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  #391  
Old 09-20-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
No. You are incorrectly interpreting the data.
I will be clearer. What I was saying is I was looking at the wrong stats.

Figure 16: People tested for COVID-19 in Alberta by day. Tests performed for the same person are counted once.


Figure 6 does support you being correct.

Table 6. COVID-19 testing in Alberta
Number (n)
Test volume 1,180,696
People tested 909,443


Am I incorrect?
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  #392  
Old 09-20-2020, 11:20 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Or another perspective...it is now the third leading cause of death in the US.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...-off-1.5067450
Of course it is. I heard George Floyd died of covid too.....
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  #393  
Old 09-20-2020, 12:00 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Distancing is THE gold standard. If you are separated enough from someone that is infected you are safe. The "people in charge" know how to handle infectious situations, it's done all the time. It's been explained over and over and over, yet people refuse to listen. The issue is that there is a certain percentage (larger than I would have thought) that have turned this into a political fiasco. I doubt it will be real to them until they see personally see someone get REALLY sick/die.Even then, I' sure it will be someones else's fault.....
So let me get this straight you believe that distancing is the gold standard, but then support mask use in the general public? You realize that most of the general public does not follow proper sanitization protocol when putting on/taking off a mask and that masks can create a false sense of security. Wash your hands, keep your distance, thats what people should be doing, and what will keep them safe.

This is also the major reason I was against schools re-opening if they feel the virus is as deadly as claimed in April.(I personally don't feel it is, and the research would suggest its not) Kids should not be back in school, in close quarters if this virus is a deadly pandemic like 1918.

Masks should be the last line of defence for places like airplanes or buses where they have to sit close and breath recirculated air. Where staff can help ensure all passengers have sanitized properly, and put the mask on properly. They should not be the frontline defence for the general population with little to no oversight on proper procedures.
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  #394  
Old 09-20-2020, 12:13 PM
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Thankfully since Dr Deena Hinshaw has dropped asymptomatic testing due to the almost non existent positive tests, its pretty clear that asymptomatic infection is not a threat. Some people are annoyed at the government for putting in tight restrictions at the beginning but in their defense, how could they know? They errored on the side of caution and hopefully what they are learning from this will help them make better decisions in the future.
Government needs to be held accountable! Medicine should be evidence based not model based. While I like Bloopbloob, he was on here creating mass panic based on limited data and modeling. Much the same as what happened in government. People in emergency positions need to have a clear head, able to make tough decisions, and not fall into group think. Its clear that government at all levels fell into group think, did irreversible harm to many individuals and businesses, and should be sued for negligence. The only professional who acted appropriately was Dr. Anders Tegnell. He didn't get everything right, but he didn't fall into group think and based his policy off the evidence, not the speculation.
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  #395  
Old 09-20-2020, 01:42 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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So let me get this straight you believe that distancing is the gold standard, but then support mask use in the general public?
Yes. First off, if you are not close enough for the infection to get to you, you won't get infected. That distance varies, but the farther the better. If you are in a close situation then masks are a very valuable tool at limiting spread.
Neither of those precludes proper hand washing.
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  #396  
Old 09-20-2020, 02:01 PM
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Yes. First off, if you are not close enough for the infection to get to you, you won't get infected. That distance varies, but the farther the better. If you are in a close situation then masks are a very valuable tool at limiting spread.
Neither of those precludes proper hand washing.
Exactly, so those in high risk groups should probably not put themselves into a situation where they need a mask to begin with, and be diligent washing their hands. A mask does NOT guarantee their safety. That's what I've said all along.

The mandatory masks are based off public opinion, and give people a false sense of security as I said. People should act like they would if they didn't have a mask, and only really need to wear one if they have no other choice but to be close to others, or are handling food. Mandatory masks everywhere was and is a stupid idea. As is sending kids/teachers back to school, if this disease was severe. Luckily its not.

