fake deer encounter.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

My 2 cents.. There is the right way to hunt (legal and the wrong way (illegal). Not a lot of grey area..

You shoot out of season (30 mins after dark on last day is out of season... period) you are a poacher and you are subject to penalties..

Get these idiots out of the hunting pool. Make the hunting areas more safe and more ethical for people who respect their part in preserving our rights to harvest.

Dissappointing to see people try and justify or sympathise for some guy who would illegally discharged a firearm (shooting out of season game is illegal discharge as well as poaching) and bring a bad name to hunters.

Sad.

About sums it up to a tee. Hard to look at it any other way after reading this post. Good post.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Is that right? Then why do the fake deer/moose and elk all have trophy grade racks?? Perhaps to 'induce a person to commit an offense that the person would normally be unlikely to commit'??

Put a decoy spike buck out there and I'd go along with your take on it, otherwise they are deliberately entrapping people by putting temptation right in front of them.

Whether its a spike or a trophy fake deer the point is "us" normal law abiding hunters would not entertain taking a shot the day before the season. Poachers and slobs would and this is why the fish cops do what they do to catch the slobs.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Whether its a spike or a trophy fake deer the point is "us" normal law abiding hunters would not entertain taking a shot the day before the season. Poachers and slobs would and this is why the fish cops do what they do to catch the slobs.

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

I don't feel your explanation of "inducing" is appropriate in these circumstance. What SRD did is replicate a realistic set of circumstances that anyone of us could happen along while out hunting in the bush. There was no signs saying "get a million dollars if you shoot this trophy." or "hunting regs don't apply here" Either one of these would be inducement because they offer a promise of no consequences or a reward for the illegal activity.

Proof is in the pudding,.... if they shoot the decoy during a sting then it is reasonable to assume that this is what they would do normally. Someone could read your statements and believe that you feel poaching is o.k. if the trophy is big enough.

So the next time you hear a "Tting" instead of a "Whap" you will probably remember this thread.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

Life is full of temptation, your right... But how we raise our children and instil moral values of "right" and "wrong" addresses life's little temptations..

Morals values are what you do when no one is looking....

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

These people than are poachers/slobs and will face the consequences. No difference than an unlocked sports car, I walk by take a look at the interior, check it out for its beauty BUT I don't jump in and attempt to steal it. We all know right from wrong no matter how great the temptation and that is the difference between law abiding and criminal.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

So there's a big buck decoy just off the road the day before hunting season when numerous hunters are going out and setting up their camps. So seven vehicles with hunters drive by the fake deer, some stop and look at it , a couple get out and take pictures, some clue in and realiize it's a fake deer after looking through binocs, some think it's got to be real cause the head turns, they all eventually move on and set up their camps or scout the country getting ready for opening morning. A while later vehicle number 8 drives up the road sees the fake deer, slam on the brakes, jump out of the truck with already loaded guns and start shooting at the robo deer. Do you think they were entraped, do you think they shouldn't be charged because it was too much temptation? Just wondering.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

Then they are weak and deserve what they get....

LC

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Nothing like entrapment...would be way funny if some FNs blew them full of holes...

Except it isn't entrapment. Not by any definition of it.
Sooo, you have an issue with CCTV in Walmart to catch theives?
You'd rather F&W use a real deer?
Logic really never has been your friend.

Now stuffing a bottle of Goldslager in the hand of hooker covered in fairy dust inside of Rob Ford's car then waiting for him to leave work...that's entrapment.
And funny.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by coppercarbide

So you're saying that the poacher THOUGHT he had shot a real deer, but he had actually shot a fake deer. So we shouldn't prosecute him for shooting a real deer, even though he thought it was real and was poaching.

No matter what you think of the CO's methods, a poacher is a poacher is a poacher. There's no grey area here.

Man am I glad I came in here to get my daily lesson on sportsmanship and hunting ethics from people like you. Just a bloody shining beacon of conservation and justice you are.

And you Sir are a dullard with no view of the future.

I never said that I was opposed to the practice as it is at this time but...I do have concerns when we start convicting people of crimes where no harm was actually done because it seems reasonable to make a leap of faith that if he shot a fake deer...he would have shot a real one.

