No rim joist on House - how to install ledger properly?

EZM · #1 07-02-2021, 09:43 PM

Here's a new one for me, my house was built in 70's. There is no rim joist and I am looking to replace/install a ledger board for a deck. The deck/ledger I pulled out seems to have been screwed/nailed into end grains of the floor joists ..... yikes ....there was literally 4 nails and maybe 8-9 screws on the entire 8ft width and it needed to be replaced - but when I took it off there was no rim joist behind it !!!!

So, without a rim joist as a solid backing to attach properly sized lag screws - and considering the fact a 3/8 lag screw would likely split of pull out of the ends of the floor joists ..... what/how should I tackle this.

The deck is really the BBQ deck 8x10 - 18" off the ground, with a step to the large concrete patio ....

Right now I'm thinking I should block between the joists maybe and screw/nail them somehow (which is awkward to do) or at least block every second bay where a lag needs to go???

I don't have any other ideas ....I have never seen or owned a house without a rim joist, and, as a matter of fact, was shocked to learn this was done all the time in the 70's ...

Looking for tips / advice etc...

Fish along · #2 07-02-2021, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EZM

Here's a new one for me, my house was built in 70's. There is no rim joist and I am looking to replace/install a ledger board for a deck. The deck/ledger I pulled out seems to have been screwed/nailed into end grains of the floor joists ..... yikes ....there was literally 4 nails and maybe 8-9 screws on the entire 8ft width and it needed to be replaced - but when I took it off there was no rim joist behind it !!!!

So, without a rim joist as a solid backing to attach properly sized lag screws - and considering the fact a 3/8 lag screw would likely split of pull out of the ends of the floor joists ..... what/how should I tackle this.

The deck is really the BBQ deck 8x10 - 18" off the ground, with a step to the large concrete patio ....

Right now I'm thinking I should block between the joists maybe and screw/nail them somehow (which is awkward to do) or at least block every second bay where a lag needs to go???

I don't have any other ideas ....I have never seen or owned a house without a rim joist, and, as a matter of fact, was shocked to learn this was done all the time in the 70's ...

Looking for tips / advice etc...

So what you are now looking at is the butt ends of the floor joists correct? If so you could put short pieces in between the joists and attach with 3 inch deck screws and after replace the one you took out and also lose 3 inch deck screws ,pre drill if you are scared of splitting , it's awkward to do but just put a screw or nail 1_1/2 inches back top and bottom both sides and this will prevent the block from moving when you screw it on an angle,also if o were you I'd try anchors rather than lag bolts, but if you decide lags then definitely pre drill them.

cowmanbob · #3 07-02-2021, 10:04 PM

GRK fasteners instead of a lag bolt.

Twisted Canuck · #4 07-02-2021, 11:02 PM

I ran into that on an old house once. Our solution was to back set 2x4 blocks on each floor joist (both sides of each joist), an inch and a half in. Then we had a solid backing to face screw our 2x10 blocking to between joists. That way you aren't trying to toe nail those in, which isn't as strong and it's awkward to do as well and have it come out flush. You can even back set those blocks 3'' and double up the 2x10 if you really want more meat to lag your ledger board to. And throwing some PL400 glue in there will really give you extra strength and solid backing.

For what it's worth, that's a solid and simple solution.

obsessed1 · #5 07-02-2021, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

I ran into that on an old house once. Our solution was to back set 2x4 blocks on each floor joist (both sides of each joist), an inch and a half in. Then we had a solid backing to face screw our 2x10 blocking to between joists. That way you aren't trying to toe nail those in, which isn't as strong and it's awkward to do as well and have it come out flush. You can even back set those blocks 3'' and double up the 2x10 if you really want more meat to lag your ledger board to. And throwing some PL400 glue in there will really give you extra strength and solid backing.

For what it's worth, that's a solid and simple solution.

This is what I would do

Twisted Canuck · #6 07-02-2021, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

This is what I would do

Great minds.

Commander B · #7 07-02-2021, 11:35 PM

A proper vapor barier and insulation should also be considered between each joist going forward.

B.

Glion · #8 07-02-2021, 11:45 PM

Use some GRK fasteners. 5 inch should be plenty, they are excellent for not splitting. Do you have room under the rim to ramset into the concrete? If so you can throw a board under as well? Other than that what TC suggested is best imo.

Fish along · #9 07-03-2021, 12:01 AM

Are you going to use joists hangers?

Fish along · #10 07-03-2021, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

I ran into that on an old house once. Our solution was to back set 2x4 blocks on each floor joist (both sides of each joist), an inch and a half in. Then we had a solid backing to face screw our 2x10 blocking to between joists. That way you aren't trying to toe nail those in, which isn't as strong and it's awkward to do as well and have it come out flush. You can even back set those blocks 3'' and double up the 2x10 if you really want more meat to lag your ledger board to. And throwing some PL400 glue in there will really give you extra strength and solid backing.

For what it's worth, that's a solid and simple solution.

Yes that's a better idea ,then he can fasten into the block and toenail or screw into the joists,it will be as strong as you can possibly make it then.

fishnguy · #11 07-03-2021, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

GRK fasteners instead of a lag bolt.

