Form Question

[TreeGuy]

Hi guys. I want to buy Mrs Tree a bow, but there is a problem. Her elbows flex far more than an average person. Thus, when I set her up in a draw position, the inside of her elbow naturally lies within the path of the string! She has shot recurves previously at a youth/horse camp years ago and said that although she enjoyed it alot, the string kept hitting her arm.

Honestly, her arm bends alot and I can see no possible way for her to be able to shoot without getting slammed. Worst of all, my 6 year old son is starting to display the same thing! Is there any way to overcome this, or are we hooped? Any advice would be appreciated!

Tree

[mud slug]

had that problem. ended up getting a bow that was 1 inch short of my draw lenght, and learned to make it work. alot easier on the arm.

[catnthehat]

Get her to hold her arm out, shlouder slightly down and forward.
get her to turn her arm from inward from the shlouder, then turn only her wrist back to the left so the heal of her hand is down.
That should fis it.
her elbow should be pointoing out, not in , and this is the way to correct it.
if her elbow is sticking inward, her shoulder is not rotated properly.
Cat

[TreeGuy]

Cat, it's a joint thing. With her arm naturally 'locked', the forearm is easily 20 degrees past center. She may be able to overcome it with a very low poundage setup, but I doubt that she'll ever be able to hunt.

Tree

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Cat, it's a joint thing. With her arm naturally 'locked', the forearm is easily 20 degrees past center. She may be able to overcome it with a very low poundage setup, but I doubt that she'll ever be able to hunt.

Tree

Does her arm hang stright down if she drops it, and relaxes, or is it bent then as well?

The reason I am asking is her arm should not be locked in place.
A person's arm naturally hangs with a crook in it.
maybe she will have to go to a shorter draw and open stance?
Cat

[CNP]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Hi guys. I want to buy Mrs Tree a bow, but there is a problem. Her elbows flex far more than an average person. Thus, when I set her up in a draw position, the inside of her elbow naturally lies within the path of the string! She has shot recurves previously at a youth/horse camp years ago and said that although she enjoyed it alot, the string kept hitting her arm.

Honestly, her arm bends alot and I can see no possible way for her to be able to shoot without getting slammed. Worst of all, my 6 year old son is starting to display the same thing! Is there any way to overcome this, or are we hooped? Any advice would be appreciated!

Tree

I think it is a muscle thing that allows women to have elbow joints that hyper extend (bend backwards slightly). Women and children have less muscle and therefore don't have the tendons providing resistance like heavy armed macho men lol. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about either . There are sports braces that might help the hyper extension??? These are usually for injuries though. You can't to that thing Cat describes for shooting a compound (humped over like you're doing something to a football)................a lower # bow to start with and maybe she can work her way up?????????

I see you are concerned about your son and the qualities he is displaying.....just kidding.....once he grows some muscle all will be well. Don't try to fool nature by putting steriods in his cereal

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by ehntr

You can't to that thing Cat describes for shooting a compound (humped over like you're doing something to a football).

Not sure what you are reffering to?
What I was discribing is documented in both level one and two coaching manuals IIRC, and was tought to many of us by a high level coach from the national team.
I took the courses because i was always asked to instruct new compound shooters, so figured I may as well learn properly.
I gave it up as a useless endevour because it seemed that most were more concerned about putting gear on their bows than learning proper form first to increase their scores.
As far as shortening the draw length on a compound, you don't have to shorten it much, just an inch or two most times...
Cat

[CNP]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Not sure what you are reffering to?
What I was discribing is documented in both level one and two coaching manuals IIRC, and was tought to many of us by a high level coach from the national team.
I took the courses because i was always asked to instruct new compound shooters, so figured I may as well learn properly.
I gave it up as a useless endevour because it seemed that most were more concerned about pttuing gear on their bows than learning proper form first.
As far as shortening the draw length on a compound, you don't have to shorten it much, just an inch or two most times...
Cat

I was just having fun with that one Cat........It just brought to mind some funny position things I do when shooting a recurve or LB. No malice intended....

[TreeGuy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Does her arm hang stright down if she drops it, and relaxes, or is it bent then as well?

The reason I am asking is her arm should not be locked in place.
A person's arm naturally hangs with a crook in it.
maybe she will have to go to a shorter draw and open stance?
Cat

Cat, excellent point in regards to 'locking' your arm in place. I just drew my bow back several times and realized that holding a full draw in place is far more muscularly based than joint. Hmmmm.

Maybe if I start her really lightly (my son also) to try to build muscle via very discliplined form there may be some potential. Thanks!

Tree

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by ehntr

I was just having fun with that one Cat........It just brought to mind some funny position things I do when shooting a recurve or LB. No malice intended....

Wise guy!! I thought you shot a stick!!
Tree, here's a link you may find helpful, it explains the open stance and how the arm should not be locked.
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/1...ues-stance.htm
Now excuse me while I practice shootin my flat bow laying down!!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Cat, excellent point in regards to 'locking' your arm in place. I just drew my bow back several times and realized that holding a full draw in place is far more muscularly based than joint. Hmmmm.

Maybe if I start her really lightly (my son also) to try to build muscle via very discliplined form there may be some potential. Thanks!

