Denied Lease land access??

[Dieselj19]

I did some searching and found a couple sections of land in the area I hunt that are leased and surrounded by crown. I looked up the contact information and the restrictions the leaseholder put on the land. The restrictions were: No access if livestock on land, Call 2-3 days before when you want access, and access by foot only. I called and talked to the leaseholder today (would have went in person, but they live no where near the town I live in) and they said "no there is enough people that hunt there."
I am just a little curious as to if they can deny access like that? I have no intentions of persuing it any further or doing anything about it, but seeing as lease land is "agricultural public land" can the leaseholder straight up deny access even if all their conditions are met?

[Pudelpointer]

Short answer: no they can't.

Long answer: short of filing a formal complaint, there is not much anyone is going to do about it. Unless the access conditions say "Only X people allowed on any particular day", and there is no other reason access is not being allowed, then you have grounds for a complaint.

If no one challenges lease holders like these, then it will only get worse.

[IR_mike]

Just go and hunt.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Just go and hunt.

Good idea...fight the trespassing charge in court

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by pikeslayer22

Good idea...fight the trespassing charge in court

Think the leaseholder is going to go to all that trouble?

Most often they are not going to.

[lannie]

I would be surprised if they had there livestock off this early. You would be much better served if you asked the local srd guys for that area what route to take as they could be the "direct contact". Internet forums are not famous for accuracy.

[Lefty-Canuck]

If they allow hunting they cannot be selective who they block...everyone needs ample opportunity to access unless you broke the conditions for access.

LC

[Matt L.]

The two leased sections are surrounded by crown land? If so, and there no live stock on the lease, the leasee cannot keep keep you off the lease. So go hunting.

[sevenmil]

You asked him nicely and he told you no. He has no cattle on the land. If you are going on foot, he has no excuse, unless there is a fire ban in effect in the area.

He has to abide by the rules just as much as you do. So don't let him buffalo you. Why should law abiding hunters be the only ones that are required to follow the intent of this legislation? Don't be pushed around.

The law is the law and from what you have told us here you are on the right side of it.

[Deer Hunter]

Just hunt it, the enforcement/complaint system is essentially non existant. And it's your tax dollars supporting these ultra cheap crown lease rates. a large part of oil and gas revenues go right back to the leaseholder. These leases are cash cows for these guys. It's greed beyond greed.


http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w...cture/download

[MK2750]

I have had a couple say things to this effect.

I simply reply, "I am not speaking of your private land sir, I mean the government land at (give land location)."

They then generally understand that you are in the know about access rights and tell you it is OK.

This area, west and north is full of lease land. Most are really good and go beyond what one would expect. I have been offered access to leases via their private land, told of the best areas on the lease to check out, and offered quad or tractor for game removal.

It is just not worth arguing about here, but if access is scarce I would probably just head in there if the cows are off and other reasonable conditions are met.

[MK2750]

BTW, I was speaking with a farmer that told me because of the recent lawsuits (hunters, hiker etc. injured on private land and sueing the landowner) that he was no longer granting permission on private land and was informed by a lawyer to respond to people accessing his leases very carefully.

He now states that he cannot and will not deny access to anyone after his cows are off the lease, however you are on there at your own risk without his permission.

[OpenRange]

I can tell all of you don't have any land of your own to hunt on! "Just go on and hunt" , "Challenge it in court" , "take the trespassing charge and fight it if you get caught". I do the same thing the landowner did. I have just over 5 miles of river front on our place that we allow mule deer hunters on, we aim to have 4 hunters a day in that 5 mile stretch, if your guy #5 to ask then you get turned away. It's first come first serve. No one ever stops to think maybe this landowner is trying to make sure someone doesn't get shot because there are 20 hunters who feel they all need to be out there at the same time. Wanna know why landowners are stingy about access? Look at all the ignorant comments and you see the garbage, rule breaking individuals we deal with on a daily basis. I dread the opening day of hunting season because I spend more time driving around giving hunter $..h..i..t for not following the rules than I do checking cattle.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

I can tell all of you don't have any land of your own to hunt on! "Just go on and hunt" , "Challenge it in court" , "take the trespassing charge and fight it if you get caught". I do the same thing the landowner did. I have just over 5 miles of river front on our place that we allow mule deer hunters on, we aim to have 4 hunters a day in that 5 mile stretch, if your guy #5 to ask then you get turned away. It's first come first serve. No one ever stops to think maybe this landowner is trying to make sure someone doesn't get shot because there are 20 hunters who feel they all need to be out there at the same time. Wanna know why landowners are stingy about access? Look at all the ignorant comments and you see the garbage, rule breaking individuals we deal with on a daily basis. I dread the opening day of hunting season because I spend more time driving around giving hunter $..h..i..t for not following the rules than I do checking cattle.

