Sheep on a Draw?

Originally Posted by spurly

At least 10 1/2 yrs.old by the rings

Yup, I totally agree.

[Tundra Monkey]

[QUOTE=ksteed17;476681]both podman and i are the ones in that story and it scored under 200 actually QUOTE]

I'm a gross guy

I love your sheep Man!!!!!

Could you just arbitrarily fire a pic up every once in awhile????

tm

[ksteed17]

I'm a gross guy

I love your sheep Man!!!!!

Could you just arbitrarily fire a pic up every once in awhile????

tm[/QUOTE]

haha well im sure there will be some pics of it to come after it gets mounted and stuff

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by podman

I didn't hear about the story of this hog, what are the specifics? I see your next post you stated he got 3 years suspension?

Man....look at you fishin on this one

Good thing I was on the level

tm

[podman]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Man....look at you fishin on this one

Good thing I was on the level

tm

Ya I was fishin, Last we heard we were 4th in the last 3 years and you need to be top five B&C for the last 3 for an invite to their awards banquet. But also I love seeing the pics.

[Tundra Monkey]

Cross your fingers.....I'm sure it would be a blast!!

Either way he's an AWESOME ram.

I laughed when I put 2 and 2 together......you should be a cop or an insurance dude....I think you'ld be good at it

tm

[spot and stock]

that ram is 11 1/2 I think. You want to shoot a just legal ram every second year fine, just try to make sure the odd one is a loose K-Country ram. Sheep are trophys no matter what size, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Remember we as residents still have the best access to sheep hunting period, and the hunting is still pretty good. I personally have a curse for sheep hunting, not because I havent had the chance to keep a few tags off the Christmas tree, but because big book rams are hard to find.

[sheepguide]

Be alot of guys disagree but 13 1/2 min.
Red lines are tough to tell and could be another there but and old ram non the less!

WorldRecordRam021.jpg

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Be alot of guys disagree but 13 1/2 min.
Red lines are tough to tell and could be another there but and old ram non the less!

Attachment 17934

I had him at 13 1/2 as well, but was scared to say it

[LongDraw]

ksteed's ram is a definate old timer. Pictures can be decieving, but from the picture 12 yrs or maybe even older. When a sheep gets this old there can be 3 years of growth in the last 1/2" or less.

F&W missed the boat on this one.

[ksteed17]

i noticed this pic on a bc forum. This is a pic of a sheep from bc and i noticed that the rings on this sheep are very easy to judge. just wondering if this is typical of sheep from bc cause most of the pics of seen and the few sheep ive seen in real life, the growth rings have never been this pronounced.

[/IMG]

[Pathfinder76]

Sheep are just like anything else. There are no two alike. I wouldn't say that is a BC trait.

Where do you think your ram is from?

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by chuck

Sheep are just like anything else. There are no two alike. I wouldn't say that is a BC trait.

Where do you think your ram is from?

haha well after today seems like everyone has their own opinions on that

[Swarovski]

I don't feel that the above scenario is targeting experienced sheep hunters at all. It is however making everyone think twice about shooting a young sheep (experienced or not). By harvesting old mature rams they have had a chance to pass on their genetics and probably do not have many more years left.
If anything the scenario would in fact help experienced sheep hunters as they might be able to hunt back to back years as long as they are harvesting good mature rams they are doing no harm to the population.
By choosing to pass on these 6 and 7 year old rams I believe that we would begin to see an overall increase in age and therefore better opportunity to harvest mature rams for both the experienced and learning sheep hunter.

The above ~200" bighorn is without a question 10 years or older and the fact F&W aged him at 7 is why I stated above that we need to do a better job educating even them on aging sheep.

[ishootbambi]

the real reason montana has more big book rams is simply because they manage the resource much better for trophy quality. they are on a draw so unfortunately not everyone gets to hunt every year, but when you get a tag, its not uncommon to see and have the option of passing up several full curl rams looking for that one perfect sheep that really makes you sweat. now everyone be honest here, and think about what you would do if a legal ram was standing in front of you in a legal area in a legal season, here in Alberta. i dont know anyone personally who wouldnt be packing him off the mountain, and looking at the photos from regulars here that seems to be what most guys would do. i would too, and i did. i have had one chance at a legal ram, and he is at the taxidermist right now. i would love a 10 year old 200 incher, but its pretty unlikely the way things are now. take a quick look through B&C's records and you will see that Alberta has been the biggest producer of truly huge rams. look closer and you will see that most of them were taken many years ago. the recent....and i mean last 20 years or so book heads have largely been coming off of the mines around alberta through draws or minister tags. it has been said that 95% of the legal rams in alberta outside of parks and sanctuaries are killed every year by hunters. there is no way to prove that for sure, but i suspect that number is close. that is sad because although TJ is right....very few rams have what it takes to make 200 inches, most sheep in Alberta do have the right stuff to make 180 if they were allowed to grow up. i would love to see some changes to sheep hunting here. my proposal would be to use highway 1 as the boundary. it has been well documented that the sheep south of there are a little bigger so lets put them on the draw and really grow some crankers to satisfy the trophy crowd, but leave the sheep to the north the way things are now. that way everyone who is willing to take just any legal ram still has a place to do their thing. i would keep the draw areas as they are at cadomin and the grande cache mine. its a shame how many beautiful rams die of old age to be locked away in fish cop storage sheds. i know this wont please everyone either........ but just one sheep hunters opinion.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

