Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-26-2017, 11:38 AM
alta270 alta270 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 445
Default $15/hour good for workers? Real life in Seattle shows different.

We've all heard the NDP mantra that $15 an hour is necessary to lift people out of poverty.

Many have said that it just won't work.

Well, real life experience in Seattle, which has a $15/hour law, shows that the latter is true, and in fact, the wage requirement has hurt people who need the help by a ratio of 3 to 1.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...helps-workers/
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-26-2017, 12:51 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

I don't know about that. This survey found the same as most of the rest of them... employment didn't drop when the minimum wage rose. And that's the central argument of those who fight the minimum wage laws.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-26-2017, 01:22 PM
Mikeham Mikeham is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 150
Default

Workers should be paid a living wage. If a business owner can't pay a full-time worker enough to scrape by on, maybe the business model should be reconsidered. Workers shouldn't be subsidizing the owner's business.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-26-2017, 01:27 PM
JamesB JamesB is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeham View Post
Workers should be paid a living wage. If a business owner can't pay a full-time worker enough to scrape by on, maybe the business model should be reconsidered. Workers shouldn't be subsidizing the owner's business.
Who decides what a living wage is? Also why is $15/hr considered to be so? And finally, does the cost of living not change substantially across the country or even a county?
This whole living wage nonsense is crazy. Why is the employer responsible for anything other than providing the opportunity to work? The worker surely has the option to find work elsewhere or move to where this employment exists.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-26-2017, 01:51 PM
Mikeham Mikeham is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
Who decides what a living wage is? Also why is $15/hr considered to be so? And finally, does the cost of living not change substantially across the country or even a county?
This whole living wage nonsense is crazy. Why is the employer responsible for anything other than providing the opportunity to work? The worker surely has the option to find work elsewhere or move to where this employment exists.
Government decides what a living wage is, as they've done. You want them to set minimum wage in different counties? Sounds like a terrible idea. Province-wide is a reasonable compromise.

I guess you've never had to pay rent or raise kids on minimum wage? Nobody is getting rich on $15/hr.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-26-2017, 01:54 PM
coastalhunter coastalhunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Peace River, BC
Posts: 630
Default

If minimum wage goes up, why doesn't everyone's? I read a report a couple years ago that said if we truly had wages reflecting inflation, tradespeople would be making 100$/hr straight time.

Another slap in the face to those who work hard to better themselves.

Minimum wage jobs are stepping stones, not the end of the line.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-26-2017, 01:55 PM
dmcbride dmcbride is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bazeau County East side
Posts: 4,165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeham View Post
Government decides what a living wage is, as they've done. You want them to set minimum wage in different counties? Sounds like a terrible idea. Province-wide is a reasonable compromise.

I guess you've never had to pay rent or raise kids on minimum wage? Nobody is getting rich on $15/hr.
I have lived on minimum wage, then I got smart, moved and got a different job.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:15 PM
Mikeham Mikeham is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coastalhunter View Post
If minimum wage goes up, why doesn't everyone's? I read a report a couple years ago that said if we truly had wages reflecting inflation, tradespeople would be making 100$/hr straight time.

Another slap in the face to those who work hard to better themselves.

Minimum wage jobs are stepping stones, not the end of the line.
Yup, and now the first step is enough to live on. What's the problem? You want government to regulate all wages now, forcing business owners to increase everyone? That doesn't make sense.

Why is it a slap in the face to anyone? Nothing's been taken away from you. Entry level workers just make more money. You could have one of those juicy $15/hr jobs if you wanted.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:27 PM
pope pope is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 335
Default

Perhaps you should read it again. Result was less hours, less hiring, and an average net loss of $125 a month. It appears there was no benefit to anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
I don't know about that. This survey found the same as most of the rest of them... employment didn't drop when the minimum wage rose. And that's the central argument of those who fight the minimum wage laws.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:39 PM
EZM's Avatar
EZM EZM is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,851
Default

c
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:41 PM
EZM's Avatar
EZM EZM is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,851
Default

Wow $100 / hr for tradespeople - imagine how much more metal mulisha stuff one could deck out onto his/her jacked up dodge !!!!!

