Marlin 45-70 guide gun VS 12gauge defender

[emrich-55]

Just wondering which gun would be better option for a bear protection gun, for hiking with.
Lets here your guys pros and cons for each. Looking to buy one just don't know which one would be better.

[Deer Hunter]

A pistolgrip defender and five OObuck weighs 6.2 lbs and is more compact than a full size lever gun

[Hogie135]

just do a search for bear protection on this forum. Its very recently been covered.

[emrich-55]

Originally Posted by Hogie135

just do a search for bear protection on this forum. Its very recently been covered.

Did that, nothing really says which would be better. People just asking if its legal to carrie for protection.

[pickrel pat]

if you ever need to use it, i would go with the marlin. you might actually hit it with a sighted rifle and would probably get better penetration.

[Frans]

Guide gun with decent bullets. Much better penetration.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

A pistolgrip defender and five OObuck weighs 6.2 lbs and is more compact than a full size lever gun

I've been in sketchy situations with both guns.The only way this shotgun can be even a little effective is with lots of practice shooting from the hip or with a stock. I had a wounded black bear at ten yards and out of, I believe it was five shells, long story short as he was wobbling away and I took three shots and I gave the gun to my buddy and he took two....I hit him once.That bear we tracked and followed through some nasty stuff for two days and never got him and he had a ballistic silver tip in his shoulder and some 30 cal ssg's in him after that day I sold my shotgun and never shot ballistic silver tips again. My main thoughts as well as the fact that a marlin 4570 is much more effective is that it has other applications. I shot a moose with mine and a bear at a hundred and fifty so yards and one at 20 yards and closing. Just my thought from my experiences I know other people have a different opinion.

[pseelk]

A 30-30 lever gun is probably as effective as either one .Its light and cheaper to shoot and absolutley devastating at close range.

[orionab1]

450 marlin is a great one in the marlin 1895g.

[KI-UTE]

The 450 Marlin is kinda sad.
http://www.hornady.com/store/450-Marlin-350-gr-FP/e 450


How bout this... a 416 Remmington Magnum. It hit's twice as hard as the 45-70. That would be serious stopping power. Instead of just making the bear really really mad, you actually make it dead... and then that means that you are still alive standing there before the magnitude actually sets in.

http://www.hornady.com/store/416-REM-MAG-400-GR-DGS/

The Winchester .338
http://www.hornady.com/store/338-Win...Superformance/

Serious stopping power... the 416 Rigby
http://www.hornady.com/store/416-Rigby-400-gr-DGX/


Here's the 45-70, it's kinda sad
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-70-G...EVERevolution/

[lyallpeder]

Do you know how to modify a guide gun so it shoot reliably? I know I can't. I bought a guide gun this winter only to discover it would jam until I make modifications to the iner parts. I returned it for a defender, and it's never had a jam.
Just my 2 cents

[ACKLEY ABE]

Yip you're right...something is kinda sad.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by lyallpeder

Do you know how to modify a guide gun so it shoot reliably? I know I can't. I bought a guide gun this winter only to discover it would jam until I make modifications to the iner parts. I returned it for a defender, and it's never had a jam.
Just my 2 cents

It involves modifying the snail cam. Always been an issue, not just the new Remington Marlins, before somebody starts running them down.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

if you ever need to use it, i would go with the marlin. you might actually hit it with a sighted rifle and would probably get better penetration.

Bear attacks happen real quickly...not a lot of time for using sights of any type. Point and shoot. If a bear is far enough away to use your sights, you probably don't have to shoot him.

[Jamie Black R/T]

big lead from a guide gun would serve better than buckshot 10 times out of 10.

if you want a shotgun then forget buckshot and learn to shoot slugs accurately at 10-15 yards....and put a stock on that thing for gods sake...this isnt the movies where hip shooting actually works.

[bigshell]

The guide gun with heavy cast boolits would be my first choice.But having said that in a situation where you need to shoot the range will be close and you'll likely only have time for one shot anyway.

[sdkidaho]

No advocates for bear spray?

[Jamie Black R/T]

this topic is not about bear spray.

two options were given...and surprisingly this thread has stayed on track....until now of course

[Whiskey Wish]

I think one of the factors that counts high is the fact that people need to practice with the weapon they intend to use.
Muscle memory is important at the best of times but becomes critical in moments of crisis. That is why police officers and military practice with the weapon they intend to use in a moment of crisis.

We as hunters, on the other hand, take our pet hunting rifle out to the range and push lead out to whatever yardage makes us smile. We go gopher hunting and tin can plinking with our 22's until we know that rifle inside out and upside down. Some of us might even go bust clays by the hundreds until we are able to load, mount and reload our favorite scatterguns with our eyes closed.

Then once or twice, or for some really avid campers 5 or 6, times a year we dig out our bear medicine and carry it over our shoulder then put it back into the safe until next year. If we are really dedicated we might push a dozen rounds down the barrel just for fun. Inadequate practice leads to inadequate results. Period.

Regards,
Dave.

[Brian Bildson]

Practice with your chosen weapon is key for sure.

I pack a 45-70 for protection in bear country along with bear spray, usually two cans. I've had three charges, only one of which was fatal for a bear. The 45-70 has serious knock down power and I've killed bears, moose, elk, and wild boars with mine, one shot kills mostly. I shot a 50" moose that literally rolled completely over at the shot.

But I will offer this. you shoot a grizzly at under 10 yards I'm betting on some kind of contact, maybe not lethal for you. At that range I'd go for my bear spray first and back it up with my fire arm if I was lucky enough to have the time. Stuff goes down real fast in these situations.

