beer" statement is naive.

Growing up on a farm in the 70's and 80's we only had 2 things ever stolen that we were aware of.

Fuel from a 500 gallon tank outside and liquor from my parents liquor cabinet that was inside the house.

Beings how coke and meth were not even known of at that time would any of the experts explain how "2 beer" would cause someone to enter a residence to steal alcohol?

Gnight all, got to finish my double vodka coke and hit the hay

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

I dont know about that.

24 hour air support, the latest and greatest technology, boots on the ground, oodles of cash, reguler forays into Pakistan over the last ten years........I think we in the west are showing gumption.

As far as the war on drugs is concerned we might as well make coffee, cigarettes, and alcohol illegal so the good guys are in tip top shape to fight it as we have been doing it for 42 years since Nixon declared it in 1969.

Not being a smartazz but do you have any suggestions on how to stop it?
Im sure the RCMP and DEA would appreciate it.

Drugs? You go to jail and stay there. I like the Singapore approach . Afghanistan? Had no business going there, unless we were willing to take action against the guys keeping the Taliban and Al Quaeda in business, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. All we've been doing is chopping away at the tentacles of the octopus. Soon as we leave, she'll be business as usual..



Grizz

[simmered]

I have to agree that being addicted to something whether it is alcohol or illeagal drugs is not much different, and once addicted it doesn't matter what you are on the withdrawl is all pretty much the same. I believe the difference is, the speed to which you get addicted to alcohol. You can have one drink and then not have one for months. These hard drugs are completely different. Once you have your first hit your life changes and all you do is be on the lookout for the next one. I believe this is where the danger lies. Due to the fact that the drugs are illeagal its harder for people to acquire them so people go to much harsher extremes to get them.
I do think the gov't can do much more to help stop this problem than its doing. Whether its with changing some laws to make it easier for the police to search residences that are known drug houses or by doing more funding with rehab centers. As an example there is a clinic in Vancouver that gives out crack cocaine and meth to the homeless drug addicts on the street. This sounds crazy I know but in reality these people are getting the drugs they need, instead of robbing people at ATMS for the cash to go and buy it. They also know that the drug is safe and that its not laced with something, the whole idea about this program is to help the people get over their addiction. More than half of the people using this clinic have been helped and rehabilitated. There is a LOT of controverasy over this clinic as I'm sure most look at it as a leagal drug dealer but how many drug dealers do you know are trying to get there clients to stop. There should be more of those set up.

[MrDave]

I grew up in the bush country thru the 70's and 80's. Right on the edge of civilization. We didn't have to worry about much in the line of hard drugs. We did have a great many Hippies move into the area around us. Everyone I knew smoked home grown weed.
Then it became cultivated pot, it was imported and people started smoking less. Less because they needed less to get buzzed. Now pot is so strong it doesn't even take a full joint to make a smoker high. Lots I know can make a couple of joints last over a day.
Know many people who smoke tobacco who smoke less because it potency has improved?

I always think of the millions of dollars of pot seized frequently. If it wasn't seized it would have sold.
So lets say it wasn't seized, and was sold. That money is practically gone from our economy.
So if the pot smoker could buy a license to grow his own 5 or so plants, his money would enter the government tax base. That person then spends $1000 setting up his grow operation. This sales is taxed, and enters the tax base, plus all the power they use is taxed. So are the fertilizers, and future supplies.
So now if we multiply it by, say a 1/2 million users. That is a huge increase to the governments coffers. I think the number of people who would grow their own is low too. But lets not panic over that, just use it for an easy estimate.
Now who's gonna pay for the huge grow ops produce when they can safely grow it at home? Pot can be grown for far less if the grower really wants to. Simply put, this would take all the profit out of the guys pocket who is mass producing it.

To lump pot in with the deadly crap is purely stupid. I laugh at the harsh attitudes to pot smokers by a few people. Typical loud mouth stupidity. Most of their knowledge comes from movies and the old government propaganda films from the 70's. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the effects of pot? Long term effects I mean, not the I got sick or it messed my mind up stuff. More damaged is caused by this attitude than the pot smokers themselves cause.
Its time to honestly look at the problems caused by the pot, not the person who uses it. I have had people try to tell me its like a health food. lol. No bad effects at all. Real education needs to be looked at.

On the side, I have trouble counting the people I know who smoke it, but I can easily count the number of people I know who have never tried it. Most of THEM are so ignorant of what pot really does, I usually end up laughing at their beliefs of what pot does.