Hey that means the managers will make $150 to $ 200 /hr !!!!!!

Easy ......... just teasing ..........
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:54 PM
couleefolk couleefolk is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 869
Default

Minimum wage across the province isn't accurate. If my bottom line is affected by having to pay more in wages, you can bet the farm I am going to increase what I charge, which means that the actual bump in the minimum wage is a washout. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Wow! minimum wage just went up, but hey, why did other things go up in price?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:59 PM
Scott N's Avatar
Scott N Scott N is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,506
Default

Most minimum wage jobs are part time, meant for students and retired people. If a person is trying to make a living on minimum wage jobs, then they need to find a different job and / or further their education.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:33 PM
JamesB JamesB is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeham View Post
Government decides what a living wage is, as they've done. You want them to set minimum wage in different counties? Sounds like a terrible idea. Province-wide is a reasonable compromise.

I guess you've never had to pay rent or raise kids on minimum wage? Nobody is getting rich on $15/hr.
Sorry, but government does what? Any government approving a $15/hr minimum wage as a provincial living wage has just demonstrated that they have no idea what they are talking about.
Here is a quick example, you tell me that $x is a living wage in Ontario. If I live in Toronto it will buy me about 1/2 of what it would buy me in say Kingston. So how is that fair? Obviously if $x is a living wage in Toronto it is twice what would be required in Kingston.
Also, don't personal circumstances have something to do with it? I keep hearing that nobody can raise a family on minimum wage, so should we pay parents more?
How about we just let the market decide what jobs are worth, and people that need more can get a better job?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:39 PM
jcurl jcurl is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 62
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott N View Post
Most minimum wage jobs are part time, meant for students and retired people. If a person is trying to make a living on minimum wage jobs, then they need to find a different job and / or further their education.
How are they willing to further their education if they are living paycheque to paycheque and working 2 or 3 part time jobs in order to survive? Not everyone is born with a silverspoon ya know.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:43 PM
Scott N's Avatar
Scott N Scott N is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurl View Post
How are they willing to further their education if they are living paycheque to paycheque and working 2 or 3 part time jobs in order to survive? Not everyone is born with a silverspoon ya know.
No one needs to be born with a silverspoon in their mouth to better themselves. People aren't expected to try and live off of minimum wage jobs.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:46 PM
jcurl jcurl is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 62
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott N View Post
No one needs to be born with a silverspoon in their mouth to better themselves. People aren't expected to try and live off of minimum wage jobs.
What if they have no choice and no qualifications to get a better job that pays more than minimum wage? Do we just say "screw them"?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:57 PM
st99 st99 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurl View Post
How are they willing to further their education if they are living paycheque to paycheque and working 2 or 3 part time jobs in order to survive? Not everyone is born with a silverspoon ya know.
Growing up, my family was poor. I paid 100% for my education while working part time.

My wife grew up in a poor family from a 3rd world country, moved to canada with only a suitcase and 100$. She worked a night shift full time and while going to school during the day. A few yrs later she had a degree, quit her 12$/hr job for one over 30.

There's always a way for those willing to work hard, you might not make it to the top, but you definitely can improve your condition.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-26-2017, 04:00 PM
Scott N's Avatar
Scott N Scott N is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurl View Post
What if they have no choice and no qualifications to get a better job that pays more than minimum wage? Do we just say "screw them"?
That's not what I've been trying to say. Both employers and employees know that it's impossible to make a living on minimum wage jobs. Pretending that you can make a living with a few dollars more / hour in your pocket is not realistic.