Do you own or lease your 5 miles of river front?

[riden]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

I can tell all of you don't have any land of your own to hunt on! "Just go on and hunt" , "Challenge it in court" , "take the trespassing charge and fight it if you get caught". I do the same thing the landowner did. I have just over 5 miles of river front on our place that we allow mule deer hunters on, we aim to have 4 hunters a day in that 5 mile stretch, if your guy #5 to ask then you get turned away. It's first come first serve. No one ever stops to think maybe this landowner is trying to make sure someone doesn't get shot because there are 20 hunters who feel they all need to be out there at the same time. Wanna know why landowners are stingy about access? Look at all the ignorant comments and you see the garbage, rule breaking individuals we deal with on a daily basis. I dread the opening day of hunting season because I spend more time driving around giving hunter $..h..i..t for not following the rules than I do checking cattle.

I think the issue here is the lease holder is not following the rules, not the hunter.

This is gov't land he is leasing, rules exist about allowing access and they are very different from your private land. Iam no expert on this topic, but I read the rules recently and he has no right to limit the number of hunters on crown land. He leases it, we own it.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Just hunt it, the enforcement/complaint system is essentially non existant. And it's your tax dollars supporting these ultra cheap crown lease rates. a large part of oil and gas revenues go right back to the leaseholder. These leases are cash cows for these guys. It's greed beyond greed.

http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w...cture/download

true enough.

I have accessed a lease that has never been grazed.....has illegal improvements on it.....hunting it is not permitted....the leasee hunts it.....illegal access/hunting is not enforced....baiting of ungulates has been an ongoing issue....Why are the taxpayers giving this guy a welfare check?

[top predator]

Call it in for what its worth

[pikeslayer22]

I say storm all the lease land and complain to SRD as much as possible that way the lands will be sold to the highest bidder ASAP...if you all want a aprt of it get your money out!!!

[OpenRange]

Half of my 5 mile river front is lease land. I think most of you are missing a big piece of information. If I buy someone's place and lets say there are 320 acres of deeded and 320 acres of lease, I still have to pay the previous owner for the lease land and then pay rent on top of that to the government each year. In my area deeded acres cost around $550/ acres, lease acres are around $350 per acre to buy. So thinking that this is just government land that you can use at your own leisure is wrong, you can go on public grazing reserves without any hassle after October 15 when the cattle get pulled out of most co-op's. If all I had to do was take over the lease land from the previous owner and pay a small transfer fee and then the annual rent then by all means hunters have the right to access it. Since I need to pay for those acres and then pay a transfer fee and then the rent payments, it makes those acres the same as deeded acres in most landowners minds.

[Dacotensis]

This conversation is going to come up again in the next three months.
It should be a temp sticky for awhile so we don't have 20 threads on lease land.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

Half of my 5 mile river front is lease land. I think most of you are missing a big piece of information. If I buy someone's place and lets say there are 320 acres of deeded and 320 acres of lease, I still have to pay the previous owner for the lease land and then pay rent on top of that to the government each year. In my area deeded acres cost around $550/ acres, lease acres are around $350 per acre to buy. So thinking that this is just government land that you can use at your own leisure is wrong, you can go on public grazing reserves without any hassle after October 15 when the cattle get pulled out of most co-op's. If all I had to do was take over the lease land from the previous owner and pay a small transfer fee and then the annual rent then by all means hunters have the right to access it. Since I need to pay for those acres and then pay a transfer fee and then the rent payments, it makes those acres the same as deeded acres in most landowners minds.

So you are saying this excuses you from the Public Lands Recreational Access to Agricultural Public Land Contact and Access Condition Information that is in place for the public to access leases?

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

Half of my 5 mile river front is lease land. I think most of you are missing a big piece of information. If I buy someone's place and lets say there are 320 acres of deeded and 320 acres of lease, I still have to pay the previous owner for the lease land and then pay rent on top of that to the government each year. In my area deeded acres cost around $550/ acres, lease acres are around $350 per acre to buy. So thinking that this is just government land that you can use at your own leisure is wrong, you can go on public grazing reserves without any hassle after October 15 when the cattle get pulled out of most co-op's. If all I had to do was take over the lease land from the previous owner and pay a small transfer fee and then the annual rent then by all means hunters have the right to access it. Since I need to pay for those acres and then pay a transfer fee and then the rent payments, it makes those acres the same as deeded acres in most landowners minds.