[beansgunsghandi]

Insanity is doing the same thing again over and over again and expecting different results... Prohibition and the war on drugs both created gangsters, cost huge tax dollars, etc. Neither worked. The sane thing to do with marijuana would be to tax and regulate it.

If I were king and could get rid of either alcohol or pot I'd get rid of alcohol. I don't smoke, but it's clear which drug is worse.

Other drugs I'm not so sure on. I did some substance counsellong years ago, it's all not as simple as it looks from the outside.

[cmdalexander]

This is an interesting and age old debate.

I think you reallyhave to look at root causes of prohibition of drugs toget our answers and to see a path forward.

Marijuna - Proibition was progated by the alcohol and pharmaceutical companies at the turn of the century. They were looking to corner the market on articcficial happiness. To this this they demanized marijuana by labeling it as the devils weed. Do to the sentiment of the day (racism) most of the early propiganda was centred around use by african americans - the sentiment was that it would turn you into a crazed lunitic.

Cocane was a drug, centuries old in South America, when South American communist rebels became ivolved and started to gin serious capitalization by exploiting the american market place, the US government got heavily involved.
It was not long after the Cuba crisis and the thought of having well funded, well armed communists close to the US was not acceptable.

This being said, all drugs come with their risks and their harm. Alcohol, tabbaco, prescription pain killers etc. all have their place and uses in society (tabbaco - cerimonial uses for 100's of years -turned into a readily available killer), alcohol has benn used at ceriomies and social gathering for centuries - now the drug of choice for many law abiding citizens and pain killers - most are no more then pattened synthetic replications of naturally occuring substances that reap Billions in profits for multi national organizations.

The choice on weather society allows the legalization of certain substances should be a public debate and not one controlled by the government and powerful corperations who stand to loss Billions in profits.

There are some countries that we can look at around the world to see what happens with the de-criminalization of certain drugs - Portugal, Switerland, Netherlands etc.

I am not a user of any recreational drugs and avoid using any over the counter and\or prescription drugs in all but the most serious circumstances.


I feel strongly about issues such as these becasue government is suppose to represent the best intrest of its citizens and not the best interests of corperations.

[horsetrader]

Originally Posted by MrDave

I grew up in the bush country thru the 70's and 80's. Right on the edge of civilization. We didn't have to worry about much in the line of hard drugs. We did have a great many Hippies move into the area around us. Everyone I knew smoked home grown weed.
Then it became cultivated pot, it was imported and people started smoking less. Less because they needed less to get buzzed. Now pot is so strong it doesn't even take a full joint to make a smoker high. Lots I know can make a couple of joints last over a day.
Know many people who smoke tobacco who smoke less because it potency has improved?

I always think of the millions of dollars of pot seized frequently. If it wasn't seized it would have sold.
So lets say it wasn't seized, and was sold. That money is practically gone from our economy.
So if the pot smoker could buy a license to grow his own 5 or so plants, his money would enter the government tax base. That person then spends $1000 setting up his grow operation. This sales is taxed, and enters the tax base, plus all the power they use is taxed. So are the fertilizers, and future supplies.
So now if we multiply it by, say a 1/2 million users. That is a huge increase to the governments coffers. I think the number of people who would grow their own is low too. But lets not panic over that, just use it for an easy estimate.
Now who's gonna pay for the huge grow ops produce when they can safely grow it at home? Pot can be grown for far less if the grower really wants to. Simply put, this would take all the profit out of the guys pocket who is mass producing it.

To lump pot in with the deadly crap is purely stupid. I laugh at the harsh attitudes to pot smokers by a few people. Typical loud mouth stupidity. Most of their knowledge comes from movies and the old government propaganda films from the 70's. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the effects of pot? Long term effects I mean, not the I got sick or it messed my mind up stuff. More damaged is caused by this attitude than the pot smokers themselves cause.
Its time to honestly look at the problems caused by the pot, not the person who uses it. I have had people try to tell me its like a health food. lol. No bad effects at all. Real education needs to be looked at.

On the side, I have trouble counting the people I know who smoke it, but I can easily count the number of people I know who have never tried it. Most of THEM are so ignorant of what pot really does, I usually end up laughing at their beliefs of what pot does.

You seem to do a lot of laughing at people and their beliefs in your post.

I hear it's easy for simple minds to laugh at simple things.