What's going to happen to these part time and minimum wage jobs when the "mom & pop" stores decide they can't afford to stay open? No one is saying "screw them", or at least I'm not. Besides, I don't think there are that many "minimum wage" jobs out there. Ever try to employ someone? Quality people will get reasonable pay, otherwise they will leave for greener pastures.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-26-2017, 04:01 PM
HyperMOA HyperMOA is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Edmonton (shudder)
Posts: 4,583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurl View Post
What if they have no choice and no qualifications to get a better job that pays more than minimum wage? Do we just say "screw them"?
Ambition and work ethics will take you farther than choice and qualifications. Anywhere I have worked the minimum wage labourer had the ability to move into any position they want if they worked hard and showed initiative.

So in short, yes screw the guy with no choice, qualifications, ambition, or work ethic.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-26-2017, 04:05 PM
DevilsAdvocate DevilsAdvocate is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeham View Post
Workers should be paid a living wage. If a business owner can't pay a full-time worker enough to scrape by on, maybe the business model should be reconsidered. Workers shouldn't be subsidizing the owner's business.
Your right (partially)....and then close the business and lay everyone working for them off........

So in essence, you agree that increases in min wage create reductions in employment opportunities and/or hours, and while some may be better off, many are no better off and may actually be worse off.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-26-2017, 04:24 PM
rugatika rugatika is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 17,790
Default

$15 an hour is a slap in the face. Anyone calling for $15 an hour should be ashamed of themselves. How can you raise a family of 5 and have a house and food, or even enjoy a week in Disneyland on $15 an hour.

The government should just set minimum wage at $100 an hour. Then everyone would be happy. If you can't run a business paying your employees $200,000 a year or so for flipping burgers you should probably think about running your business in another country, or replace your employees with robots or charge highly inflated amounts of money for your product to pay for your empoyees wages. It's so simple!

This is what happens when greedy people that can barely run a calculator are allowed to vote.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:11 PM
SageValleyOutdoors's Avatar
SageValleyOutdoors SageValleyOutdoors is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 463
Default

I'm actually shocked that anyone on here would think raising minimum wage to a $15/hr "living wage" is a good idea.
I run a business - a small plumbing contracting company. I start new, green (yet hard working) people at $18/hr. it's tough work in the mud/snow/rain doing terrible stuff that nobody wants to do. BUT once someone proves themselves to be hard working and eager to learn, I set them up with an apprenticeship, and they are able to continue their career, go to school and do better for themselves. One guy who currently works for me started as a green hand 6 years ago. At the time I started him he made around $14/hr. now he's on piecework and hourly makes anywhere from $65-$90 an hour - completely depending on how much he wants to work and get done. He works his butt off and earns every dollar. Now - imagine you're working at a gas station or flipping burgers for $15/hr. easy, no REAL responsibility, no difficult manual labour in crappy conditons. There's almost NO reason for you to want to do better for yourself and push yourself through a crappy apprenticeship - you're stuck. Unless the business owners (such as myself) increase the wages respective to the increased minimum wage. I don't know about other places, but I absolutely cannot afford to raise the starting wage of my guys by the same percentages as the government is forcing minimum wage increases - I'd have to start new, green hands at $20/hr or more.

Additionally, I myself started my apprenticeship at $11/hr. that was 15 years ago. I was a single father raising two sons (both under 4yrs old) with no support from their deadbeat mother. I pushed myself, worked hard, put myself through SAIT and wound up doing better for myself.

Minimum wage, and the types of occupations that earn minimum wage aren't a career. It's a step towards self improvement for those that are willing to go get it. For the rest of the lazy types, for those who think the hard working business owners should subsidize the unwilling - I would fully say "screw them"
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:34 PM
Nova Nova is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SK
Posts: 830
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
Also, don't personal circumstances have something to do with it? I keep hearing that nobody can raise a family on minimum wage, so should we pay parents more?
How about we just let the market decide what jobs are worth, and people that need more can get a better job?
I see the same thing a lot, and any time the "living wage" or "affordable rent" type topics come up locally it is always the people who pop out 3 to 5 kids before they are 25 years old and have even attempted to pursue a career. Then it is whining that the government doesn't do enough for them to "raise their family", while the same day posting wanted ads on Facebook looking for the newest iPad.

How can I raise a family on minimum wage?