my proposal would be to use highway 1 as the boundary. it has been well documented that the sheep south of there are a little bigger so lets put them on the draw and really grow some crankers to satisfy the trophy crowd, but leave the sheep to the north the way things are now. that way everyone who is willing to take just any legal ram still has a place to do their thing.

There are lots of big sheep north of HWY 1 also. Beens lots of 180-200" sheep shot up this way. Places such as the Burnt timber, Dormer and Panther which has genetic influance from the same sheep as you see at Miniwanka. And have produced trophy rams for alot of years but the numbers of rams here has declined. Now not very many rams even come out of these areas. These types of areas are the ones that need the management. To only put draw in the southern zones will double the hunting pressure in the zones with no limitations. Places like the Blackstone gap, George creek and Opabin that have only ever produced one book ram should get some young breeding stock transplanted to improve genetics and maybe improve the trophy quality.
Places like the North and South Ram, Whiterabbit and Clearwater river that produce a fair number of rams each year could use some sort of draw or lenght of time between rams so that the age structure of legals rams will increase.
These are the areas that I know best and can im sure be continued on north to the wilmore and also south of Hwy 1. Each area will have an issue that could be delt with to improve numbers, quality or age structure of the herds.

If we are gunna improve the bighorn hunting in Alberta it needs to be province wide.

JMO
SG

[ishootbambi]

the precedent i am following here is utah and their elk mangement plan. approximately half of the state is general elk hunting where the meat guys can have their furn and half of the state is quite limited in either the draws or landowner tags. and no i dont think landowner tags are a good idea here. it seems to do a better job of satisfying everyone. do you have any idea how many 400 plus elk utah has produced in the last 10 years? last count was over 30 including the recent world record non-typical at just shy of 500 gross. that is the result of trophy management, not just a lucky bull that slipped through and got lucky. that is what i'm looking at here for our sheep. you say that some of the zones have produced very few record book rams and others produce many legal rams. think about that for a minute. dont you see that is nothing more than a result of hunting pressure. if those rams would be given a chance to mature, they would be bigger......everywhere. i dont know if the highway 1 boundary is the perfect solution, but the facts are what they are. southern sheep over the last 50 years of the management system in place now have a base circumference averaging about a half inch bigger than the rams to the north. the information has been recorded and that is fact. oddly though, the horn size is actually increasing rather than decreasing as a result of trophy hunting. there are several theories as to why, but im not getting into that. anyway, it doesnt matter what changes were to be made there would be guys upset about it. the whole province to a draw would irk some guys who like to hunt every year. my plan would anger those who hunt every year in the south cuz they couldnt hunt and those to the north would whine about increased pressure where they are now. split it up and make a patchwork of draw areas and you would have the same issue. no single solution is going to please everyone, but the way things are now isnt pleasing everyone either. the only guarantee i can give you right now is that the current situation is not the best for trophy sheep hunting. nearly every available legal ram in this province is killed the first year that lamb tip reaches the line through the eye. it certainly is a trophy that way, but it could be much better.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

the precedent i am following here is utah and their elk mangement plan. approximately half of the state is general elk hunting where the meat guys can have their furn and half of the state is quite limited in either the draws or landowner tags. and no i dont think landowner tags are a good idea here. it seems to do a better job of satisfying everyone. do you have any idea how many 400 plus elk utah has produced in the last 10 years? last count was over 30 including the recent world record non-typical at just shy of 500 gross. that is the result of trophy management

southern sheep over the last 50 years of the management system in place now have a base circumference averaging about a half inch bigger than the rams to the north. the information has been recorded and that is fact.

So what does Utah kill for elk in the rest of the state in the open zones?

To me a half inch in base circumfrence doesnt really improve things that great. Depends on how that weight is carried through out the horn. You need to get age on a sheep to get that weight out into the other circumfrences. A 14 1/2 inch based sheep will possibly be able to make book if he can grow up(They have been shot its a fact).

My first sheep was 5 1/2 years old and had 15 1/2 inch bases(just legal with lamb tips). If that ram would have made it to 7 or 8 it would have been a great sheep. But the zone he came from produces around 15 to 20 rams per year (12 for sure this year that I heard of) so rams dont have much chance to reach maturity. There is a high amount of pressure in these zones.

