Moose populations in trouble

[dgl1948]

Recently all of the conservation groups were called together in Manitoba to discuss the declining moose population. First Nation leaders were asked to attend but they refused because they were not being payed.

[boonie]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you have a link to that info? I'm interested to see a few other zones as well.

I'm not sure how to post links but the draw summary report for 2016 is out on "My Wild Alberta" under the hunting tab. They have been giving out that many tags for the past 4-5 years in 510.

[purgatory.sv]

http://mywildalberta.com/hunting/Hun...t/Default.aspx



http://mywildalberta.com/hunting/Hun...de33-2016B.pdf

[Don_Parsons]

Interesting read.

Other thoughts that come to mind.

There are a select few farmers in our area that are not keen on having Moose around as they are hard on fences, these few would like to see them gone. Moose and domestic live stock seem to not work together that well, especially if fences are knocked down.

Just saying is all.

Management of wild life is a tricky balance on Crown and farm lands in whole.

Humans play a role, along with other factors mentioned above.

One can search the Web pages for "First Nations Right to Hunt" as it covers endless sites of each province and territory along with the Federal system that has been in place for years.

It is on going as we chat as many cases are active in "litigation" today on account of the Meach Lake Accord.

These court findings "could" go on for hundreds of years as each word and definition needs to by explained in all angles.

This of course cost us each day as its multi millions of dollars each year working out the hand over of "some" powers too the provinces,,, FN harvest laws will "most" likely not change very much since they give up so much lands for this right.

This would be where some of our funds go to determine these law abiding contracts.

These are tricky areas for all provinces to deal with, and a wrong move "could" up set the balance of Justice costing us even more funds,,, "could" that is.

Tread lightly since the Moose idea is a mile long and a inch deep along the playing field, but there are sections a mile deep and a inch wide that are specific too each category,,, it is these areas that are tricky too deal with.

Don

PS: Sorry for bad spelling, and the above should be considered a view or thought from with in only. IMO only.

No disrespect to none of my many brothers and sisters as whole.

[Talking moose]

Tons of moose in the farmland in the Camrose area and south and north and east. No wolves or bears either.

[D-Dub]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Tons of moose in the farmland in the Camrose area and south and north and east. No wolves or bears either.

Or FN hunters.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by D-Dub

Or FN hunters.

Or crown land.

[elkdump]

When all the moose are gone from hunting them indiscreetly ,any time if day, every day of the year,

Then the people with that mindset can eat bologna indiscreetly , any time of day, every day of the year,

The only reason the moose are endangered is they have the IQ of a Do Do Bird and are a bigger easier target for those with an appetite for DoDo,,,

the moose population are headed for extinction , except possibly on private/protected lands and the protectors of these lands will have be ruthless in protecting access to anyone .

[Kurt505]

Aside from human intervention, nature has always had a way of keeping the balance, the balance of predator and prey work hand in hand.

If global warming was responsible for this imbalance it would affect the prairie zones the same as the boreal zones. If the natural predators are responsible for this, with the lack of food comes lower predator numbers. Mother Natures balance.

That being said, I don't think predation by man or animal is the only cause for the decline in moose numbers, I think there is some kind of desease out there that is also killing our moose, they are literally dropping dead. This spring our neighbor watched a young, otherwise healthy looking bull drop dead at his dugout. It wasn't tics, the hide was full and black. Something killed it besides natural predators, tics or man.

While I don't think FN harvesting is the reason for the decline in numbers, I do believe it's not helping one bit and by not limiting the harvest, like what has been implemented by licensed hunters, it shows extreme irresponsiblity and a lack of respect for both fellow Canadians and our moose. Why do they have to be told this, and why don't they step forward without being asked? The elders should know better imo.

[R3illy]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

If the author's initials are VC he is a self absorbed ego maniac.......on one hand he promotes all hands on deck and must have everyone at the table and just as quickly blames Indians for the decline. As he states he had 40 years of management experience in Manitoba and what did he do, exactly what he's done in the article, play the blame game.

Lastly all one has to do is type in "Declining Moose populations into Google" to see this is happening at a rapid pace right across North America and biologists are struggling to identify the problem. Even where there are no Indians.....the biggest factor being pointed out being global warming but that will go over like a lead balloon on this site.....lol

Good to see not everyone automatically jumps on the hate train. The guy who wrote the article certainly jumps to the blame game.

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

I would ask if cougars, and Grizzly Bears have any part into Moose populations declining, "yes there are wolf tracks at many downed Moose killings, and I once in a while spot Grizzly and cat tracks too.

Forestry practises and ticks" could" have effects too, but yes too your idea as well.

I'm not saying any one factor as I'm not up to speed, nor is it my place to do so. At judging this or that...

So what other factors beside humans play a role in Moose decline if I may ask.

One would think that a combination of factors have a role too play.

Thanks again too all with different ways to get a big picture of the happenings

Don

What a combination of factors? You don't say..