If you know you can only swim 5 laps in a pool before becoming exhausted, would you try swimming across a mile wide lake with no help around?

If you have enough gas in your car to go 200km, would you try driving 400km in a rural area, at night, in January?

Both seem like pretty stupid questions to answer yes to. And yet neither are much different than having children when you know you can't afford them. And people just keep on doing it. I find it pretty baffling.

Last edited by Nova; 06-26-2017 at 05:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-26-2017, 06:05 PM
Coyotebutcher Coyotebutcher is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 288
Default

I feel that, if the extent of your value to society is to pour coffee and hand out sandwiches, and you don't feel the need to improve yourself, then $12.50 is very acceptable. If you don't speak the language of the country you just imagrated to, and don't want to sweat all day labouring, then $12.50 is an acceptable wage. If your a student and need alextra money to subsidize your living expenses above and beyond your student loan, then living off $12.50/hr will build character. If your a single parent with no education or skills, then maybe you should have made better life choices?? (Pro choice) sorry to be blunt, but if your only making minimum wage, with little family support, then you should definitely use birth control.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-26-2017, 06:55 PM
guywiththemule guywiththemule is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugatika View Post
$15 an hour is a slap in the face. Anyone calling for $15 an hour should be ashamed of themselves. How can you raise a family of 5 and have a house and food, or even enjoy a week in Disneyland on $15 an hour.

The government should just set minimum wage at $100 an hour. Then everyone would be happy. If you can't run a business paying your employees $200,000 a year or so for flipping burgers you should probably think about running your business in another country, or replace your employees with robots or charge highly inflated amounts of money for your product to pay for your empoyees wages. It's so simple!

This is what happens when greedy people that can barely run a calculator are allowed to vote.
Excellent !! ^^^^^
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:28 PM
bergman bergman is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 466
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurl View Post
What if they have no choice and no qualifications to get a better job that pays more than minimum wage? Do we just say "screw them"?
There are loads of after-hours colleges and community training centres that address this. You can go get training in a whole bunch of different areas; legal aides, accounting, computer literacy and on and on. Seems like a reasonable compromise for people who want to better themselves. They have funding specifically for people who cannot afford it otherwise.

Sometimes I think jcurl is really just T. Mulcair hiding behind a forum screen name, blowing off steam. (Just kiddin jcurl, but you do like to stir things up. Nothin' wrong with having an opinion, just don't force me to have yours )
__________________
pop pop POP
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:31 PM
coastalhunter coastalhunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Peace River, BC
Posts: 630
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeham View Post
Yup, and now the first step is enough to live on. What's the problem? You want government to regulate all wages now, forcing business owners to increase everyone? That doesn't make sense.

Why is it a slap in the face to anyone? Nothing's been taken away from you. Entry level workers just make more money. You could have one of those juicy $15/hr jobs if you wanted.
Taxes. For the minimum income crap. Don't get me started.

The world is a sink or swim place, contrary to what Justine says.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:34 PM
Wes_G Wes_G is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
Who decides what a living wage is? Also why is $15/hr considered to be so? And finally, does the cost of living not change substantially across the country or even a county?
This whole living wage nonsense is crazy. Why is the employer responsible for anything other than providing the opportunity to work? The worker surely has the option to find work elsewhere or move to where this employment exists.
The worker also has the option in which ways they spend there money with such things as drinking, smoking and drug use, there possession of things such as cell phones and $100/month cable bills. They also have the option to further there education to possibly change there situation for the better. If you don't make enough there are things you can do about it. However, it's easier to just wait for the typical gov't handouts to roll in.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-26-2017, 08:46 PM
huntsfurfish huntsfurfish is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 7,350
Default

Easy to pick out business owners and managers. Got to have their slave labour.

To bad so sad attitude to low income earners? The high and mighty.

Those attitudes will bring you more years of NDP. See if you like that more than higher minimum wages.
__________________
.
eat a snickers


made in Alberta__ born n raised.


FS-Tinfool hats by the roll.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.