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10-04-2016, 01:01 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 23
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Vacant Trapline
I see some discussion on here which rules apply for trapline transfers.
Interestingly enough a friend of mine had applied for the line posted in the AEP office that was declared vacant following the trappers death which was in the Rocky Mountain House area.
He just received a letter from the biologist stating no decision had been made on which applicant had been approved to take over the line, but the biologist would be in contact with all the applicants once the decision had been made.
The letter also said for applicant to get in contact with the deceased's family to inquire on the assets that are on the line.
Viewing the posted guidelines that began in 1992 I would say this doesn't really follow that document.
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10-04-2016, 11:09 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: northern AB
Posts: 2,241
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If we have to deal with biologists....suck it up and get used to it.
Ask any one of them if they hunt, fish or trap.
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10-05-2016, 11:27 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,271
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So far so good, it appears they are following the F & W 1850-1 1992 document on trap line transfers. An agreement for existing assets cabins & sheds needs to be negotiated with previous Senior or his estate prior to final transfer by biologist.
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10-07-2016, 04:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27
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Off the rails...
No... I would say the process is off the rails. I too applied for this line and called the guy after getting my letter in the mail.
The price of the "physical assets" is deemed to be $90,000... I know the line well and that is a joke.
The guy also stated that whoever he recommends to the government will be guaranteed the line. Basically, whoever is willing to pay the most, gets it. He told me he got together with some other guys, which included Alberta Trappers Association President, Anne Coles, to challenge the government and that was the outcome.
I am hopeful that someday we see some reform to trapline management in Alberta. Traplines should be for serious trappers who trap not guaranteed long-term recreational leases for the rich!
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10-07-2016, 05:49 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
No... I would say the process is off the rails. I too applied for this line and called the guy after getting my letter in the mail.
The price of the "physical assets" is deemed to be $90,000... I know the line well and that is a joke.
The guy also stated that whoever he recommends to the government will be guaranteed the line. Basically, whoever is willing to pay the most, gets it. He told me he got together with some other guys, which included Alberta Trappers Association President, Anne Coles, to challenge the government and that was the outcome.
I am hopeful that someday we see some reform to trapline management in Alberta. Traplines should be for serious trappers who trap not guaranteed long-term recreational leases for the rich!
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So what is included with the line ?
Can you also point out which lines you know of that are currently owned as recreational leases owned by the rich ? I keep looking for them but as yet have been unable to find one.
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10-07-2016, 06:10 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: The elbow of Alberta
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what is included with the line ?
Can you also point out which lines you know of that are currently owned as recreational leases owned by the rich ? I keep looking for them but as yet have been unable to find one.
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There's a line on the South side of the kakwa that was up for sale for a few years back for $300000.00. The cabin was flown in by helicopter and built by a contractor.
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10-07-2016, 06:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 584
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a trapper should be able to sell his line for what ever price he wants. but the government should have legislation to make all rfma holders trap .
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10-07-2016, 07:43 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27
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Easy Math
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what is included with the line ?
Can you also point out which lines you know of that are currently owned as recreational leases owned by the rich ? I keep looking for them but as yet have been unable to find one.
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I am a serious trapper and can barely pay my basic expenses with fur revenue. $100,000 to $300,000 for a trap line? What other explanation do you have? Investment speculation? Commodity speculation? Tax write off? You tell me! All I know is that you are not paying the bills by trapping.
BTW I know of MANY traplines that were purchased for far more than the value of the physical assets (against the rules), developments made which exceed the necessities for trapping (against the rules), used for activities beyond trapping such as outfitting and hunting (against the rules), and not used for serious trapping (I am not actually sure if that is against the rules or not but it certainly stings when you know how hard it is to get access to trap a RFMA).
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10-07-2016, 08:20 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So what is included with the line ?
Can you also point out which lines you know of that are currently owned as recreational leases owned by the rich ? I keep looking for them but as yet have been unable to find one.
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You certainly are not looking very hard. I'm sure REAL trappers find you entertaining because it sounds like you fit the picture.
If you're playing semantics with the phrase "recreational lease" then it's even worse. Hopefully the new government will get some of this nonsense eliminated eventually.
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10-07-2016, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing
There's a line on the South side of the kakwa that was up for sale for a few years back for $300000.00. The cabin was flown in by helicopter and built by a contractor.
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It's still for sale and he wants $150K or so. I have a picture of him with 12 wolves he killed one trip.
Despite having funds to build the cabin he wanted there he obviously trapped it. Don't think he paid somebody to haul all those wolves in and pose for a picture in front of his cabin.
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10-07-2016, 08:40 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
I am a serious trapper and can barely pay my basic expenses with fur revenue. $100,000 to $300,000 for a trap line? What other explanation do you have? Investment speculation? Commodity speculation? Tax write off? You tell me! All I know is that you are not paying the bills by trapping.
BTW I know of MANY traplines that were purchased for far more than the value of the physical assets (against the rules), developments made which exceed the necessities for trapping (against the rules), used for activities beyond trapping such as outfitting and hunting (against the rules), and not used for serious trapping (I am not actually sure if that is against the rules or not but it certainly stings when you know how hard it is to get access to trap a RFMA).