Also Hinshaw's latest vaccine push is really premature. This push will lead to further distrust of government, and less compliance to government policy. If we ever do get a true pandemic with millions dying in Canada. The governments of Canada and Alberta have ensured that many will not follow their direction because of the severe mishandling of Covid-19.
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  #397  
Old 09-20-2020, 02:57 PM
Glion Glion is offline
 
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Here is an excellent video going through extremely relevant data. It has multiple sources and links included if you desire to research further.
https://youtu.be/8UvFhIFzaac
Has very interesting data trends and tracking now that we have ample data to study.
The theory of "dry tinder" is also very interesting.

On a different note I just talked to a doctor in Alberta here who was in charge of a hospitals response.
His opinion is that it was scary at first but now there is no endgame. The vax will have 40-60% success rate if it gets made. Masks are useless was his opinion and he was very adamant about that. In fact he even went on to say he personally didn't know a single doctor who thought the masks would actually make a difference. But he did say on a positive note people are now only coming to hospitals for real emergencies and thus doctors can spend more time at clinics and it saves the Gov't money.
But anyways that is just the view of 1 doctor here in Alberta and everyone has a healthcare friend they can "quote" however they want.
Oh yes one final thing he said he is not getting the vax at first
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  #398  
Old 09-20-2020, 05:21 PM
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Government needs to be held accountable! Medicine should be evidence based not model based. While I like Bloopbloob, he was on here creating mass panic based on limited data and modeling. Much the same as what happened in government. People in emergency positions need to have a clear head, able to make tough decisions, and not fall into group think. Its clear that government at all levels fell into group think, did irreversible harm to many individuals and businesses, and should be sued for negligence. The only professional who acted appropriately was Dr. Anders Tegnell. He didn't get everything right, but he didn't fall into group think and based his policy off the evidence, not the speculation.
Personally with the exception of Don Iveson making masks mandatory in Edmonton based on a public poll of 3100 people, I feel the rest of the measures were put in place at the time based on the best information available. I think they were just trying to go with the "lesser of two evils" and are now reacting as more information is coming to light. They cannot drop all of the safety measures immediately as that would make them look guilty of error and have a huge blowback against them. They are slowly backing off while making the public feel they are "helping". I would not have wanted to be in their shoes and I do not feel I could have done a better job. All of us at one time or another have been victim of someone unfairly criticizing our work after it was done and we were operating without all of the information.
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  #399  
Old 09-20-2020, 05:36 PM
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Personally with the exception of Don Iveson making masks mandatory in Edmonton based on a public poll of 3100 people, I feel the rest of the measures were put in place at the time based on the best information available. I think they were just trying to go with the "lesser of two evils" and are now reacting as more information is coming to light. They cannot drop all of the safety measures immediately as that would make them look guilty of error and have a huge blowback against them. They are slowly backing off while making the public feel they are "helping". I would not have wanted to be in their shoes and I do not feel I could have done a better job. All of us at one time or another have been victim of someone unfairly criticizing our work after it was done and we were operating without all of the information.
The problem with that is they based their reaction on speculation, not evidence. In medicine you can't just go around doing things you speculate will help a person, but actually causes harm. Thats negligence. Our government speculated that millions would die, and the hospitals would be over run on flawed models. They completely gave up the idea of evidence based medicine, which defines our protocols and how we handle all situations.

Due to this speculation many individuals and businesses were hurt. The government needs to be held accountable for their knee jerk, unprofessional reaction to the crisis. They're now continuing to make life difficult for individuals and business. They need to end the charade, lift the measures and allow life to go back to normal. If an actual disease comes through where our hospitals are being over run or close to capacity, and millions are dying. Then perhaps we look at implementing some measures. But there needs to be evidence that the disease is virulent, not speculative modelling.
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  #400  
Old 09-20-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
Thankfully since Dr Deena Hinshaw has dropped asymptomatic testing due to the almost non existent positive tests, its pretty clear that asymptomatic infection is not a threat. Some people are annoyed at the government for putting in tight restrictions at the beginning but in their defense, how could they know? They errored on the side of caution and hopefully what they are learning from this will help them make better decisions in the future.
Careful. Asymptomatic cases are a percentage of symptomatic. We have a low rate so both are low.

