$15/hour good for workers? Real life in Seattle shows different.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Easy to pick out business owners and managers. Got to have their slave labour.

To bad so sad attitude to low income earners? The high and mighty.

Those attitudes will bring you more years of NDP. See if you like that more than higher minimum wages.

I'm labour, but I understand economics.

Guess it's not as easy as you pretend it is.

[markg]

I have an Idea, everyone who thinks that people should get a minimum of $15.00/hr donate a percentage of your monthly check and donate it to those who earn less then $15.00. If you truly care about the poor put your money where your mouth is. If your not willing to do it yourself then why is it fair to expect a business owner or the tax payer to do what you personally are not willing to do?



Charity begins at home.

[MrDave]

So here's my deal. I'm a former oil and gas tradesman. Now that I'm worn out, jobs are impossible to find. Facing my second shoulder surgery in 2 days time. When I'm done this I won't be able to lift my arm, already can't kneel down from a prior surgery.
If I go to the local hardware store to work, I'm now only worth $12.50?

Don't tell me to improve myself. I can weld, insulate, gasfit, operate equipment, and so on. But because I can't physically do any of this, I'm supposed to work 3 jobs at minimum wage? Then I get paid the same as a 15 year old. Great.

Business owners abuse the minimum wage, and the employee. Hell I had an employer want to pay me minimum wage years ago for the first year of pipe fitting. Not every employer wants to help the employee to better themselves.

No, minimum wage isn't just being paid to green kids. It's used to screw anyone that they can.

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by MrDave

So here's my deal. I'm a former oil and gas tradesman. Now that I'm worn out, jobs are impossible to find. Facing my second shoulder surgery in 2 days time. When I'm done this I won't be able to lift my arm, already can't kneel down from a prior surgery.
If I go to the local hardware store to work, I'm now only worth $12.50?

Don't tell me to improve myself. I can weld, insulate, gasfit, operate equipment, and so on. But because I can't physically do any of this, I'm supposed to work 3 jobs at minimum wage? Then I get paid the same as a 15 year old. Great.

Business owners abuse the minimum wage, and the employee. Hell I had an employer want to pay me minimum wage years ago for the first year of pipe fitting. Not every employer wants to help the employee to better themselves.

No, minimum wage isn't just being paid to green kids. It's used to screw anyone that they can.

Business owners can choose to be socially responsible (at cost to the bottom line), or choose maximum profit.

I try to frequent the former.

[Scott N]

Is everyone's wage going up? What happens of someone has been employed for 5 years and is making the magic $15 / hour. Will they get a pay increase, or will they be making the same as the new, inexperienced worker starting at $15?

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I'm labour, but I understand economics.

Guess it's not as easy as you pretend it is.

Sure it is.

If there are no rules, you end up owing your soul to the company store.

[Kim473]

Originally Posted by MrDave

So here's my deal. I'm a former oil and gas tradesman. Now that I'm worn out, jobs are impossible to find. Facing my second shoulder surgery in 2 days time. When I'm done this I won't be able to lift my arm, already can't kneel down from a prior surgery.
If I go to the local hardware store to work, I'm now only worth $12.50?

Don't tell me to improve myself. I can weld, insulate, gasfit, operate equipment, and so on. But because I can't physically do any of this, I'm supposed to work 3 jobs at minimum wage? Then I get paid the same as a 15 year old. Great.

Business owners abuse the minimum wage, and the employee. Hell I had an employer want to pay me minimum wage years ago for the first year of pipe fitting. Not every employer wants to help the employee to better themselves.

No, minimum wage isn't just being paid to green kids. It's used to screw anyone that they can.

Hit the nail on the head.

Don't forget the age part of it also. Try finding a job at age 55 - 60 even though you are more than capable of doing the job , probably better than a 20 year old because of your experience and knowledge.

I heard that they are expecting the cost of living going up this year by 5% to 10 % on most things. Including food !

I work for min wage at the moment and it barely pays for the utilities and car insurance.

Machinist and Electrician are my trades.

