The gun registry is back

[Bellero]

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

Poland just did something stupid as well. No one can hunt unless they are 18 or over, so no kids can hunt with parents. Medical exam and assessment needed on a yearly basis and some other restrictive laws. I think only 300,000 people in Poland have guns legally, for a county that has a population of 38 million...

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

By that definition the USA has had a gun registry for years! All FFL's are required to keep Form 4473s on all firearm sales for no less than 20 years.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...atf-forms-4473

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

So what you are saying is that you are the only firearms owner that this will effect! Well that is a relief.

[Curly Bill]

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by Curly Bill

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

I have over 40 firearms and never had that done, if you buy in the right province, they don't do that.

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Curly Bill

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

Not all of them. I have bought ammo and guns at Canadian Tire and they just looked at my PAL and that is all. Kind of like getting ID'd at the liquor store.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

Read Bill C-71 in regards to what I have highlighted, you will now have to call in the RCMP and verify the buyer's PAL is valid and you will have to keep records of your sales to private individuals.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

So what you are saying is that you are the only firearms owner that this will effect! Well that is a relief.

Certainly not but I was appalled to open this forum after work and see Bill C-71 is barely being discussed on here.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Bellero

I have over 40 firearms and never had that done, if you buy in the right province, they don't do that.

Just out of curiosity, what Province (s) might that be ?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

It's another step closer....so a criminal steals your government ok to have gun and you know where I am going with this....target the criminals with up to death for thier actions.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

By that definition the USA has had a gun registry for years! All FFL's are required to keep Form 4473s on all firearm sales for no less than 20 years.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...atf-forms-4473

But that is where the various states draw the line etc....here in Canada it has the momentum of a freight train to keep on going to another full out waste of money registration...gun related crime didn't go away it just cost a lot of money to enjoy the shooting sports...we are supposed to learn from our past, especially if it failed...start hitting the criminals with harsh penalties....now that's money well spent, free up some cell space in jail, save on the cost to feed, cloth and house these animals...one rope can stretch a lot of necks.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Bellero

Read Bill C-71 in regards to what I have highlighted, you will now have to call in the RCMP and verify the buyer's PAL is valid and you will have to keep records of your sales to private individuals.

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

So what! If criminal elements were able to breach the federal gun registry and access addresses of gun owners, how much easier will it be for them to just break into a store and steal the ledger with all the names and addresses. Easier yet, just pay the store clerk and get a shopping list.

As for private sales, read Bill C-71 in details. This bill affect all gun owners, not just restricted, Swiss Arms and CZ858 owners.

[Bellero]

Firearms Lawyer Ian Runkle's take on C-71

Copied and pasted from his Facebook post:

"Okay, so I have been away most of the day, which means that my commentary on the new firearms bill is a little late. But, here goes.

Minor stuff:
* It incorporates the language used in the Criminal Code for definitions. This is sensible.

* Some grammatical changes, mostly which recognize that businesses/corporations exist.

More important stuff:

* Section 5(2) of the Firearms Act is amended to remove the "within the previous 5 years" that was previously incorporated. So instead of the CFO having to consider what happened in the previous five years, they now have to consider the issue generally. The effect of this is actually fairly minimal, because the courts had said that the CFO/etc are more than entitled to consider things outside the five year range, and the CFO/etc did consider it.

* Section 12 is amended by creating a new blanket grandfathering clause that can be done by regulation. Now, this suggests that the current government may intend to prohibit more firearms in future. However, it also suggests that they may grandfather in existing owners. This is a big warning sign for gun owners going forward, and one I haven't yet seen discussed. These firearms will also be excluded from the automatic ATT provisions. However, the new category of grandfathered firearms are not necessarily barred from being issued an ATT. This creates an uneven patchwork of laws that is exactly the opposite direction our firearms laws should be going.

* They are adding a specific grandfathering clause for the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles for owners who had one before June 30th, 2018. It's not yet June 30th... anyone feeling like giving me a present?

* Automatic ATTs for prohibited firearms are being clawed back, meaning most can't be taken to ranges. Those who have 12(6) firearms (short-barreled handguns) and who have registered as collectors will also not be issued an ATT that allows range trips for those firearms.

* Non-restricted firearms can now only be transferred if you call the CFO and get a reference number for the transfer. This is going to be a serious issue for gun shows, most of which happen on weekends, when the CFO is not open. It'll be a headache generally, because the CFOs office does not keep the hours they claim to keep (I frequently find that if I call in at 1:00 PM I may get the message that tells me that they closed at 4:00 PM and to call again the next day). This will also aggravate the issues associated with the CFO practice of placing a licence "under review", which is not permitted by the legislation, and effectively means that a person with a valid licence is nevertheless barred by CFO fiat from exercising transfers. This is a practice that I have been looking for an opportunity to challenge in court, though. Oh, and violating this is grounds for revocation of your firearms licence... though it'd also be grounds for criminal charges. The net effect of that is mostly something that interests folks like me, because it provides negotiation options.

