Calling cougars...how to tell sex then?

This might be a stupid discussion but with the increased interest in the predator calling sports i can't help but look at all the regs regarding cougars and feel that they don't really cater to anything except running hounds...where you can tree them and judge them.

How the hey are you supposed to judge one once called in...you might only have a second to save your arse let alone tell if its got nuts or not???? I don't see how the sex thing will work and may leave a guy to S.S.S. method if he calls one in and it picks up his movement and starts to do the tail wag...if you can't get it to bugger off then what?

I'm thinkin there will be some predator callers in the future who will run into issues here. Now i guess a guy can alleviate it by only calling a zone that has both male/female open and there probably isn't enough callers or cats to be killed by callers yet to make it worthy of discussion....anyone else thought about it like this?

B

Personally I think only a trained eye would be able to do this at anything further than 40 yards. I think its about the same with bears, but can be a bit tougher with cougars from what I've seen. Big blocky heads indicate males, and other than that, the testicles are the easiest form of identification.

For treeing cats, the sex identification thing isnt as hard, and most people running cats are experienced in determining sex. For calling cats, I would only hunt in an area that both sexes are open as a mistake wouldnt be fun.

Just remember to sit for a long time when waiting for cats as compared to coyotes or wolves. From what I've heard they take a long time coming into calls.

some good info there Trev. good stuff dude.

There was talk of them changing this to just a number quota for both instead of male/female but i dont know if it will happen. It is pretty much set up for hound hunters generaly because it's not too often people shot them without help of dogs but it does happen. The easiest way to tell is buy the nuts of course but the males look bigger and huskier in the head and in the body than the females. The trouble is telling apart a young male from female. you will know when you are looking at a big tom. If you get a chance to look at the track the male is also a lot bigger and if you follow it for a while you will see the males always have scatches and they scratch often. I like the idea of the changing the male/female quota but at the same time i like it because there are less females shot which helps the population.

There's a court case, regarding this problem, mentioned in the latest Game Warden.
grizz

Cool, just wanted to see if it was a concern, or even thought about by others. Now i know i was on the right track and the risks are justified. Thanks.

B

That's some good info. I've wondered about that myself in the past. It's not like the big kitty is going to sit still while you check their privates :rollin

Just remember to sit for a long time when waiting for cats as compared to coyotes or wolves. From what I've heard they take a long time coming into calls.

Very true. I've heard 15-20 minutes is pretty average for coyotes, wolves, etc. and up to 30-45 minutes for cougars. Better hope it's a nice day or you're bundled up - 45 minutes at a stand could be brutal, especially having to sit still.

"There's a court case, regarding this problem, mentioned in the latest Game Warden."

Have any other details Grizz? This could become a problem even if not targeting cats...anyone calling for wolves(or even trying for bears) until the end of the spring bear season...could run into issues with a cat they might have to shoot also...can self defense be claimed? As i could seriously see it coming down to that...once cats put those ears back and go into that trance with the arse up and tail wiggling i don't think it matters what you do at that point...they are about to come your way in a hurry....just my opinion.

Would love to hear more about this article if possible, and what other people think of this potential situation?

B

Blake,
Self defence can be claimed in any instance where your life is at risk...if a cougar was about to kill you, if a bear was about to kill you, a human, an elk, a moose, etc....if you have to save your life by killing something else, then its self-defense.

That being said, if in a rare instance a cougar wants to kill you, you wouldnt even see him coming and most often wouldnt know it was happening until it was too late....

as i may have stated previously, i was using a pred call to call mulie does, and called a cougar instead, SHE had two cublets with her and it was in early fall, so i had no trouble doing the calculation this time.
I didnt have to give her a test-tickle!!:rolleyes
they waltzed in to about 16 feet from the muzzle, the whole episode took maybe 15 mins.

she turned and walked away, I put the safety back on.
things happen real quick, and id rather not have to decide whether its an inny or an outy while its coming in at 9.71 meters per second squared...

Im certainly no authority on cats, but Im fortunate to have seen 7 or 8 now in the wild (without dogs).
i say one tag=one cougar, same as one sheep tag= one sheep, etc..

The guys in the court case shot the cat, found out it was a female and that the quota for that zone was filled. They then claimed to have killed it in another zone. Personally, I think it's asking a lot that you positively have to sex the cat, before you kill it. You won't find me trying to check underneath. :lol
Grizz

Oh, okay, i thought maybe it was an instance of where it was called in sort of thing. I can see it happening if guys start calling them in where only one sex is still open for a zone...or maybe more likely where a guy is out calling coyotes and completely not expecting a cat to come in and then have to maybe shoot it because they can't identify themselves as human quick enough or shoo it away.

Like the man said...cats are not afraid, i can see them picking up the movement of the caller who's sitting on the ground in full camo with headnets etc. and basically go into the pounce mode right away. You can bet your arse i'd be shooting first and asking questions later in that situation. What caller is going to think to try and stand up or yell at the cat first? I can't see there being time....the 3 lynx i've called in just appeared like ghosts and they were all within 25 yrds before i saw them. A cougar and you may only have enough time/movement to swing the gun on it before you have to shoot.