Originally Posted by Sporty

This story is opinion based without any substantial facts or data to support it. What about the effects of climate change, development, logging activity, etc that also contribute to the decline? I guess it's easier to just blame FN's without looking at any other contributing factors...



https://www.250news.com/2012/10/24/n...e-says-expert/

Again good to see someone who understands there are numerous issues and doesn't automatically play the blame game.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention is the vast number of new hunters starting year after year... the vast number of draws and hunters in general will lead to more poaching.. of which we see thread after thread on this.

Being treaty myself i would support an overall management strategy that included everyone but if you come to the table saying the problem is solely on sustenance hunting then things will go no where.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by R3illy

Good to see not everyone automatically jumps on the hate train. The guy who wrote the article certainly jumps to the blame game.



What a combination of factors? You don't say..



Again good to see someone who understands there are numerous issues and doesn't automatically play the blame game.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention is the vast number of new hunters starting year after year... the vast number of draws and hunters in general will lead to more poaching.. of which we see thread after thread on this.

Being treaty myself i would support an overall management strategy that included everyone but if you come to the table saying the problem is solely on sustenance hunting then things will go no where.

There are regulations in place for the "vast" number of new LICENSED hunters which regulates the numbers of tags being issued for harvest, the only uncontrolled factor is the UNLICENSEND hunters. Of the two groups, only one is being held responsible for proper management, here is where the problem lies. If both parties know there has been a decline in the numbers, only regulating one group won't fix the problem.


Serious question; Being treaty yourself, what more do you want the regulated licensed hunters to do before you step up and take actions to help the situation? Do you want all licensed hunters to totally give up their privlidge of moose hunting so the FN population can continue to harvest unlimited amounts of moose?

Keep in mind, I'm not putting the blame of low moose numbers on any one factor, merely looking for a solution.

Do you have to be told by a separate outside group that if we keep killing moose limitlessly that there will be none left?

[catnthehat]

R3billy likely sees things in perspective but human kind being what we are , the general population as a rule does not practise restraint - no matter the race, creed or Color
Cat

[R3illy]

We are on the same page in regards to management but this articles writer states hes been looking at moose numbers for 50 years and puts the blame on one thing. Theres a lot missing from the article but as someone else pointed out its not backed by facts or stats.

Its not meant to be well balanced.. its just playing the blame game.

You say you dont hold one thing accountable for declining numbers yet you point a lot of blame at me or first nationsn in general.

Thats part of the problem... there are a broad range of issues, one of which is abuse from first nations. Just look at the first years hunters post in this thread blaming the worlds problems at first nations. Guys been hunting less then a year and the goal is to petition and create a bunch of noise.

Something will eventually need to be done.. as i said im supportive of a different management solution but if the basis of this starts with placing the blame on first nations then it will go no where. Of which this is most of the thread here which is why i wanted to say thanks to those who dont automatically judge or ignore all the other reasons for lower numbers as well.

[woodsman205]

The moose in many area of Manitoba are disappearing in a hurry and it ain't wood ticks, yet the First Nations People are still hunting them big time. So much for Stewards of the land!

Our government should give FNP free beef and put them on draws, just like everyone else. From what I saw first hand in 541 two weeks ago, expect to start seeing bans in Alberta, very soon.

There is a reason why us white folks think the way we do, just saying!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...line-1.3278002

[claystone]

130,000 licensed hunters in 2015 in alberta , 220,000 total FN population in alberta, maybe 1000 at most even hunt. so there is 1,000 vs 130,000. To say that FN are the problem but non FN aren't. Is just close minded. I as a treaty fully agree there could be better practices by FN hunters but it's not the only problem and focusing on this and nothing else is just as iv'e said close minded.

[catnthehat]

To be fair however and a completely unbiased here., not all the the licensed hunters in the Province get drawn or even hunt moose.
Ask many of those hunters and they will most likely complain about outfitter allocations as well, so it is not a "one thing solution" for sure.
Cat

[R3illy]

on a positive note every second post on facebook over the last week are pictures of live moose.

[Papershredder]

The area I work in and have been driving thru to get to my plant for almost 15 years now in 353/352 used to be a game corridor. Nobody could hunt within 365 m of the road. I saw multiple moose 4-5 days out of an 8 day set. They lifted the corridor and now the road gets patrolled like the US/Mexican border. Trucks/quads/side by sides; going both directions and waving as they pass by. I rarely see a moose/deer or anything else on my way to or from work anymore. But the first couple of years there was moose gut piles all over the place; and all year round too. Just mark more roads as game corridors and force hunters to actually learn how to hunt again; including the FN people. That 365 m buffer totally changes the odds in the favor of the animals.

[Kurt505]

R3illy,

I'm not blaming the decline on the reduction in numbers, as a matter of fact I clearly stated I believe there is other factors at play, however I did state that I do believe FN should should have restricted harvesting regulations in place to help ensure a healthy population for our future hunters. I don't think all FN abuse their harvest rights, but I do know not all could be bothered with restrictions. A good friend of mine is looking for 2 cows right now because they taste better. It's his right, right or wrong he's going to do it.