Remember. One case in Alberta was tracked to thousands of cases. So good to know there isn’t a high background of asymptomatic cases. Still studies prove it is a problem and likely as cases climb in a population. Good thing our numbers remain low.
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  #401  
Old 09-20-2020, 05:55 PM
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The problem with that is they based their reaction on speculation, not evidence. In medicine you can't just go around doing things you speculate will help a person, but actually causes harm. Thats negligence. Our government speculated that millions would die, and the hospitals would be over run on flawed models. They completely gave up the idea of evidence based medicine, which defines our protocols and how we handle all situations.

Due to this speculation many individuals and businesses were hurt. The government needs to be held accountable for their knee jerk, unprofessional reaction to the crisis. They're now continuing to make life difficult for individuals and business. They need to end the charade, lift the measures and allow life to go back to normal. If an actual disease comes through where our hospitals are being over run or close to capacity, and millions are dying. Then perhaps we look at implementing some measures. But there needs to be evidence that the disease is virulent, not speculative modelling.
Curious. If Alberta and Canada didn’t impose the initial lock down and social distancing rules and now masks...do you feel Covid19 would be invisible background noise in hospitals throughout this time?
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  #402  
Old 09-20-2020, 06:06 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Exactly, so those in high risk groups should probably not put themselves into a situation where they need a mask to begin with, and be diligent washing their hands. A mask does NOT guarantee their safety. That's what I've said all along.

The mandatory masks are based off public opinion, and give people a false sense of security as I said. People should act like they would if they didn't have a mask, and only really need to wear one if they have no other choice but to be close to others, or are handling food. Mandatory masks everywhere was and is a stupid idea. As is sending kids/teachers back to school, if this disease was severe. Luckily its not.

Also Hinshaw's latest vaccine push is really premature. This push will lead to further distrust of government, and less compliance to government policy. If we ever do get a true pandemic with millions dying in Canada. The governments of Canada and Alberta have ensured that many will not follow their direction because of the severe mishandling of Covid-19.
That's great, thankfully it's not a severe infection.
Have you actually seen a person with an ALI (acute lung injury) from a viral source? Have you ever seen a person paralyzed so you can prone then (stomach down) just so that you can ventilate the last functioning area of their lungs? Have you ever wondered why people who work with patients in these types of situation wear masks happily?
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  #403  
Old 09-20-2020, 07:10 PM
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That's great, thankfully it's not a severe infection.
Have you actually seen a person with an ALI (acute lung injury) from a viral source? Have you ever seen a person paralyzed so you can prone then (stomach down) just so that you can ventilate the last functioning area of their lungs? Have you ever wondered why people who work with patients in these types of situation wear masks happily?
Good thing complications from Covid that result in hospitalization make up a very small percentage of complications across Canada
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  #404  
Old 09-20-2020, 07:43 PM
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Curious. If Alberta and Canada didn’t impose the initial lock down and social distancing rules and now masks...do you feel Covid19 would be invisible background noise in hospitals throughout this time?
I think we may have saw a small uptick in cases, but I don't think it would have been catastrophic.(Despite what the modellers say) I also think that the social distancing advice would have been good as a recommendation, as well as hand washing. I would not have stopped travel, or shuttered business unless we had a problem with our own healthcare system. I would have looked at protecting vulnerable populations and increasing precautions there. All that our health officials have done is cause distrust and skepticism in government. Good luck getting anyone to take a vaccine.