All so hear that smoking pot makes you simple minded.

Maybe we can connect the dots

[Lefty]

I don't think we have to be worried about it being legalized. British Columbia for a number of years has had a 6 billion dollar a year industry just for marijuana. Add in what is made by organized crime all across Canada and that adds up to how much tax free dollars? Ever wonder where that money ends up? Ever wonder how many legitimate businesses are owned by criminals? The last people that want to see it legalized are organized crime and they have all kinds of money to see that it doesn't happen, and to fight any legislation that might come along. Cops don't want to see it legalized either, so I don't think it is something that will happen.

[NSRfishing]

Originally Posted by Lefty

................................................ Cops don't want to see it legalized either, so I don't think it is something that will happen.

i know lots of police who do not care about Marijuana waste of there time
i also know this from personal experience several times

.................................................. .................................................. .......

In the face of a growing number of deaths and cases of HIV linked to drug abuse, the Portuguese government in 2001 tried a new tack to get a handle on the problem—it decriminalized the use and possession of heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other illicit street drugs. The theory: focusing on treatment and prevention instead of jailing users would decrease the number of deaths and infections.

Five years later, the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006, according to a report released recently by the Cato Institute, a Washington, D.C, libertarian think tank.

"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...riminalization

[CopperJonny]

Seeing as most are concerned about the crimes involved in the pursuance of drugs and not the drug users problems , how about criminalizing the root of evil and 98% crimes everywhere...........money !! It alone has caused more grief and problems to everyone ever , unfortunately the addiction society has gained for the paper and metal , makes it more important to life than...Oxygen or Water.
IF the government was so concerned for our safety and health , they would ban cigarettes and vehicles , not up the taxes to fill there pockets at the expense of citizens lives !!!

[great white whaler]

98% of people over the age of 60 are taking prescription drugs of some sort. My grandmother who just turned 97 years old (god bless her ) quit taking prescription drugs 35 years ago , all her friends have died' gramma says it the prescription drugs that killed most of her friends,.my mom was taking like 16 different pills twice a day ,three days before mom past away she was only 68 years old,i asked her why all the drugs,,she said the doctor said so,the cause of her death was blood thinners which caused a stroke.

[huntinstuff]

I will vote to legalize all drugs right after they legalize citizens hunting down and eliminating druggies who rob and steal and break into houses

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

I will vote to legalize all drugs right after they legalize citizens hunting down and eliminating druggies who rob and steal and break into houses

yes sir,,, X2 million

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

I will vote to legalize all drugs right after they legalize citizens hunting down and eliminating druggies who rob and steal and break into houses

I think those two solutions would go nicely hand in hand.

[ice]

Although its capital is notorious among stoners and college kids for marijuana haze–filled "coffee shops," Holland has never actually legalized cannabis — the Dutch simply don't enforce their laws against the shops. The correct answer is Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

At the recommendation of a national commission charged with addressing Portugal's drug problem, jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy. The argument was that the fear of prison drives addicts underground and that incarceration is more expensive than treatment — so why not give drug addicts health services instead? Under Portugal's new regime, people found guilty of possessing small amounts of drugs are sent to a panel consisting of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser for appropriate treatment (which may be refused without criminal punishment), instead of jail.
(See the world's most influential people in the 2009 TIME 100.)

The question is, does the new policy work? At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe. But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise.

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Portugal's case study is of some interest to lawmakers in the U.S., confronted now with the violent overflow of escalating drug gang wars in Mexico. The U.S. has long championed a hard-line drug policy, supporting only international agreements that enforce drug prohibition and imposing on its citizens some of the world's harshest penalties for drug possession and sales. Yet America has the highest rates of cocaine and marijuana use in the world, and while most of the E.U. (including Holland) has more liberal drug laws than the U.S., it also has less drug use.

"I think we can learn that we should stop being reflexively opposed when someone else does [decriminalize] and should take seriously the possibility that anti-user enforcement isn't having much influence on our drug consumption," says Mark Kleiman, author of the forthcoming When Brute Force Fails: How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment and director of the drug policy analysis program at UCLA. Kleiman does not consider Portugal a realistic model for the U.S., however, because of differences in size and culture between the two countries.