Definitely this.

Also, post a pic if you can.

bucksnbears · #12 07-03-2021, 05:21 AM

don't attach deck to the house

smokeeter · #13 07-03-2021, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucksnbears

don't attach deck to the house

This, put another set of posts next to the house and run a beam on top to hold the deck joists. A little more work but completely free floating independent of the house.

jbrow397 · #14 07-03-2021, 08:25 AM

Free float the deck or install a double stack of squash blocks between the joists, then house wrap then ledger and flashing. Fasten squash blocks to joists with nails, not screws. Fasten ledger with GRKs.

Au revoir, Gopher · #15 07-03-2021, 11:13 AM

For 18" off the ground, I was thinking free float as well.

ARG

wildwoods · #16 07-03-2021, 11:20 AM

I would avoid GRK screws (too far apart, not enough meat) and floating the deck. I like twisted canucks idea. It’s a solid solution.

Another thing to consider is a ledger UNDER your deck nailer. Anchor bolt it into the concrete foundation and sit your deck nailer on top of that.

EZM · #17 07-03-2021, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

I ran into that on an old house once. Our solution was to back set 2x4 blocks on each floor joist (both sides of each joist), an inch and a half in. Then we had a solid backing to face screw our 2x10 blocking to between joists. That way you aren't trying to toe nail those in, which isn't as strong and it's awkward to do as well and have it come out flush. You can even back set those blocks 3'' and double up the 2x10 if you really want more meat to lag your ledger board to. And throwing some PL400 glue in there will really give you extra strength and solid backing.

For what it's worth, that's a solid and simple solution.

YUP, I think that makes sense - the 2x4 backer on the adjacent joists is a good idea - will need to see if I can knock that "filler concrete" out - which looks like it was smeared in that cavity by a bunch of drunk kindergarten kids - what a mess !!!! what were we thinking in the 70's????

There also insulation in there and who knows what else .... but yeah, I will give that a try - sounds like a decent solution to me .... an hours worth of work and some fiddling - but If I can shore it up, run some ice/water shield over it - I'd feel better about it.

Twisted Canuck · #18 07-03-2021, 04:41 PM

Sounds like it all needs a serious clean up. Make sure and insulate and install vapor barrier properly when you do it, you don't need moisture buildup in there and rot taking hold. Not a complicated fix, attention to detail and you will have a good solid fix.

pikergolf · #19 07-03-2021, 05:05 PM

Free floating. All the work involve to attach to the house and the risk of water encroachment....... no thanks.

Howard Hutchinson · #20 07-03-2021, 05:12 PM

Found this short video on line. It doesn't get into the ledger replacement yet offers some insight on connecting the deck to the ledger. Hope it helps some
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HaYmbXASCs
>>
Edit~ if you watch this through, it looks like you will get the specific details on ledgerboard installation. He seems like a well informed, experienced fellow.

Desert Eagle · #21 07-03-2021, 10:09 PM

I’m not sure on regs now, but when we built a deck at our last place a permit was not required for a freestanding deck. With that and all of the water damage I had to deal with at our previous place, I would never attach a deck to a house. I’m not saying I would go this route to avoid the permit process, as I do believe there is significant value in having it inspected to ensure safety and compliance, but at the time I was encouraged by the permit issuer it was a better route to go.

HyperMOA · #22 07-03-2021, 10:16 PM

x4 or whatever to free float it.

EZM · #23 07-03-2021, 11:09 PM

There was a deck and ledger there previously, so the "hole" is already there so I won't be opening up anything to the elements that already isn't. Given that a free standing deck is fine, but I still have block up and enclose the "hole". And since I'm doing it anyways, might as well attach a proper ledger.

Whomever did this, cut the sheathing and removed the stucco and toe nailed a ledger in there .......... so this why I'm replacing it, will need to waterproof and flash this (that's another story altogether) and then reinstalling a proper ledger board.

Right now I think I'm going to block it (backing it with 2x4 as suggested), fasten everything using structural screws (also as suggested instead of lags), and before attaching the ledger, trying to find a way to Butyl tape the entire area, then slide a piece of flashing up and under the stucco and sheathing somehow .... then shim off the ledger and install it to the waterproofed blocking and go from there.

Lot's of fussy work ......... a few hundred bucks in material no big deal, but it's the hours of labor and head scratching that I'm dreading.

The joys of renovations and fixes ........... the rewards of home ownership !!!!

Thanks for all the idea folks - appreciate them all ...

Freedom55 · #24 07-04-2021, 04:48 AM

Seems to me this is by far and away a more ambitious project than say, organizing a garage sale. Good luck.

ZJHoban · #25 07-04-2021, 01:45 PM

I like twisted canucks solution the best. I am surprised that there is no rim board, are the floor joists cast in place - embedded in the concrete?

I'm wondering if the person who built the deck didn't just use the rim board as their deck ledger.

Current specs on framing jobs often call out toe-nails every 6" connecting rim board to foundation ladder and similar through subfloor sheathing into rim.

I would do what twisted suggested, then water tight everything, and put my deck over top of that.

Remember to use fasteners that won't degrade in treated lumber.