Also far too many people are not looking at the adverse effects of the government lockdown. Suicides up, alcoholism up, drug use up, unemployment up, etc... These things will cause far more death then the coronavirus and will last years past our current state. The government is guilty of groupthink and not using evidence for the basis of its decision. If we look at Covid it's far closer to the 1958 and 1968 pandemics then 1918. No lockdown with either of them, and one held a giant music festival. Time to get things back on track, and restore faith in our public officials. Open it up, if things start going sideways then you can always reimpose the travel bans, etc... based on the evidence.
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  #405  
Old 09-20-2020, 07:47 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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That's great, thankfully it's not a severe infection.
Have you actually seen a person with an ALI (acute lung injury) from a viral source? Have you ever seen a person paralyzed so you can prone then (stomach down) just so that you can ventilate the last functioning area of their lungs? Have you ever wondered why people who work with patients in these types of situation wear masks happily?
I know all about those things, did you ever wonder why professionals are trained on infectious control? Mask usage between a trained professional, in a controlled setting, is not the same as joe blow public, in a uncontrolled setting.
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Last edited by raab; 09-20-2020 at 07:53 PM.
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  #406  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:04 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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I know all about those things, did you ever wonder why professionals are trained on infectious control? Mask usage between a trained professional, in a controlled setting, is not the same as joe blow public, in a uncontrolled setting.
Yes I know that. This has been going on for 8 months now and understanding and using PPE is not rocket science. It's actually very easy to learn proper technique if you have an average IQ and want to learn it. The biggest issue is that people can't be bothered to learn.
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  #407  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:27 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Yes I know that. This has been going on for 8 months now and understanding and using PPE is not rocket science. It's actually very easy to learn proper technique if you have an average IQ and want to learn it. The biggest issue is that people can't be bothered to learn.
Well its true that its a simple protocol to follow. It's very hard to follow the protocol in the real world where you don't have hand sanitizer right beside you every time you put on or take off a mask.
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  #408  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:40 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Well its true that its a simple protocol to follow. It's very hard to follow the protocol in the real world where you don't have hand sanitizer right beside you every time you put on or take off a mask.
Yes it's easy in the real world if you have a tiny bit of common sense. The people that have issues are either quite simple or don't care.
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  #409  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:50 PM
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Yes it's easy in the real world if you have a tiny bit of common sense. The people that have issues are either quite simple or don't care.
I don't know? I was in subway a few weeks ago, the sandwich artist was constantly touch his mask, I made him change gloves three times. At the co op I watched the deli lady touch here mask three times while filling an order. I called her aside and told her to watch herself filling my order. Watching football today, the coaches are constantly at their masks. I don't think any of them are stupid or don't care, they are just not used to wearing a mask and I suspect are not taking it as serious as some think they should. I am at risk and am aware at how many times I fail to fall the correct protocol. Again, I am absent minded and probably don't worry about it as much as maybe I should.

I guess maybe because I screw up so often I have a little more grace for those I see doing it as well.
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  #410  
Old 09-20-2020, 09:07 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Yes it's easy in the real world if you have a tiny bit of common sense. The people that have issues are either quite simple or don't care.
It's hardly an issue of being quite simple or that they don't care. Try keeping a sterile mask while going out to eat. Its simply not an easy thing to do if you make multiple stops, and go out to eat.

Social distancing and hand washing are much easier to follow. They are also more effective in preventing spread.
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  #411  
Old 09-20-2020, 09:54 PM
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Of course it is. I heard George Floyd died of covid too.....
lol
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  #412  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:20 AM
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That's a legitimate question. A large amount of the asymptomatic transmission has occurred in tightly packed indoor environments where people are yelling, singing or raising their voices, thereby forcibly projecting tiny "spit" particles. It's not a coincidence that a lot of infections have occurred in churches, choirs, bars or political rallies.

LOL "Speaking Moistly."
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  #413  
Old 09-21-2020, 06:01 PM
Jdunbar Jdunbar is offline
 
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If we can avoid it. Not a chance!
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  #414  
Old 10-01-2020, 01:27 PM
Donkey Slayer Donkey Slayer is offline
 
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Vaccine, No way!
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  #415  
Old 10-01-2020, 02:25 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Still waiting for the second wave, cases up, no change in the death rate. https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=...4dUDCA0&uact=5
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