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So post up some names and locations of all these people who own these lines ! I'm sure F&W would love to know who they are. Heck I'll settle for half a dozen and I'll call them in too. Don't need to know all of them, let's just chip away at the issue with the first 5 or 6.
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10-07-2016, 08:45 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
It's still for sale and he wants $150K or so. I have a picture of him with 12 wolves he killed one trip.
Despite having funds to build the cabin he wanted there he obviously trapped it. Don't think he paid somebody to haul all those wolves in and pose for a picture in front of his cabin.
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This is the perfect example of the "recreational trapline". Thanks.
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10-07-2016, 08:47 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
You certainly are not looking very hard. I'm sure REAL trappers find you entertaining because it sounds like you fit the picture.
If you're playing semantics with the phrase "recreational lease" then it's even worse. Hopefully the new government will get some of this nonsense eliminated eventually.
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Why do I fit the picture ? I spend 40-50 days a year out on my line. I take wolves, Lynx, marten, Fisher and weasel every year. Not many beaver out there but I skim the top off them.
Am I not a real trapper because I own other businesses ? Is Gordy Klassen not a real trapper ? Or Brian Bildson ? Heck I even know a retired doctor who's a trapper, does he not fit the bill for you. My Dads the Mayor of the town he lives in, together with his partners they trap 5 different lines each winter. Does he make the cut ?
Please regale us further with your image of a real trapper
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10-07-2016, 08:53 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
This is the perfect example of the "recreational trapline". Thanks.
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A recreational Trapline that he effectively harvests the available fur off every year ? Because he could afford to build the cabin he wanted ?
Jealousy is a terrible disease Paskell. There is plenty of opportunity out there for those that want it, unfortunately it's easier to be lazy and complain about all the people that actually worked hard for what they wanted.
like many of the poor me's before you, nothing will change
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10-07-2016, 08:55 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: The elbow of Alberta
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
So post up some names and locations of all these people who own these lines ! I'm sure F&W would love to know who they are. Heck I'll settle for half a dozen and I'll call them in too. Don't need to know all of them, let's just chip away at the issue with the first 5 or 6.
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The past ATA President wrote about the abuses in the September issue of AO magazine.
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10-07-2016, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing
The past ATA President wrote about the abuses in the September issue of AO magazine.
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Oh I hear it all the time Dark Wing. I'd just like somebody to point out some names of all these people abusing the system. Or what F&W did when they reported it ?
Everybody hears about all the abuse, but where is it actually happening ?
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10-07-2016, 09:10 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: The elbow of Alberta
Posts: 1,363
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...............
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10-07-2016, 09:12 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
This is the perfect example of the "recreational trapline". Thanks.
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How long does it take a REAL trapper to trap 12 wolves?
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10-07-2016, 09:32 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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It's recreational trapping pure and simple, not a business as is being preached by the worst offenders and abusers.Prices do not reflect infrastructure but are driven by those who have the most money to spend on their hobby. This is wrong and cuts out many trappers who have an equal right to a crown resource just as hunters do. Try to spin it all you want, you are fooling no one. It is what it is!
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10-07-2016, 09:38 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,540
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I'm not going to post the name but I know a trapper that has 3 cabins on his line. Every November there are anywhere from 7 to 15 people in those cabins on weekends doing nothing but hunting. One of those cabins have fallen into disrepair and can't be used now. So he is building another cabin about 3 miles from the newest cabin. Why there, its because its at the end of a lease road behind a locked gate which he has a key for. He can drive right to the new cabin and not have to worry about unloading a quad and going across the muskeg to the main cabin. Is the line trapped, yes he has a junior partner who does all the trapping. For the owner of this line its for recreation, Hunting and comfort. Let someone else do the work of trapping it. This is what a lot of people are so upset about and why they call the line a recreational line.
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I hunt what I eat, I eat what I hunt
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10-07-2016, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
It's recreational trapping pure and simple, not a business as is being preached by the worst offenders and abusers.Prices do not reflect infrastructure but are driven by those who have the most money to spend on their hobby. This is wrong and cuts out many trappers who have an equal right to a crown resource just as hunters do. Try to spin it all you want, you are fooling no one. It is what it is!
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Ahhhhh. I recognize that rhetoric now. Welcome back and goodbye
Soon to be gone again soon I'm sure.
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10-07-2016, 09:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsundance
I'm not going to post the name but I know a trapper that has 3 cabins on his line. Every November there are anywhere from 7 to 15 people in those cabins on weekends doing nothing but hunting. One of those cabins have fallen into disrepair and can't be used now. So he is building another cabin about 3 miles from the newest cabin. Why there, its because its at the end of a lease road behind a locked gate which he has a key for. He can drive right to the new cabin and not have to worry about unloading a quad and going across the muskeg to the main cabin. Is the line trapped, yes he has a junior partner who does all the trapping. For the owner of this line its for recreation, Hunting and comfort. Let someone else do the work of trapping it. This is what a lot of people are so upset about and why they call the line a recreational line.