Next it'll be convictions for poaching because a guy has some lead shot in his truck while returning from a goose hunt or because a guy forgot to unload or because a gun is uncased after dark.

Right now its all well and fine and they are getting guys that no doubt would have poached if they could have but...its a scuzzy way of doing it and one that can lead to injustices down the road.

But don't hurt yourself trying to wrap your brain around that....jerk.

By the way...look up the definition of justice and you might learn that it is supposed to be a two way street.
What you wish for isn't justice...its a means to an end...and is quite one sided.

Also... thanks for the daily dose of brainless mouth lashing out at folks who are trying to have a polite debate which involves the exploration of different views.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

May be a derail but if it's a needy family does it make it right? I can understand if a family doesn't have much to sneak one but I don't condone shooting a big buck. Kind of like stealing a chocolate bar versus a loaf of bread. It's still a theft but different in my mind.

Who can say based upon siuch a hypothetical?

I've never seen a starving farmer and if its a city family the time spent huntimg would likely be better spent looking for work or working extra hours.

In the end if someone was starving...lost or whatever and they took a deer out of season because without it they'd die...who could blame em?
But... how realistic is the idea of a family that is without...having the time and means to go hunting and that being a better idea than trying to secure more income?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Except it isn't entrapment. Not by any definition of it.
Sooo, you have an issue with CCTV in Walmart to catch theives?
You'd rather F&W use a real deer?
Logic really never has been your friend.

Now stuffing a bottle of Goldslager in the hand of hooker covered in fairy dust inside of Rob Ford's car then waiting for him to leave work...that's entrapment.
And funny.

I agree...it isn't entrapment any more than dressing a cop up like a hooker is.

The difference being that soliciting sex for money is a crime regardless of the fake hookers real occupation and shooting a decoy is not a crime under any other circumstance.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I agree...it isn't entrapment any more than dressing a cop up like a hooker is.

The difference being that soliciting sex for money is a crime regardless of the fake hookers real occupation and shooting a decoy is not a crime under any other circumstance.

Gotta agree there......shooting a piece of plywood or whatever has never been a crime that i can remember.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I agree...it isn't entrapment any more than dressing a cop up like a hooker is.

The difference being that soliciting sex for money is a crime regardless of the fake hookers real occupation and shooting a decoy is not a crime under any other circumstance.

You do know that crime and being found guilty is about intent right? Mens Rea? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Bah its really not worth it sometimes.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Who can say based upon siuch a hypothetical?

I've never seen a starving farmer and if its a city family the time spent huntimg would likely be better spent looking for work or working extra hours.

In the end if someone was starving...lost or whatever and they took a deer out of season because without it they'd die...who could blame em?
But... how realistic is the idea of a family that is without...having the time and means to go hunting and that being a better idea than trying to secure more income?

I agree but my thoughts are I'd rather see them out there getting a animal rather then a welfare check. I suppose that if they are to lazy or can't work chances are they won't be in the bush.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

Yup, and we have a name for those people, they are called Criminals.

Some of them sell drugs, some steal cars and some shoot Deer out of season, or after dark.

If they shot at the decoy they most definitely would shoot at the real thing under the same circumstances, and even if F&W have nothing to do with that Deer being there.

It's only entrapment when the temptation is made greater then what it would
normally be. A promise of immunity from prosecution for instance.

[Sled Ed]

I put a head and a cape on a old saw horse I hear shots at it all the time . most is 6 at one time. LOL wonder how may of these guys went back to the range to chech there guns LOL

[coppercarbide]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

You do know that crime and being found guilty is about intent right? Mens Rea? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Bah its really not worth it sometimes.

It's definitely not worth it. Big Daddy Badger mouths off about almost EVERYTHING in this forum. He's a safety guy, a manufacturing guru, a pipeline financier, a refinery accountant, an ethics lawyer, etc. Not too many people who are an 'expert' in so many things.

[280Hunter]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

Gotta agree there......shooting a piece of plywood or whatever has never been a crime that i can remember.

Unless of course you're shooting it on land in which you don't have permission to do so.

[J D]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't agree that the decoy wouldn't / couldn't make a difference by inducing someone to take a shot they wouldn't normally. Temptation is a normal human vice...put a big enough temptation out there and you will catch people falling to the temptation.