Open, your kidding right?
Your family made the choice to purchase land you are going to continue to rent from ME. (The alberta taxpayer).
Though I appreciate the fact you are trying to keep it a safe and enjoyable experiance for everyone, you can't do that unless you get the gov to agree to it.
Phone and get your lease access conditions changed.

Jamie

[OpenRange]

My point was that if I have to pay for the land, then pay rent and a transfer fee then what I say happens on the lease land goes. If I only had to pay a rental fee to the government then the government gets to set the rules. I know people who have put out millions upon millions of dollars to own lease land and to say it isn't theirs to do as THEY please is morally wrong. We all know the government can step in and mandate us to allow hunters to do what they please but that wouldn't be a moral or ethical thing to do. The best way I can describe it is if you rent an apartment, you don't own it, but at the same time that is YOUR space and unless you do something seriously wrong they can't evict you are just enter your premises without you giving them permission. Just cause you technically "rent" something doesn't mean it isn't yours when you have a contract saying it is.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

My point was that if I have to pay for the land, then pay rent and a transfer fee then what I say happens on the lease land goes. If I only had to pay a rental fee to the government then the government gets to set the rules. I know people who have put out millions upon millions of dollars to own lease land and to say it isn't theirs to do as THEY please is morally wrong. We all know the government can step in and mandate us to allow hunters to do what they please but that wouldn't be a moral or ethical thing to do. The best way I can describe it is if you rent an apartment, you don't own it, but at the same time that is YOUR space and unless you do something seriously wrong they can't evict you are just enter your premises without you giving them permission. Just cause you technically "rent" something doesn't mean it isn't yours when you have a contract saying it is.

good point!, would be very nice if that was the last comment ever on this issue, but, naturally it won't be.....some people will find a way to abuse anything and everything that has "rules. Myself??? you rent the land from spring until Oct. 15th, to graze your cattle after that you are done with it until the next spring....

[Coiloil37]

I had the same problem with a guy down by Drum last November. His excuse was he had a quota of people he let on and it was filled so I was SOL. I tried to talk to the guy and he stonewalled me so I contacted SRD.InfoCent@gov.ab.ca and asked them what I should do about it. They told me to contact the Lands Settlement Officer in the area (which happened to be Calgary) and make the complaint which I did.

It really is greed upon greed.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by hal53

good point!, would be very nice if that was the last comment ever on this issue, but, naturally it won't be.....some people will find a way to abuse anything and everything that has "rules. Myself??? you rent the land from spring until Oct. 15th, to graze your cattle after that you are done with it until the next spring....

The rules are pretty well laid out Hal, hopefully we can all follow them regardless of how we feel about who "owns" the land.

Ranchers are only paying the gov. a rental fee, if they paid an exhorbitant amount for that privilege, they got took. You can't "own' leased land, no matter how much you think you do.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

My point was that if I have to pay for the land, then pay rent and a transfer fee then what I say happens on the lease land goes. If I only had to pay a rental fee to the government then the government gets to set the rules. I know people who have put out millions upon millions of dollars to own lease land and to say it isn't theirs to do as THEY please is morally wrong. We all know the government can step in and mandate us to allow hunters to do what they please but that wouldn't be a moral or ethical thing to do. The best way I can describe it is if you rent an apartment, you don't own it, but at the same time that is YOUR space and unless you do something seriously wrong they can't evict you are just enter your premises without you giving them permission. Just cause you technically "rent" something doesn't mean it isn't yours when you have a contract saying it is.

Bull.... The Mad Hatter would be proud.

You signed an agreement for the use of Public land with set conditions.

If my rental property tenants break the terms of the lease they risk having the lease terminated, possibly with restitution required.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

The rules are pretty well laid out Hal, hopefully we can all follow them regardless of how we feel about who "owns" the land.

Ranchers are only paying the gov. a rental fee, if they paid an exhorbitant amount for that privilege, they got took. You can't "own' leased land, no matter how much you think you do.

think that's what I kind of alluded to, get your lease, feed your cows...get them out by Oct. 15th and we will talk to you next spring, ..and please don't tell me that you have a quota for people on public land in November.... no rancher tells Camp Wainwright what they're going to do with their land once they have to move the cattle out...

[CanuckShooter]

I have never had a problem accessing leased land, but I do find it odd that if your buying a property that you'd have to pay to take over an adjoining lease....how can anyone sell leased land??

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I have never had a problem accessing leased land, but I do find it odd that if your buying a property that you'd have to pay to take over an adjoining lease....how can anyone sell leased land??

It's Alberta, everything's for sale. LOL