On $30.00/hr take a 10% pay cut = $27.00/hr
get a raise in a year or two of 5% on that $27.00 = $1.35

Going backwards there and that's not taking into account for inflation.

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Easy to pick out business owners and managers. Got to have their slave labour.

To bad so sad attitude to low income earners? The high and mighty.

Those attitudes will bring you more years of NDP. See if you like that more than higher minimum wages.

"Slave labour"??? Give me a break.
Last I checked, people applied for work (willingly, not in chains) and knew what the wages would be. Don't like the wages or work....don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[HoytCRX32]

The amount of "I deserve just cuz" is astounding. Those business owners everyone are crapping on are the drivers of the economy...wages are one thing, taxes are another. This is turning into a union versus non-union debate (once again).

Adios to this thread before my brain explodes!

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

The amount of "I deserve just cuz" is astounding. Those business owners everyone are crapping on are the drivers of the economy...wages are one thing, taxes are another. This is turning into a union versus non-union debate (once again).

Adios to this thread before my brain explodes!

agreed..

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

"Slave labour"??? Give me a break.
Last I checked, people applied for work (willingly, not in chains) and knew what the wages would be. Don't like the wages or work....don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Awww did I hit a nerve. Minimum wage is lowest they have to pay. If it wasnt there they would pay less. And if you cant live on it well then I will call it Slave labour.

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Awww did I hit a nerve. Minimum wage is lowest they have to pay. If it wasnt there they would pay less. And if you cant live on it well then I will call it Slave labour.

The difference between being a slave and employee is consent.... no one is forcing anyone to work for them, and if you don't get paid for what you think you are worth, move on to a new job.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by MrDave

So here's my deal. I'm a former oil and gas tradesman. Now that I'm worn out, jobs are impossible to find. Facing my second shoulder surgery in 2 days time. When I'm done this I won't be able to lift my arm, already can't kneel down from a prior surgery.
If I go to the local hardware store to work, I'm now only worth $12.50?

Don't tell me to improve myself. I can weld, insulate, gasfit, operate equipment, and so on. But because I can't physically do any of this, I'm supposed to work 3 jobs at minimum wage? Then I get paid the same as a 15 year old. Great.

Business owners abuse the minimum wage, and the employee. Hell I had an employer want to pay me minimum wage years ago for the first year of pipe fitting. Not every employer wants to help the employee to better themselves.

No, minimum wage isn't just being paid to green kids. It's used to screw anyone that they can.

So businesses are suppose to pay you for skills that you can't use?

[rugatika]

There is only one group that forcibly TAKES our labour from us and nobody on the left ever seems to have a problem with them doing so. Want more money in your pocket?...start voting for less government. Simple.

[aulrich]

50+ and unemployed/ needing retraining is a nasty place to be in a tough economy does not matter what you are doing, for any number of reasons

Long term the biggest impact will be lots of kids will miss out on their first job and they won’t learn the basics of what it takes to hold a job and what we will end up with is a ever growing segment of permanently unemployed.

[Bigwoodsman]

Is it the labour rate that is the problem or the taxes we all have to pay to live in this country.

The tax rate Canadians are forced to pay is way out of wack. When we are paying 48 percent of wages to the government that is where the real problem lies.

BW

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Is everyone's wage going up? What happens of someone has been employed for 5 years and is making the magic $15 / hour. Will they get a pay increase, or will they be making the same as the new, inexperienced worker starting at $15?

Million dollar question.....This is going to suck for long term employees....

Everyone making $15 across the board.....other than managers that will have to be increased over the minimum wage.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Awww did I hit a nerve. Minimum wage is lowest they have to pay. If it wasnt there they would pay less. And if you cant live on it well then I will call it Slave labour.

Well unfortunately only you will know what you can live on, or do you expect every employer to gauge employee wages based on how much each employee needs to live on?
The guy that has a large university debt, a drug addiction and 3 kids obviously needs more, so he should be paid more than the guy who has his finances in order, is responsible and well trained?
If your job does not pay enough for you, you have the wrong job. Nobody is forcing you to stay. Why force an employer to pay more?