But there is a movement afoot in the U.S., in the legislatures of New York State, California and Massachusetts, to reconsider our overly punitive drug laws. Recently, Senators Jim Webb and Arlen Specter proposed that Congress create a national commission, not unlike Portugal's, to deal with prison reform and overhaul drug-sentencing policy. As Webb noted, the U.S. is home to 5% of the global population but 25% of its prisoners.

At the Cato Institute in early April, Greenwald contended that a major problem with most American drug policy debate is that it's based on "speculation and fear mongering," rather than empirical evidence on the effects of more lenient drug policies. In Portugal, the effect was to neutralize what had become the country's number one public health problem, he says.

"The impact in the life of families and our society is much lower than it was before decriminalization," says Joao Castel-Branco Goulao, Portugual's "drug czar" and president of the Institute on Drugs and Drug Addiction, adding that police are now able to re-focus on tracking much higher level dealers and larger quantities of drugs.

Peter Reuter, a professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Maryland, like Kleiman, is skeptical. He conceded in a presentation at the Cato Institute that "it's fair to say that decriminalization in Portugal has met its central goal. Drug use did not rise." However, he notes that Portugal is a small country and that the cyclical nature of drug epidemics — which tends to occur no matter what policies are in place — may account for the declines in heroin use and deaths.

The Cato report's author, Greenwald, hews to the first point: that the data shows that decriminalization does not result in increased drug use. Since that is what concerns the public and policymakers most about decriminalization, he says, "that is the central concession that will transform the debate."

[Sundancefisher]

I know what can happen if you start with pot. The experimenting may stop with some...but for many it is just a stepping stone to something gut wrenchingly bad! I have not only seen it with my own eyes but also talked with many health care professionals that believe and see the same thing.

Anyone that does not believe this either knows nothing first hand on the subject or as a kid smoked pot and luckily did not take that fatal second step. It does not happen to all...but to some sadly yes. So do we as a society want to increase that number? Some people are prone to acquiring an addiction...do we as a society want to condone drug use?

Drugs are a horrible scourge on our society. To say anything different again...is belittling the negative consequences to lives, families, communities etc.

It is what pimps use to make 10 year old hookers forget what it meant to have a protective father while scum ruin her childhood. It is what makes mothers sell their daughters into prostitution to pay for meth. It what a young twenty something uses or needs just before car jacking a grandfather...putting a bullet in his head and then driving around town partying in. It is why your car gets broken into or your house gets robbed. It is why that bullet crashed into your home, killing your son in bed while he slept (drug fight next door). It is what some kid uses just before getting behind the wheel of a car and killing his girlfriend.

No...anyone on here that believe legalizing pot will help the ills of society is sadly mistaken. All it will do in increase the number of people that make that wrong step by increasing the number of users.

If pot was legal more non users will hear the line from a "friend". Hey...why not try it? It is legal so it can't be bad for you.

Next thing you know...DEATH! What a utterly stupid argument...legalize it and life will be seen through rose colored glasses. Just plain sick.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ice

Although its capital is notorious among stoners and college kids for marijuana haze–filled "coffee shops," Holland has never actually legalized cannabis — the Dutch simply don't enforce their laws against the shops. The correct answer is Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

There are lots of studies on both sides. It is amazing the sheer size of the pro pot lobby. They even have organizations that pay for studies...just like any other lobby group. So what do you believe?

STUDY ON TWINS SUPPORTS VIEW OF MARIJUANA AS A GATEWAY DRUG
by Lindsay Tanner, Associated Press
22 Jan 2003
State Journal-Register

A study of Australian twins and marijuana bolsters the fiercely debated ''gateway theory'' that pot can lead to harder drugs.

The researchers located 311 sets of same-sex twins in which only one twin had smoked marijuana before age 17. Early marijuana smokers were found to be up to five times more likely than their twins to move on to harder drugs.

They were about twice as likely to use opiates, which include heroin, and five times more likely to use hallucinogens, which include LSD.

Earlier studies on whether marijuana is a gateway drug reached conflicting conclusions. The impasse has complicated the debate over medical marijuana and decriminalization of pot.

Because the study involved twins, the findings would suggest that genetics plays a subordinate role in drug use.

The study appears in today's Journal of the American Medical Association and was funded in part by the National Institutes of Health.

It does not answer how marijuana, or cannabis, might lead to harder drugs.

''It is often implicitly assumed that using cannabis changes your brain or makes you crave other drugs,'' said lead researcher Michael Lynskey, ''but there are a number of other potential mechanisms, including access to drugs, willingness to break the law, and likelihood of engaging in risk-taking behavior.''