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What did F&W and the local biologist say when you reported these offences to them ? Or did you just call the RAPP line ? Did they get back to you with the outcome of the case ?
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10-07-2016, 09:45 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
No... I would say the process is off the rails. I too applied for this line and called the guy after getting my letter in the mail.
The price of the "physical assets" is deemed to be $90,000... I know the line well and that is a joke.
The guy also stated that whoever he recommends to the government will be guaranteed the line. Basically, whoever is willing to pay the most, gets it. He told me he got together with some other guys, which included Alberta Trappers Association President, Anne Coles, to challenge the government and that was the outcome.
I am hopeful that someday we see some reform to trapline management in Alberta. Traplines should be for serious trappers who trap not guaranteed long-term recreational leases for the rich!
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This does not sound like the new agreement to me. It sounds like the 1992 agreement.
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10-07-2016, 09:50 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,540
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From what F&W state they have talked to him several times, but only about the number of keys he has handed out to his brothers and nephews etc. Last time we saw F&W out that way was probably 6 years ago. No Idea what the biologist says.
__________________
I hunt what I eat, I eat what I hunt
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10-07-2016, 10:37 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
It's recreational trapping pure and simple, not a business as is being preached by the worst offenders and abusers.Prices do not reflect infrastructure but are driven by those who have the most money to spend on their hobby. This is wrong and cuts out many trappers who have an equal right to a crown resource just as hunters do. Try to spin it all you want, you are fooling no one. It is what it is!
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I can appreciate your argument paskell. I know of several traplines that have beautiful cabines that make for a great trapping home base but are also wonderful cabins for hunting. If someone is actively trapping so be it. I will be the first to say that I am jealous for the awesome cabin that the trapper has to go back to. If they are hunting only......well that is another story.
I Agree with your assessment of an inflated "asset value" a selling trap line. perhaps replacement cost would be an appropriate figure.???. But you can't takeaway the "trapper" that decides to build a high priced cabin to escape/trap on the weekends.
There are many more vastly unused traplines as we are well aware.
Ps. I'm trapping some crown land for a $5 fee per year.
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10-08-2016, 09:16 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsundance
I'm not going to post the name but I know a trapper that has 3 cabins on his line. Every November there are anywhere from 7 to 15 people in those cabins on weekends doing nothing but hunting. One of those cabins have fallen into disrepair and can't be used now. So he is building another cabin about 3 miles from the newest cabin. Why there, its because its at the end of a lease road behind a locked gate which he has a key for. He can drive right to the new cabin and not have to worry about unloading a quad and going across the muskeg to the main cabin. Is the line trapped, yes he has a junior partner who does all the trapping. For the owner of this line its for recreation, Hunting and comfort. Let someone else do the work of trapping it. This is what a lot of people are so upset about and why they call the line a recreational line.
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This IS what is happening in a great many cases to greater or lessor degrees. One even involves helicopter transportation and another in a land use zone ferries in hunters because they can't use their own ATV's. It's only natural as trapping turns more and more towards recreation the public is going to demand change.
A Mayor and buddies controlling five traplines? Sound quite equitable to me!
The spin continues but like the crown land grazing leases the abuses are just to great to remain favoring a few at the expense of many.
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10-08-2016, 10:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
A Mayor and buddies controlling five traplines? Sound quite equitable to me!
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Our families have held those trap lines for close to 50 years now. From when my grandfather first starting trapping there in the early 70's.
yes they make money every year, and they own those trap lines, not control them
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10-08-2016, 11:15 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Our families have held those trap lines for close to 50 years now. From when my grandfather first starting trapping there in the early 70's.
yes they make money every year, and they own those trap lines, not control them
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They have the right to take fur from the area, nothing more. I registered with the hunting forum to talk about the loss of access to public land. Your sense of entitlement is the same as many grazing lessee's and therein lies the problem. All's fair that benefits you!
I trapped for many years when you could make money and the income was needed. I know how much money can be made today and I do hope your family isn't depending on trapping for their livelihood, but somehow I doubt it. Much more likely a nice fall and winter retreat for some R&R. Enjoy.
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10-08-2016, 11:37 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paskell
They have the right to take fur from the area, nothing more. I registered with the hunting forum to talk about the loss of access to public land. Your sense of entitlement is the same as many grazing lessee's and therein lies the problem. All's fair that benefits you!
I trapped for many years when you could make money and the income was needed. I know how much money can be made today and I do hope your family isn't depending on trapping for their livelihood, but somehow I doubt it. Much more likely a nice fall and winter retreat for some R&R. Enjoy.
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Word it however you want. To me anything that can be bought and sold is owned.
Yes they sure are nice fall and winter retreats, lots of work but a glorious break from having to deal with people like you from the cities. Glorious indeed 😊
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10-08-2016, 03:23 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
Word it however you want. To me anything that can be bought and sold is owned.
Yes they sure are nice fall and winter retreats, lots of work but a glorious break from having to deal with people like you from the cities. Glorious indeed 😊
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I thought you would know you can't sell the trapline? Anyway you're going to have to play with yourself from here on, enjoy.
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