[rugatika]

So does everyone get to set their own wages and have the government enforce them or is this just another carve-out for a certain group of people again?

[raab]

Originally Posted by Mikeham

Workers should be paid a living wage. If a business owner can't pay a full-time worker enough to scrape by on, maybe the business model should be reconsidered. Workers shouldn't be subsidizing the owner's business.

Don't kid yourself the minimum wage increase is a direct assault on SMALL business. Some that dont even have employees. The government just wants more taxes out of the sole proprietors.

[zippo]

Just out of curiousity doesn't $15/hr push a full time minimum wage worker up into the next higher tax bracket? If it does then the only one benefitting from the wage increase is the government. As for the improve your qualifications crowd its not easy to do, I know because I completed my power engineer 4th class while working full time, started while in the Army and finished while driving gravel truck. Still not working as as one but it got me a good job working as a plant operator in a non power engineer position.

[Peter Gill]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I don't know about that. This survey found the same as most of the rest of them... employment didn't drop when the minimum wage rose. And that's the central argument of those who fight the minimum wage laws.

Did you read the article correctly, and more importantly, did you take the time to read the study itself? Their conclusion is that raising the minimum wage from $9.47/hr to $15/hr resulted in a REDUCTION IN LOWER WAGE (defined by them as <$19/hr) WORKING HOURS. That itself may not translate into fewer employees, but if everyone is working 9.4% fewer hours, that IS a drop in employment.

[Peter Gill]

Originally Posted by Mikeham

Workers should be paid a living wage. If a business owner can't pay a full-time worker enough to scrape by on, maybe the business model should be reconsidered. Workers shouldn't be subsidizing the owner's business.

Oh crap. The issue is capital versus labour: when labour gets too expensive it gets replaced with capital. Self-serve gas stations, self-serve store checkouts, self-serve fast-food kiosks, ATMs, self-serve airport check-ins, self-serve rapid transit tickets...
Organized labour has fought automation and modernization because it costs the jobs and dues of union members.
US Dept of Labour estimates that the capital vs labour point happens around the $12-$13 point.
Last week McDonald's shares hit an all-time high immediately after they announced they were installing self-serve kiosks in 2500 restaurants. Noteworthy is that they started putting them in in France 10 years ago, where labour is so frikking expensive and work rules are absurd.

Finally if, as the "progressives" are so fond of claiming, raising wages is greatly beneficial to the economy, why stop at $15/hr? Why is $15 the correct amount, what data & research supports that labour price point? If $15 is soooo good for the economy, why not $150? Would that not be 10 times better for the economy? And if not, WHY not?

Shot, over.

[Peter Gill]

Originally Posted by zippo

Just out of curiousity doesn't $15/hr push a full time minimum wage worker up into the next higher tax bracket? If it does then the only one benefitting from the wage increase is the government.

Not exactly, you have to understand the concept of "marginal tax rate" or the rate you are taxed on the last dollar you've earned.
For example: if the tax rate on your first $30K is 10%, and 20% on the next $30k, once you earn $30,001 you still pay 10% on the first $30k, and 20% on $1. The "tax rate" (kind of a misnomer, actually) of 20% on the higher income does not affect the lower 10% tax rate on the lower income.
If you have a marginal tax rate of 20%, you do NOT end up paying that rate on all of your income.

That said, the problem with "progressive" tax rates is that they are a disincentive to earn. The UK used to have a 98% marginal tax rate, would you work an extra hour to keep 2 pennies on the dollar?

[Bub]

Originally Posted by raab

Don't kid yourself the minimum wage increase is a direct assault on SMALL business. Some that dont even have employees. The government just wants more taxes out of the sole proprietors.

Originally Posted by zippo

Just out of curiousity doesn't $15/hr push a full time minimum wage worker up into the next higher tax bracket? If it does then the only one benefitting from the wage increase is the government.

Taxes do not work as you think they do.