Lynskey is a senior research fellow at Queensland Institute of Medical Research in Brisbane and a visiting assistant psychiatry professor at Washington University in St. Louis, where some of the research was done.

Lynskey and colleagues acknowledged the study has several limitations, including relying on participants' reporting of their own experiences.

In an accompanying editorial, Denise Kandel of Columbia University's psychiatry department said the study does not explain ''whether or not a true causal link exists'' between marijuana and hard drugs.

''An argument can be made that even identical twins do not share the same environment during adolescence,'' she said.

Study participants were age 30 on average when they were asked about their teenage drug use. They included 136 sets of identical twins, who share the same genetic makeup.

About 46 percent of the early marijuana users reported that they later abused or became dependent on marijuana, and 43 percent had become dependent on alcohol.

Cocaine and other stimulants were the most commonly used harder drugs, tried by 48 percent of the early marijuana users, compared with 26 percent of those who didn't try marijuana early.

Hallucinogens were the second most common, used by 35 percent of the early marijuana twins versus 18 percent of the others.

[BGSH]

why would you legalize drugs, oh wait so the drug dealers can make there tax free money easier, thats perfect great thinking

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I know what can happen if you start with pot. The experimenting may stop with some...but for many it is just a stepping stone to something gut wrenchingly bad! I have not only seen it with my own eyes but also talked with many health care professionals that believe and see the same thing.

Anyone that does not believe this either knows nothing first hand on the subject or as a kid smoked pot and luckily did not take that fatal second step. It does not happen to all...but to some sadly yes. So do we as a society want to increase that number? Some people are prone to acquiring an addiction...do we as a society want to condone drug use?

Drugs are a horrible scourge on our society. To say anything different again...is belittling the negative consequences to lives, families, communities etc.

It is what pimps use to make 10 year old hookers forget what it meant to have a protective father while scum ruin her childhood. It is what makes mothers sell their daughters into prostitution to pay for meth. It what a young twenty something uses or needs just before car jacking a grandfather...putting a bullet in his head and then driving around town partying in. It is why your car gets broken into or your house gets robbed. It is why that bullet crashed into your home, killing your son in bed while he slept (drug fight next door). It is what some kid uses just before getting behind the wheel of a car and killing his girlfriend.

No...anyone on here that believe legalizing pot will help the ills of society is sadly mistaken. All it will do in increase the number of people that make that wrong step by increasing the number of users.

If pot was legal more non users will hear the line from a "friend". Hey...why not try it? It is legal so it can't be bad for you.

Next thing you know...DEATH! What a utterly stupid argument...legalize it and life will be seen through rose colored glasses. Just plain sick.

Sounds right to me.

If only we legalize drugs, think what this young man could do with his life.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=97045

No more life of crime. He could go on to be a poet, or a blacksmith, or a candle stick maker.

[Bushrat]

[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;998196]About 46 percent of the early marijuana users reported that they later abused or became dependent on marijuana, and 43 percent had become dependent on alcohol.

QUOTE]

I think that statement missed the point completely. In most cases alcohol is the gateway drug and its use generally starts before marajuana use and is instrumental in removing the inihibitions and fear of using pot and other drugs. Many young peoples introduction to drugs begins at home, their parents have given them beer or other alcohol at home or at some occasion, i've seen it a thousand times, yet few of those same parents would give or let their kids try pot. Many of those kids who try alcohol at a young age will drink it again if the opportunity arises at a party or wherever. Teenagers under the influence of alcohol and peer pressure are far more apt to try marajuana and other drugs and it's at these gatherings where they become introduced to it. In the vast majority of cases alcohol is the prevalent first steppingstone drug that leads to other drug use.

[Redfrog]

[QUOTE=Bushrat;998230][QUOTE=Sundancefisher;998196]About 46 percent of the early marijuana users reported that they later abused or became dependent on marijuana, and 43 percent had become dependent on alcohol.