Most folks would get one shot off with a 12 guage bear defender before the barrel went skewed from the recoil. With a 45-70 you're locked against your shoulder and a follow up shot way more likely in my opinion.

[bigshell]

Most of the bears I've ran into(close range) have been in the fall during the hunting season,never had to shoot one tho I have fired into a tree beside on two seperate occasions to get them turned and moving the opposite direction

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

Bear attacks happen real quickly...not a lot of time for using sights of any type. Point and shoot. If a bear is far enough away to use your sights, you probably don't have to shoot him.

sure they do.... your right..... however, some bears charge from 50, 75, 100 yards, i would rather get down on one knee, throw my rifle up and get him in my sights of my rifle for this...... no? at very close range you aint gonna have time for jack ****! I would still want a rifle vs. shotgun.

[emrich-55]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

sure they do.... your right..... however, some bears charge from 50, 75, 100 yards, i would rather get down on one knee, throw my rifle up and get him in my sights of my rifle for this...... no? at very close range you aint gonna have time for jack ****! I would still want a rifle vs. shotgun.

My thoughts exactly! There is no chance that a guy will have time to shoulder a gun and shoot, if the attack is a surprise at close range. Thats when you hope the pepper spray works (which I have) or the knife on your belt.
The reason I want to carry a gun is for when you come up on a bear that is on a kill or grazing, the one you see at a little bit of a distance. Then you have time to get prepared and aim.

[Coho911]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XCB4A911SM


Practice !

[orionab1]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

The 450 Marlin is kinda sad.
http://www.hornady.com/store/450-Marlin-350-gr-FP/e 450


How bout this... a 416 Remmington Magnum. It hit's twice as hard as the 45-70. That would be serious stopping power. Instead of just making the bear really really mad, you actually make it dead... and then that means that you are still alive standing there before the magnitude actually sets in.

http://www.hornady.com/store/416-REM-MAG-400-GR-DGS/

The Winchester .338
http://www.hornady.com/store/338-Win...Superformance/

Serious stopping power... the 416 Rigby
http://www.hornady.com/store/416-Rigby-400-gr-DGX/


Here's the 45-70, it's kinda sad
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-70-G...EVERevolution/

Well heck if we don't mind using a mule to carry the gun why don't we pack a 50bmg 647 gr (41.9 g) Speer 3,044 ft/s (928 m/s) 13,144 ft·lbf (17,821 J)

Gun isn't going to do you any good if you don't carry it. That said the best defense against bears is common sense, but this thread asked about a guide gun vs a defender.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

sure they do.... your right..... however, some bears charge from 50, 75, 100 yards, i would rather get down on one knee, throw my rifle up and get him in my sights of my rifle for this...... no? at very close range you aint gonna have time for jack ****! I would still want a rifle vs. shotgun.

I agree. I carry a 45.70 or a .338 in most of the time in the bush and I've had several encounters with both blacks and griz. that could have gone south but your aiming is more instintive than calculated thats where my sight comment comes from. Did I shoot at 100, 75, or 50..no.

The only one that I had to shoot was from the hip at less than 5 yards (.338). And by the way thats all the warning I had, and had no way to shoulder my rifle.

[Hagalaz]

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

But I will offer this. you shoot a grizzly at under 10 yards I'm betting on some kind of contact, maybe not lethal for you. At that range I'd go for my bear spray first and back it up with my fire arm if I was lucky enough to have the time. Stuff goes down real fast in these situations.

Most folks would get one shot off with a 12 guage bear defender before the barrel went skewed from the recoil. With a 45-70 you're locked against your shoulder and a follow up shot way more likely in my opinion.

I agree.

[deanmc]

If you actually practice and can shoot well and have nerves of steel either one will kill any bear.

[sdkidaho]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

this topic is not about bear spray.

two options were given...and surprisingly this thread has stayed on track....until now of course

I probably spelled something wrong too.

Originally Posted by Coho911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XCB4A911SM


Practice !

He obviously has done some practicing. That 45/70 didn't look like it had as much recoil as I had expected, although it was cool of him to post the recoil info in the comments:

Using a recoil formula an 8lbs 30-06 shooting a 180gr bullet at 2700fps will produce appr 23 FT lbs felt recoil.

An 8lbs 45-70 shooting a factory loaded 300gr bullet at 1500fps = 14 ftl/lbs felt recoil.

Top 45-70 loads are producing with a 350gr bullet @ 2100fps = 35 ft/lbs felt recoil

A top loaded 420gr bullet @ 1950fps = 40 ft/lbs

and my 550gr 1580fps loads = 39 ft lbs felt recoil

Recoil is subjective = only you can decide what level of recoil you are comfortable with...

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

i would rather get down on one knee, throw my rifle up and get him in my sights of my rifle for this...... no?

I'm no expert but I've seen this before, guides talking about getting down on one knee as some form of contact from a charge is usually imminent and being down on one knee you're more stable and have less distance to travel if you get knocked down.

I'm liking that 45/70 after watching the video. I saw another video of a guy shooting a nice bull elk and it just bowled him over. Plenty of knock-down power there.

Dad was LEO for his District in the Forest Service. He carried an 870 for grizzly control, alternating loads with 00-buck and slugs.

Did I keep it on-topic enough that time?

In a genuine self-defence situation you'll get one shot at most...at close range. Either will work just fine if you hit the bear right. Neither will if you don't. Worry more about how you shoot than what you are shooting.