All I'm saying is that licensed hunters have either voluntarily or involuntarily had restrictions placed on them for a drastically reduced number of moose they can harvest. If left up to a volentary restriction I doubt the licensed hunters would have given up nearly as many tags, same I'm sure is true for FN hunters. I'm afraid that if a manditory restriction isn't put in place, it won't happen voluntarily, and despite the effort put forth by the licensed hunters, moose numbers will continue with the same rate of decline.

[lmtada]

There are 4 of us in group draw. Been doing this for 20 years. Drawn every other year 10x. 8/10 hunts we managed 1 Bull. 1Moose / 4 hunters/ 2 years. Dressed ave 500 lbs/4/2= 62.5 lbs moose/yr. plenty!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by claystone

130,000 licensed hunters in 2015 in alberta , 220,000 total FN population in alberta, maybe 1000 at most even hunt. so there is 1,000 vs 130,000. To say that FN are the problem but non FN aren't. Is just close minded. I as a treaty fully agree there could be better practices by FN hunters but it's not the only problem and focusing on this and nothing else is just as iv'e said close minded.

Between the years of 1965 and 1985 there was anywhere between 150,000 and 180,000 licensed hunters in Alberta with general moose tags given out for many more zones than today.


I think all most people would like to see is the sustainability of our wildlife first and foremost on everyone's agenda. Times have changed over the past 200yrs, unlimited harvesting should be a thing of the past.

[sns2]

Absolutely should be a thing of the past. I would be happy though to grant unlimited recurve bow tags to First Nations hunters.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

To be fair however and a completely unbiased here., not all the the licensed hunters in the Province get drawn or even hunt moose.
Ask many of those hunters and they will most likely complain about outfitter allocations as well, so it is not a "one thing solution" for sure.
Cat

Are you capable, that is the question?

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Between the years of 1965 and 1985 there was anywhere between 150,000 and 180,000 licensed hunters in Alberta with general moose tags given out for many more zones than today.


I think all most people would like to see is the sustainability of our wildlife first and foremost on everyone's agenda. Times have changed over the past 200yrs, unlimited harvesting should be a thing of the past.

I agree something has to give. Governments already have this power and authority. Treaty Rights can be infringed upon for conservation purposes, all governments have to do is consult meaningfully with Rights holders and be honorable and withstand scrutiny in the courts if it ever goes there.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Are you capable, that is the question?

Bring physically capable of able to kill an animal and bring legally allowed to are two different things and what is being discussed is the issue of dwindling moose herds not who should be or can be Allowed killing a moose .
Cat

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Are you capable, that is the question?

Nobody is truly unbiased.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...ut-stereotypes

Even stereotypes are almost always the result of small bits of truth.

These arguments can never be conducted without personal feelings an emotions being intertwined with the truth.

[drake]

Originally Posted by claystone

130,000 licensed hunters in 2015 in alberta , 220,000 total FN population in alberta, maybe 1000 at most even hunt. so there is 1,000 vs 130,000. To say that FN are the problem but non FN aren't. Is just close minded. I as a treaty fully agree there could be better practices by FN hunters but it's not the only problem and focusing on this and nothing else is just as iv'e said close minded.

That "1000" treaty hunter (less than 1% of the population you quote) is not evenly distribut throughout the province nor does it account for the out of province FN hunters....unaccounted harvest by FN hunters 365 days a year is Alberta's biggest problem

[Rio56]

we have to speak up or it's GONE .... enough heritage and rights ... its now whats "wrong" not right .. think about it

[R3illy]

its gone based on what?

[Don_Parsons]

Sorry R3, I was only throwing out what other issues Moose "might" be encountering,,, many have chimed in since that post.

Kinda like a card game as no one knows who holds the better hand, factors in cycle of life one might think.

To day I was scouting prime critter habitat, a thing that comes to mind is old staill grasses that are low on suger levels.

It's example time if I may.

Many of us know of the Leard buffalo release close to the Nahany River,,, they released to Buffalo on the West side of river as they migrated too the village of Leard.

SRD was dumb founded why the Buffalo came to the village and never remained in the bush !!!

Taking to one of the elders he mentioned you did not make them a home, that is why they are here.

Old native practises were too light the forest on fire too bring new life too the forest and grasses,,, it sets the stage too rejuvenate from old growth... "this of course is just one factor in habitat".

There is a documentary of forestry using helicopters too burn swaths of bush up there now for the Buffalo. It's working good

As mentioned so far, other factors, human impact and the Moose if they have highs and lows in cycles.

Awesome to see all ideas and thoughts.

I'll add that I've never harvested Moose nor draw any tags for them as I'm on Deer and Elk.

Moose were never my thing, but interesting critters as I see many tracks where I hang out.

Vehicle collisions take a toll on the population as well, been working the North as its not on-common to see 1 or even 3 accidents along the hwys up there per night.

60 hit on the 3 month job in White Court / Fox Creek area 20 years ago.

Don