Genetics is there in MOST of Alberta but the number of rams reaching the ages of 8 - 10 are pretty slim. Id like to see the alberta average age in non draw zones on the sheep that are shot. I doubt it would make it above 6.

[ishootbambi]

the rest of utah not on draw does like alberta with sheep. lots of immature animals taken with few exceptions. my first ram is from the wilmore. 7 1/2 years old with 15 and a half inch bases and has lamb tips. he's legal by an inch and a half. there were 16 guys that i know of camped within 3 miles of where he died. if i hadn't shot him someone else sure would have. as for increasing the age of rams harvested, well.......that's kinda the point of this whole thread. a draw would limit hunting pressure which would allow more rams to grow to older age classes resulting in larger horns. it seems everyone agrees that would be great, but the difference is where to do it. honestly i dont give a crap if its a north/south divide or what, but please mr government guys....just do it somewhere. the places where they are on a draw in alberta now produce big rams. i would love to see it happen in more of the province. right now its very long odds to get a cadomin tag or the grande cache mine, but if you do you get a great hunting opportunity. i think most of us would like to have that chance at least once in our lives. i am applying religiously for those mine tags, but at 38 i don't know if i will live long enough.
sheepguide, i'm not sure what the heck your stance is. you seem to want more mature rams on the mountain and quote all kinds of numbers from this area and that area. if its not a draw to limit rams being killed, then what do you want? everyone hunt like now, but noone shoot anything? or is the draw ok....just not where you hunt? i dont mean to be argumentative, i just don't really understand what it is you are wishing for.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

the rest of utah not on draw does like alberta with sheep. lots of immature animals taken with few exceptions. my first ram is from the wilmore. 7 1/2 years old with 15 and a half inch bases and has lamb tips. he's legal by an inch and a half. there were 16 guys that i know of camped within 3 miles of where he died. if i hadn't shot him someone else sure would have. as for increasing the age of rams harvested, well.......that's kinda the point of this whole thread. a draw would limit hunting pressure which would allow more rams to grow to older age classes resulting in larger horns. it seems everyone agrees that would be great, but the difference is where to do it. honestly i dont give a crap if its a north/south divide or what, but please mr government guys....just do it somewhere. the places where they are on a draw in alberta now produce big rams. i would love to see it happen in more of the province. right now its very long odds to get a cadomin tag or the grande cache mine, but if you do you get a great hunting opportunity. i think most of us would like to have that chance at least once in our lives. i am applying religiously for those mine tags, but at 38 i don't know if i will live long enough.
sheepguide, i'm not sure what the heck your stance is. you seem to want more mature rams on the mountain and quote all kinds of numbers from this area and that area. if its not a draw to limit rams being killed, then what do you want? everyone hunt like now, but noone shoot anything? or is the draw ok....just not where you hunt? i dont mean to be argumentative, i just don't really understand what it is you are wishing for.

Im pro draw or more years between getting rams. I dont believe that people need a ram every couple years( I met a guy that has 5 rams all killed 2 years apart and all just legal. I dont get the point).
People cry because they say they wont get to hunt sheep if you can only kill one every 5 years or so. If this is the problem then get a camera and keep hunting.

But to just put part of our now open zones on draw will really hurt the zones that are general season.
Be just like when they closed the south ram for atv hunting. Most of them atv sheep hunters now hunt the hummingbird increasing the pressure by at least 2x.
I also dont beleive that the zones with 8 non resident tags should have this many. I feel 4 is plenty.

SG

[spurly]

A lot of potential, for bigger, older rams is being lost, by having the 4/5 rule north of highway 3, these rams tend to have bigger bases, 16-17 in. bases are heard of quite often.If we moved this area to full curl, these rams might see a couple more years of age.Every year there are sqeaker rams shot in this area that have so much potential, but don't live long enough to show it.
There will be some rams that will never make it , but the genetics will remain, where they belong.I realy would not like to see only half of Alberta on a draw system, but would not mind seeing a trial period of 1in 3yrs, so that people do not shoot the first ram they see.Highway mortality , as well as Native rights in this area of the province is close to 30-40% of legal hunter harvest, we have to think of ways to stop this mortality, in order to help the sheep population.