So if you see a big buck out of season or in any no hunting situation and shoot it is it OK? In my mind no you are still a poacher.

Size of the animal does not make poaching correct. Some poach for meat some for trophy both are wrong.

In my opinion using a larger buck decoy is a smart choice for a CO because this way he can target those who poach for trophy and those who poach for meat at the same time.

If you fall for the temptation of shooting a big buck decoy odds are you would shoot the real thing under the same situation. Anyone busted shooting a decoy deserves it

[pottymouth]

Entrapment. ...bwahahaha

Ill remember that one next time I'm on a nude beach...lol

Temptation. ... bwahahaha

Ill remember that one too, next time I'm at the bank....lol

Making excuses for pathetic, waste of skin, losers and their actions, says either you are one too, or know one, and feel sorry for them.

Now if robo deer is on your permission, your walking in the bush and see him, during a legal season, with a legal tag, during legal hunting hours, with a legal weapon and a safe shot is present....I hear f&w will let you keep him....

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by J D

So if you see a big buck out of season or in any no hunting situation and shoot it is it OK? In my mind no you are still a poacher.

Size of the animal does not make poaching correct. Some poach for meat some for trophy both are wrong.

In my opinion using a larger buck decoy is a smart choice for a CO because this way he can target those who poach for trophy and those who poach for meat at the same time.

If you fall for the temptation of shooting a big buck decoy odds are you would shoot the real thing under the same situation. Anyone busted shooting a decoy deserves it

No it's not OK....what a dumb question....is it entrapment?? Are they deliberately setting them up and encouraging them to shoot by presenting them with an easy kill?? Perhaps with a trophy the likes they may never see again??

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Yup, and we have a name for those people, they are called Criminals.

Some of them sell drugs, some steal cars and some shoot Deer out of season, or after dark.

If they shot at the decoy they most definitely would shoot at the real thing under the same circumstances, and even if F&W have nothing to do with that Deer being there.

It's only entrapment when the temptation is made greater then what it would
normally be. A promise of immunity from prosecution for instance.

So the child that sneaks a cookie [falls to temptation] is a criminal?
The man that falls to temptation and lays with a jezzabell is a criminal?
What twisted thinking....holier than thou art thy.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

So the child that sneaks a cookie [falls to temptation] is a criminal?
The man that falls to temptation and lays with a jezzabell is a criminal?
What twisted thinking....holier than thou art thy.

Really a child? A cookie in the kitchen, that is already purchased..... Weak

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

You do know that crime and being found guilty is about intent right? Mens Rea? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Bah its really not worth it sometimes.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse....'sorry officer I thought that decoy was a legal deer' wouldn't cut it.

[J D]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

No it's not OK....what a dumb question....is it entrapment?? Are they deliberately setting them up and encouraging them to shoot by presenting them with an easy kill?? Perhaps with a trophy the likes they may never see again??

The point is if you are tempted enough to shoot a big robo deer odds are you would shoot the real version of it under the same situation.

And if that is the case you deserve what you get.

Entrapment or not you made the a bad choice and it shows your true colours.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

So the child that sneaks a cookie [falls to temptation] is a criminal?
The man that falls to temptation and lays with a jezzabell is a criminal?
What twisted thinking....holier than thou art thy.

Geez CS, how many times did you shoot at the stupid thing?????

[Stonegoat]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

give me a break. Theres temptation everywhere in society on daily basis. If you get duped into shooting an illegal deer regardless as to whether it was extremely tempting and so forth you deserve a flaming and charges. Not our faults if your a simple minded pylon that cant control his/her urges.

X2!!

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Really a child? A cookie in the kitchen, that is already purchased..... Weak

Come on potty....is the little kid a criminal?? The nuns would leave plates of freshly baked cookies on the table within reach of the hungry children...are they inducing them to sneak a cookie...or is the little turd a criminal that should be punished if he sneaks a cookie?

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by J D

The point is if you are tempted enough to shoot a big robo deer odds are you would shoot the real version of it under the same situation.

And if that is the case you deserve what you get.

Entrapment or not you made the a bad choice and it shows your true colours.

I agree with you....and works quite well apparently, much like bait cars.