QUOTE]

I think that statement missed the point completely. In most cases alcohol is the gateway drug and its use generally starts before marajuana use and is instrumental in removing the inihibitions and fear of using pot and other drugs. Many young peoples introduction to drugs begins at home, their parents have given them beer or other alcohol at home or at some occasion, i've seen it a thousand times, yet few of those same parents would give or let their kids try pot. Many of those kids who try alcohol at a young age will drink it again if the opportunity arises at a party or wherever. Teenagers under the influence of alcohol and peer pressure are far more apt to try marajuana and other drugs and it's at these gatherings where they become introduced to it. In the vast majority of cases alcohol is the prevalent first steppingstone drug that leads to other drug use.[/QUOTE




I"m thinking 'Nope' I haven't seen it "thousands of times" as my study group is smaller than that. I have had lots of Italian friends though the years. They start drinking wine at a very young age as part of their culture.
I can honestly say I only ever saw one guy take one toke in all those years.
I have seen many who had a couple glasses of wine, liquor or beer.
I have also seen families who allowed their kids a cold beer or two after working on a ranch or farm all day. There was no mystery or taboo involved, it was part of life.

If you sit down with your teenagers and party hearty with booze or anything else too get a buzz on, don't be surprised when the train runs off the track. If you teach them responsibility that goes with consumption it is a different mindset.

[beansgunsghandi]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I know what can happen if you start with pot. The experimenting may stop with some...but for many it is just a stepping stone to something gut wrenchingly bad!
If pot was legal more non users will hear the line from a "friend". Hey...why not try it? It is legal so it can't be bad for you.

Next thing you know...DEATH! What a utterly stupid argument...legalize it and life will be seen through rose colored glasses. Just plain sick.

And if you tell your kids, "Pot is illegal, it leads to DEATH!!" then they're going to watch about 80 percent of the kids in their school smoke a joint and survive. This would lead any thinking kid to say, "Pop is a great guy, but he is entirely clueless about reality. I mean, he said it was OK to drink beer sometimes, but my friend died when he drove his car into a tree... "

Kids need facts and solid decision making skills, not scare-mongering nonsense. I have yet to see anyone smoke a joint and start a fight. You can see how alcohol does that in pretty much any bar on Saturday night. Pot smokers don't in general beat their spouses when high. Pot is in almost all ways a far superior drug to alcohol, it's just that one is legal and one isn't, and there's no good reason for it. I am far more afraid of my kids drinking than smoking a joint at a bush party. Alcohol really ruins your judgement, pot just makes you too lazy to do much of anything destructive...

People will always take drugs, that's reality. Some will be legal (prescription stuff is an epidemic), some won't, but to expect that we'll all become Mormons is unlikely. And I know a fair number of Mormons who smoke anyhow, plus all the prescription meds...

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Many young peoples introduction to drugs begins at home, their parents have given them beer or other alcohol at home or at some occasion, i've seen it a thousand times, yet few of those same parents would give or let their kids try pot. Many of those kids who try alcohol at a young age will drink it again if the opportunity arises at a party or wherever. Teenagers under the influence of alcohol and peer pressure are far more apt to try marajuana and other drugs and it's at these gatherings where they become introduced to it. In the vast majority of cases alcohol is the prevalent first steppingstone drug that leads to other drug use.

I don't believe that because that is not what I saw growing up.

I saw kids first started to smoke...then they tried pot...then they got into drinking...some smartened up but some then tried other drugs.

I have seen and been to parties where their was every drug possible. I had good self confidence when it came to not needing to be drunk or on drugs to have fun. I can be just as crazy and silly without losing my ability to think for myself rationally.

I saw many instances where a kid was using pot...then while high tried coke or hash. The sad thing is once you are on that path it takes something deep inside you to stop...some just don't have that. Some people that try any drug are instantly addicted. ANYONE trying meth is addicted after the first time...no if ands or buts about it.

I know what I saw and I know how these situations develop. I have talked to many guys especially that said "I tried pot and I turned out fine...it was harmless". Maybe they got off lucky...but if their daughter got addicted because he voted for legalizing drugs...sad...but serves him right. If she was pimped and murdered...extra tragic...but you get what you ask for.

Prohibition decreased alcohol related problems...but society wanted it back. Then you had increased alcoholism, domestic violence, drunk driving etc. Sure I like to drink...but I drink responsible. Some do get addicted to alcohol but not as many that are addicted to drugs. You open Pandora's box on drugs and society will be visited big time.

Studies show in Holland that hard drug abuse has INCREASED since the stopped enforcing their laws. Their cannabis usage rate is high. They have violence issues with tourists coming in to use and are now making it illegal to sell to tourists. They thought the drug problem would be diminished but in fact they have taken the fear out of using drugs and the consequences thereto.

It is a slippery slope folks.