[ishootbambi]

ok guide, you are pro draw or more time between tags. yup, that would reduce hunter numbers, and therefore provide more mature rams in those areas. so far so good. but then you argue both sides again. guys would complain about only getting to hunt every 5 years or so. well, you cant have it both ways. there are more guys wanting rams than there are rams out there. without limiting hunters on the mountain, bigger rams isnt going to happen. then, im not positive, but i think you say you dont want to leave any areas of the province off the draw? you point out that if that were the case, those areas left general would see increased pressure. well thats true, but those areas would hold barely legal rams which you say you are not interested in, so who cares? that situation already exists in alberta with other species. there are general mule deer zones in alberta that have very very few older mature big antlered bucks. near medicine hat, there are supposed draw zones that also hold nothing but small bucks. i say supposed because although you have to apply for a draw, you can be drawn every year because there are so many tags handed out. often it is normal to see more hunters than deer in these zones. sound familiar? yet in some zones managed for trophy bucks there are wait times of up to 5 years to get a tag, and there are numerous trophy bucks to choose from. furhtermore, there are less other hunters to compete with. as a trophy hunter, i am willing to wait longer to try for a big buck, yet there are opportunities for the meat hunters as well. thats all im asking for with the sheep. i dont need to be greedy and ask for the entire province, but please SRD....give me someplace to have a decent opportunity to have a quality hunt for big mature rams.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok guide, you are pro draw or more time between tags. yup, that would reduce hunter numbers, and therefore provide more mature rams in those areas. so far so good. but then you argue both sides again. guys would complain about only getting to hunt every 5 years or so. well, you cant have it both ways.


as a trophy hunter, i am willing to wait longer to try for a big buck, yet there are opportunities for the meat hunters as well. thats all im asking for with the sheep.

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

Good post

[ishootbambi]

ok, so then we are in agreement for the most part. the only clarification is to say i never said anyone is hunting meat rams. it is merely a comparison of hunting opportunity versus trophy quality. the majority of sheep hunters want bigger rams, but there are hundreds of guys out there who would gladly take any legal ram if given the chance. im just trying to include them as well by leaving some zones open for them.

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok, so then we are in agreement for the most part. the only clarification is to say i never said anyone is hunting meat rams. it is merely a comparison of hunting opportunity versus trophy quality. the majority of sheep hunters want bigger rams, but there are hundreds of guys out there who would gladly take any legal ram if given the chance. im just trying to include them as well by leaving some zones open for them.

if you put sheep on draw you're looking at a 10+ year wait to get drawn.


there's got to be a better way.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

I totally disagree. In 24 years I've killed three rams but I oppose any legislation that would have kept me out of the field for more than one year after killing a sheep. Just because I have a tag in my pocket doesn't mean I'm going to kill a ram but it does give me the opportunity to be in the field and kill a really big ram if I see one. Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

There are a couple basic flaws I see with longer wait times. First, I'm really not convinced there is a problem with guys shooting too many rams but even if there is, and it's a big is, why penalize those that work hard and learn about sheep hunting. I haven't killed many big whitetails so perhaps successful whitetail hunters should sit out five years. Either that or I could get off my lazy butt and hunt them harder. Second, if the guy who killed a ram two years ago is kept out of the field, does F&W really believe that someone else isn't going to come along and kill that same legal ram. I don't see this a reducing harvest at all. It may assist some of the unsuccessful sheep hunters in harvesting a ram but some time and hard work could do that as well.

Why penalize a guy that works hard and is successful?

[whitetail Junkie]

Areas with High hunting pressure should go on draw.

[LongDraw]

The only way I see a sheep draw increasing the chance at an old mature ram, above 8 yrs old is the lottery style draw. Sacrifice a few zones that hold good genetics and give out so few tags that killing a few bruiser rams every year has no effect on the population. Make it a once in a lifetime tag.

Cadomin and 408 are great examples. 408 not being a lottery, but with only a few tags given out, and add in archery gear the harvest seems not to decrease the old, mature rams in the area that I can see. Same goes for Cadomin.

What about a quota for the areas that get hit hard- like 412? 410 is on a draw, yet the ram numbers and quality has been on the decline for the past 15 years or so. Some feel that 410 suffers because of the increasing general tag harvest in 412 over the past 10 or so years? I believe there is a quota system in the unlimited areas in Montana, not sure if it would work here though?

Based on SRD's definition of a Trophy ram the current system works fine. No rams under 5.5 yrs get killed. The average Mule deer buck in the draw zones that gets killed is younger than 5. Seems from a game management perspective they are achieving their goals. There is a big difference between game management and trophy management.

Good post longdraw and I think it raises the question...what really is the problem. Are too many rams being killed and the population is declining to undersireable levels, are there not enough big rams to satisfy hunters or are unsuccessful hunters just looking for an edge to kill a ram. In this thread I've seen all three identified. I think the problem needs to be identified before we can find a solution...if there really is a problem

Through the grapevine I've heard that F&W thinks too many rams are being harvested and that populations are getting too low. They are considering a five-year wait period because......"It would have the least impact on
recreational opportunity and still provide a reasonable opportunity to harvest a ram."

It seems a strange tact to me as a management strategy. They must figure that only a handful of sheep hunters are actually capable of killing rams. When populations of other species get low, they put them on limited entry draw, not keep the successful hunters out of the field.