[Fur]

Originally Posted by Nova

I see the same thing a lot, and any time the "living wage" or "affordable rent" type topics come up locally it is always the people who pop out 3 to 5 kids before they are 25 years old and have even attempted to pursue a career. Then it is whining that the government doesn't do enough for them to "raise their family", while the same day posting wanted ads on Facebook looking for the newest iPad.

How can I raise a family on minimum wage?

If you know you can only swim 5 laps in a pool before becoming exhausted, would you try swimming across a mile wide lake with no help around?

If you have enough gas in your car to go 200km, would you try driving 400km in a rural area, at night, in January?

Both seem like pretty stupid questions to answer yes to. And yet neither are much different than having children when you know you can't afford them. And people just keep on doing it. I find it pretty baffling.

Bingo. I want my hard earned dollars raising my kids, not other people's kids.

[Bub]

Originally Posted by Peter Gill

Oh crap. The issue is capital versus labour: when labour gets too expensive it gets replaced with capital. Self-serve gas stations, self-serve store checkouts, self-serve fast-food kiosks, ATMs, self-serve airport check-ins, self-serve rapid transit tickets...
Organized labour has fought automation and modernization because it costs the jobs and dues of union members.
US Dept of Labour estimates that the capital vs labour point happens around the $12-$13 point.
Last week McDonald's shares hit an all-time high immediately after they announced they were installing self-serve kiosks in 2500 restaurants. Noteworthy is that they started putting them in in France 10 years ago, where labour is so frikking expensive and work rules are absurd.

It's going to happen regardless. Changes are coming and those people working for the minimum wage today and not willing to advance in their life/carrer/call it whatever will have even more difficult times in the not so far future.

[Fur]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Easy to pick out business owners and managers. Got to have their slave labour.

To bad so sad attitude to low income earners? The high and mighty.

Those attitudes will bring you more years of NDP. See if you like that more than higher minimum wages.

To create a successful business means risk, risk to the owner, not the labours.

If your not happy with your wage, go start YOUR own business. I think starting your own business is super easy, most NDP supporters are business owners right?

[Bigrib]

Make the minimum wage 1/3 what the Premier is getting , I can put the province into less debt than she is for that wage . If you can balance a cheque book and have no debt then you already know more than she does

[IceDemeter]

I find it quite sad the number of people who apparently agree with and support the socialist championed idea that a salary or wage indicates the "worth" of the person --- and not the "worth" of the task. The two concepts are deliberately conflated by those who want to be supported and protected by society --- even though they are totally separate and unrelated concepts in reality.

In reality, a wage or salary in the free market is primarily based on the "worth" of the task (how much income it can generate, how much consumers are willing to pay for it), with consideration to the preparation / education / skills / experience brought to bear by the employee which increases the "worth" of that task. It is not the responsibility of the employer, or especially the government, to ensure that ALL tasks are of sufficient economic worth to support a person employed to do that task (regardless of their lifestyle / family choices). It should always be the end consumer that dictates whether the task of supplying a cup of coffee is worth more or less than the task of installing a safe electrical system and is worth more or less than the task of cutting in to a living person and correcting what is wrong with them...

If a person can only find employment serving coffee, or flipping burgers, or cleaning offices, or any other task that is only "worth" minimum wage in the free market, then it is their personal responsibility to either fit their lifestyle to their income, or to make changes to their own education or skill set to improve their chances of getting employed to perform a task that the market values at a higher "worth". They need to recognize the reality that any skills, education, and experience that a person has are only of "worth" if they are actually used in the task that they are performing --- so it is ludicrous to expect an employer to pay for them when they are of no value in the position.

Unrealistically high wage standards dictated by a government, especially in a depressed market, can't magically make the entry level / lower skill level tasks worth more to consumers, and can't increase the income of the businesses that supply those tasks. The "worth" of the people, and what they do (or don't) "deserve" is completely irrelevant to the economic reality. It remains to be seen how long those still employed will be able to sustain the rest in the manner that they "deserve"...