Good to see others callers etc. have thought about these things too however. Personally i live to call predators as much as i do to hunt big game so i think about it and do it all the time. Its only a matter of time before i run into a griz or a cougar etc.

grizz
zoom lens on the vid cam works great!!
As long as you know what to look for!! They don't hang like an angus bull!!

the quota system in this province is bar none the best system in north america. it is being proven by producing record book cats every year and the sheer numbers of cat out there steadily increacing. the quota system used to be male or female doesn't matter which cat you kill. this system was ridiculous because you could over harvest a preticular sex of cat in a management area year after year. this gives you an unheathy population.
the only way to properly identify a male or female is the black spot which identifies the cat genitals. a female's black spot is no more than two inches below her anis. the tom's is about three to four inches below his anis. don't rely on trying to see his nuts, not all tom's nuts show like you would think.

Sure seems like a good system but my comments, and i'm sure others comments, weren't knocking it...just pointing out that its taylored for the hound hunters primarily...the rest of us would have no way of telling. So what its saying is...there is no other way to hunt them yet i know of two people who've called them in now plus varmitr has called them in also(thats three without asking around). Its a growing sport but probably not big enough to worry about changing anything just because of the callers, obviously a bunch would have to get shot out of self defense before it became a problem. I was curious about certain things and now i know if i am threatened then i can claim self defense...as i'm not going to let the cats keep me from calling everything i usually call. At least this way if it does come to that i don't have to just leave it lay and walk away...i can call fish and feathers and explain there was no time to identify myself as anything...there was only time to shoot....at least then the cat doesn't have to go to waste. I'm just playing a scenerio out in my mind...i've called enough stuff in now that i know it could happen....so i'm curious about it for other callers also...you think your just going out to call coyotes....but your not in this province....you can bring in a few predators that can kill you also....year round.

B

Blake,
While there are times where self defense is a true option, I dont think its worth worrying about as much as it seems you might. I think as long as you are responsible in your calling and your judgement, you wont have MANY problems. Shooting a cougar out of self defense is legal, but it shouldnt be used as an excuse because you couldnt identify the sex and it got too close to you. If you're calling, you have to expect the animal to be coming towards you. Now the split second decision is just to make whether the animal is coming to kill you, or just in search of a meal.....more often than not, I think it will be the latter.

I've called in grizzlies while calling coyotes to about 50 yards....I've let them come towards me, but made the right decisions and used judgement to allow them to continue on their way. I think if you're checking the quota, and only one sex is open in a certain area, you probably shouldnt be shooting any cougars at all while calling, unless they are barreling down towards you on a death charge, and they are close enough that you feel you cannot avoid an attack.

Sorry, just seemed your rationale was very vague....not sure if I read it right or not.....

I hear ya, each person probably has a different threshold and you'd like to think you'd do the right thing and do your best to identify yourself as human or quit calling and let the undesirable beast lose interest while you made your way out of the area etc. Personally i'd like to think i could hold my water for long enough to give a critter that isn't in my scope enough chances to survive. Many coyote callers have had physical contact with coyotes. Sitting in a bush and have had coyotes run around the bush and across their legs or even bite the first appendage that moves etc. And they are super paranoid and alot less confident than some of the bigger predators....just playing out scenerios and i wasn't really sure about self defense stuff or not. I'd like to think most of the time you'd have the time to do the right thing etc. but sometimes you might not.

Interesting about your grizzly incident...did you see it first and try it out to see if it would come? How did it react and how did you avoid confrontation. First time i've heard from someone who's run into a griz while doing this but always one of my concerns while calling in the spring and fall.

B

We were calling west of Sundre on the edge of a cutblock in early Spring....a large female grizz came into the cutblock after we started and walked across the cutline, towards us. We stopped calling and she got a bit nervous about what was going on when she got to 100 yards or so. She came a bit further and then angled away a bit....it was pretty neat to see for sure....

Wow man....that would be awesome. Can you imagine the types of scenerios you could get into with a critter like that though? Especially if your first sight of them was more like 30 yrds? Maybe wouldn't be a bad idea to carry some bearspray out there...and more gun lol. I'm starting to carry the handycam around my neck under the jacket so if i have encounters with critters that aren't on the target list i can pull it out to film. Got some great pics of lynx last year at 19 yrds but would have been even sweeter if i had the video cam then...the grizz would have been outstanding!

B

Ya having it on video would be amazing.....

To be 30 yards away from a grizz aint that bad.....It might have startled me more, but I've been closer to live grizz and would just enjoy the view..

Never have carried bear spray, but at the time we had a .222 and a 7 Rem Mag......I wasnt worried one bit....

No doubt, thats enough gun. I wonder if a grizz would ever come in as hard as we've had coyotes come in? If so, then to get surprised by humans?:eek ....i think that could lead to a pretty wild event. I dunno if it would ever happen like that but its got teeth and it can run fast so stands to reason. One thing i've learned with the predator calling is....expect the unexpected. Sounds like your having as much fun with it as we are...its so worth it when stuff like that happens.

B

Blake was out last week and came across a cougar kill while walking the track, something caught our eyes and there was a lynx eating on the deer, my still camera worked but the video came out with lines on it. At about 6 feet he growled at us like a barn cat!!
We treed the lion the next day!! Not big enough but lots of video!
Just to add to the other info generally the males Balls are more black and the females (whatever is politically correct) is more grey!!