Tree

Also , I'm not sure if you are aware, but the trapezius muscles in the back do most of the drawing, not the chest and arm muscles.
This is accomplished by starting the draw above the shoulder height and basicly lowering the bow while tensioning the back muscles .

Cat

[TreeGuy]

Cat, I've had an interesting 'row to hoe' in terms of developing my own form. Since I've been climbing trees for a living for 12 years now (entering my 17 season in the industry), I have a weird level of muscle development. I'm no freak by any means, but I'm 5' 10" and 165lbs with 8% body fat and muscles in weird places.

Lessons did NOT work for me in a practicle sense. I simply had to get out and shoot and teach myself while keeping all the advice in mind. I'm smart enough to listen to any advice, experiment with it and then adapt it to my own personal body-type.

With your advice, I now think that I have a GOOD problem on my hands. It's going to take more time and effort with Mrs Tree and the boy to get 'em shooting well. That's too bad...............

Tree

[Rackmastr]

Tree....

I always try and keep a slightly bent arm....NOT a locked one. I have found that anyone who shoots with a perfectly locked bow-arm is asking for problems anyways, and proper form dictates that you should have a slight bend in your arm.....usually the guys who lock their elbow in place are shooting a bow with too long a DL....and that can cause problems...

When there is a slight bend and her elbow is not 'locked in' it should work and her elbow should be outta the way....maybe?

Good example of "good" form can be found on several hundred threads on Archerytalk if you'd like to look through some good pics...

This is also from an article by Randy Ulmer....

HOW MUCH SHOULD YOU BEND YOUR ELBOW?
Some archery teachers urge their students to bend their bow arms several inches and then aggressively push the bow forward as they pull through the shot with their back muscles controlling their release arm. They advocate squeezing the trigger to create an abrupt and dramatic explosion of the upper body on release. This style of shooting is called the push-pull method.
With all due respect to these instructors, I don’t recommend the push-pull method for the majority of archers shooting release aids. I agree that you must squeeze the trigger to produce a surprise release, but the push-pull style is too easy to get wrong and when you do it wrong, you create tension. As I’ve already mentioned, tension destroys accuracy.
Simply unlock your elbow at full draw; that’s all the bend you need. This simple action will shorten your draw length by roughly 1/2 inch, at the most. You’ll feel the difference in your shooting immediately. As soon as you unlock your elbow, your arm will relax and will act like a shock absorber.

I've got a lifelong scar on my forearm from a combination of string-slap, and stubborness. I shortened my draw length just a bit, and that forces me to keep a bend in my arm.

I know your bow should fit you perfectly, but sometimes you have to give a little to gain a lot.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Hoochie Papa

I've got a lifelong scar on my forearm from a combination of string-slap, and stubborness. I shortened my draw length just a bit, and that forces me to keep a bend in my arm.

I know your bow should fit you perfectly, but sometimes you have to give a little to gain a lot.

Proper bow fit has to do with accuracy and archer comfort.
I think you gat that right there, Hoochie!
I have been told in the past that a person needs a certain draw length , but usually find the draw they say they need is about 1 11/2" too long for them because of the way they measure it.

When shooting my stick bow, I get told my arrows are too long, my draw length is too short, etc, because of my height.
I use a very open stance when shooting a stick , and this is where things shorten up.....
Cat

[nekred]

Tree, I understand what you are saying.

There are a few things to get proper alignment and best way is to see a qualified coach.

Stance. Most comfotable and therefeore most stable is to plant both feet side by side at shoulder width apart. Parrallel to shooting line. then slide back foot strait ahead so balls if feet are where toes used to be. Then turn front front towards target about 20-30 degrees whatever is most comfortable.

This will set a stable open stance.

Then on the draw. this sits the shoulder. set hand position with bow slightly down. Then relax shoulders, let them drop. Raise bow, keeping shoulder low.. just slightly above shootin plane and set elbow to just before locked position. draw rotating elbow above shoulder.

The elbow is not bent but not locked.... just sligtly before strait is the straites position. When locked for a normal person it is actually hyper extended and when energy is released causes torquing.

Keep elbow just before locked is usually the mot consistent... not a significant bend!....just not locked.... Locked elbow usually make shoulder also come out of alignment.

As for draw length.... get Mrs tree to stand adjacentto a wall. Make a fist and have here stay uprght until her fist touches the wall. have her adjust feet in and out from wall until she is totally upright....and ableto touch wall. Now measure from wallto corner of mouth with her looking at spot on wall about 6 inches uo from hand!....(chin level).... this spot will also be in line with her eye!....

good Luck!...

[CNP]

The elbow is not bent but not locked.... just sligtly before strait is the straites position. When locked for a normal person it is actually hyper extended and when energy is released causes torquing.

You're telling me I'm not normal. Never wanted to be normal anyway...

I must be blessed with an elbow joint that locks (stops is better terminology for me) with a slight bend in it.......or maybe it's all those years pumping iron and drawing strings that created that situation.

Normal for a woman......not so much for a man.....but we are all different.

Just did an informal survey.... 2 women....both with hyper extended elbows and 5 guys....two with a straight arm and 3 with a slight bend. Analysis.....women = hyper, men = straight to bent. I'm not inferring anything else...