* Businesses must now keep records of transfers for 20 years, which they provide very little details on confidentiality for. The Liberal Party has been spinning this as though the only way for the police or the CFO to get access to those records is via a warrant, and thus this is not a backdoor registry. This is either a lie or a fairly major oversight, because section 102 of the Firearms Act allows for inspection of a businesses records on fairly broad basis, including copying details. So... yeah. These records will be easily available to the CFO. Additionally, a business going under has to transfer the records to the CFO. So... not quite a registry, but definitely has some substantial monitoring.

* Major omission: Refusals to issue a reference number aren't enunciated in section 74 (referring decisions of a firearms officer to a court to have them reviewed). This means that challenges to this are going to be in a legal limbo. Arguably case law (including Runkle v. Alberta) says that this new creature will be reviewable by the section 74 process, but it would have been nice to clear up this particular disaster.

* It also revokes a ton of ATTs. So, there is going to be one hell of a backlog at the CFO's office the instant this gets proclaimed.

* Restores the prohibition on the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles.

* Allows the government to retain the long gun registry data.

* Removes the ability of the government to designate something as non-restricted by Order In Council.

Okay, so, some comments:

First, it makes sense that the same principles that allow a firearm to be designated as restricted by law or prohibited by law should allow the government to make it non-restricted. The whole "we need to take these decisions out of the hands of politicians" rhetoric is insane, because of course politicians decide the laws. The LPC just wants to ensure a 'ratchet' effect, where firearms can move to being more restricted, but cannot easily move back to being less restricted. This assumes that the government will never make an error, which is silly.

Second, there are indications in this bill of planned prohibitions to come. The people saying "Oh, they're not banning anything" are wrong, because there are clear plans laid to ban things.

Third, this legislation doesn't fix any of the legislative disaster that is our firearms laws, and generally makes things worse by making it an even more uneven patchwork of conflicting rules. I have no idea how laypeople are expected to navigate this.

Fourth, the business records provisions are not as described--because these records are not excluded from the application of s. 105, the promises that a warrant will be needed to get this information are flatly false. I leave it to the reader to decide if this creates a back door registry. If the goal is to create same, this is probably the worst of all possible worlds, as it will be highly unreliable for determining anything."

[Digger1]

So, when’s the next election?

[Smokinyotes]

If I want to sell a non restricted rifle to someone I will need to call the cfo with the details of the buyer. The cfo then issues a reference number.

If this isn’t a long gun registry I don’t know what is.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

If I want to sell a non restricted rifle to someone I will need to call the cfo with the details of the buyer. The cfo then issues a reference number.

If this isn’t a long gun registry I don’t know what is.

After the bill is voted in the HoC and gets Royal assent, that's exactly what we'll have to do yes.

[possum]

Originally Posted by Digger1

So, when’s the next election?

I hope you are joking..........

[possum]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

If I want to sell a non restricted rifle to someone I will need to call the cfo with the details of the buyer. The cfo then issues a reference number.

If this isn’t a long gun registry I don’t know what is.

Just sell it......The CFO will have No Idea what day it was sold, unless you provide receipts. It may have been sold back in 2017.

[Smokinyotes]

Maybe someone can enlighten me. I didn’t see any where in the proposed changes about getting tougher on crime or how any of the new laws will reduce illegal guns in the hands of criminals.

[Zuludog]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Maybe someone can enlighten me. I didn’t see any where in the proposed changes about getting tougher on crime or how any of the new laws will reduce illegal guns in the hands of criminals.

Exactly!

[ctd]

If everybody called in twice a day and "sold" a gun to their friend the system would get overloaded and not work.
All it says is you have to verify their PAL.

[michaelmicallef]

So gun shops have to keep logs. That's what they did when the used to call the PAL a FAC. So now it's a retro-registry. I thought think this round of gun laws is not that big a deal. It still is inching towards the Libs ultimate goal but it's a very minute move towards thier ultamate goal.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

Private sales are the way to do business.

[gunluvr]

Might as well just close the Buy and Sell. Private sales will now be clandestine.

[gunluvr]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

Might as well just close the Buy and Sell. Private sales will now be clandestine.

And therein lies the falacy of it.
I fell much better knowing this will reduce gun crimes,though.

[Pioneer2]

Has a sale on PVC pipe.................SKS's will be on the list eventually.Like Australia ,first semis ,then pumps and then lever actions.In the Outback home evasions skyrocketed after this stupidity.

[brendan's dad]

From the Bill,

This should eliminate any concern that the business ledger/records could be used as a shopping list for criminals.

Names and addresses are not required to be recorded

7 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 58:
Conditions — licence issued to business

58.*1 (1) A chief firearms officer who issues a licence to a business must attach the following conditions to the licence:

(a) the business must record and, for the prescribed period, keep the prescribed information that relates to the business’ possession and disposal of non-restricted firearms;

(b) the business must record and — for a period of 20 years from the day on which the business transfers a non-restricted firearm, or for a longer period that may be prescribed — keep the following information in respect of the transfer:

(i) the reference number issued by the Registrar,
(ii) the day on which the reference number was issued,
(iii) the transferee’s licence number, and
(iv) the firearm’s make, model and type and, if any, its serial number; and

(c) the business must, unless otherwise directed by a chief firearms officer, transmit any records containing the information referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) to a prescribed official if it is determined that the business will cease to be a business.