F-35 Change of Mind

[markg]

I have changed my mind regarding Canada's purchase of the the F-35 I watched a series of videos about the planes and it seems they are more impressive then the media is leading us to believe. I dont think they are perfect.

We need some kind of new planes to replace the F-18 and it looks like the F-35 is the best choice
Here are the promo videos that present some interesting info

https://youtu.be/31oJIo8EVwY

https://youtu.be/LyHlp7tJrxY

https://youtu.be/ZtZNBkKdO5U

[260 Rem]

I think it's like cars ... no longer so much about the engine/tranny ....but rather the electronics package and how it can be upgraded to meet evolving technologies.

[HighlandHeart]

CBC already taught us that they are garbage planes because they only have one engine, can't beat an enemy zeppelin in a dogfight, and because Harper.

[Drewski Canuck]

The F 35 is supposed to be the front line stealth fighter / bomber to take out the radar and defences for the next wave.

All modern ordinance are GPS guided smart bombs or optically guided laser targeted bombs which have a huge standoff of 10's of kilometers.

Then there are the "cheap" drones to do the work of dispensable aircraft with no loss of life.

Do we need F 35's? Sure, get some, then get a next line aircraft like the F 18 super hornet for the tasks of patrol and air to air intercept at a cheaper price tag, then get some drones so we don't have to put pilots at risk in dangerous environments.

But really, it don't matter anyway, we can't afford the price tag to properly equip and defend our country anyway. Nor do we need to. It is highly unlikely that the US would ever let its northern neighbor be overrun by anyone else unless it wants to.

All the conflicts are in the middle east, and Canada just goes there to play with the Big Boys, and say that we are supporting the US / NATO / UN / and the sand pile that everyone else is fighting over.

This allows our politicians to crow on about being world leaders; contributing to human rights; fighting terrorism; a Place at the Table at high level meetings; and get the odd half hearted shrug from the rest of the world.

The point is, Canada cannot afford to play at these levels with the equipment, and the manpower in the numbers that is needed.

We blew 10's of millions in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and for what? The second we pull out these countries start to spiral into a bigger mess than they were in, in the first place.

Our first priority as World Citizens should be our own citizens. Think were we could be if we took that approach to world affairs.

Drewski

[markg]

This was eye opening as well. It seems there is alot more to 5th gen then stealth. Seems like information and systems become very valuable in modern warefare.

I really liked the way the Marine talked about the F22 and F35


https://youtu.be/QTgDTC8_PM0

[markg]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

The F 35 is supposed to be the front line stealth fighter / bomber to take out the radar and defences for the next wave.

All modern ordinance are GPS guided smart bombs or optically guided laser targeted bombs which have a huge standoff of 10's of kilometers.

Then there are the "cheap" drones to do the work of dispensable aircraft with no loss of life.

Do we need F 35's? Sure, get some, then get a next line aircraft like the F 18 super hornet for the tasks of patrol and air to air intercept at a cheaper price tag, then get some drones so we don't have to put pilots at risk in dangerous environments.

But really, it don't matter anyway, we can't afford the price tag to properly equip and defend our country anyway. Nor do we need to. It is highly unlikely that the US would ever let its northern neighbor be overrun by anyone else unless it wants to.

All the conflicts are in the middle east, and Canada just goes there to play with the Big Boys, and say that we are supporting the US / NATO / UN / and the sand pile that everyone else is fighting over.

This allows our politicians to crow on about being world leaders; contributing to human rights; fighting terrorism; a Place at the Table at high level meetings; and get the odd half hearted shrug from the rest of the world.

The point is, Canada cannot afford to play at these levels with the equipment, and the manpower in the numbers that is needed.

We blew 10's of millions in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and for what? The second we pull out these countries start to spiral into a bigger mess than they were in, in the first place.

Our first priority as World Citizens should be our own citizens. Think were we could be if we took that approach to world affairs.

Drewski

Very well put. It seems to be the case regardless of administrations both US and Canadian.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

The F 35 is supposed to be the front line stealth fighter / bomber to take out the radar and defences for the next wave.

All modern ordinance are GPS guided smart bombs or optically guided laser targeted bombs which have a huge standoff of 10's of kilometers.

Then there are the "cheap" drones to do the work of dispensable aircraft with no loss of life.

Do we need F 35's? Sure, get some, then get a next line aircraft like the F 18 super hornet for the tasks of patrol and air to air intercept at a cheaper price tag, then get some drones so we don't have to put pilots at risk in dangerous environments.

But really, it don't matter anyway, we can't afford the price tag to properly equip and defend our country anyway. Nor do we need to. It is highly unlikely that the US would ever let its northern neighbor be overrun by anyone else unless it wants to.

All the conflicts are in the middle east, and Canada just goes there to play with the Big Boys, and say that we are supporting the US / NATO / UN / and the sand pile that everyone else is fighting over.

This allows our politicians to crow on about being world leaders; contributing to human rights; fighting terrorism; a Place at the Table at high level meetings; and get the odd half hearted shrug from the rest of the world.

The point is, Canada cannot afford to play at these levels with the equipment, and the manpower in the numbers that is needed.

We blew 10's of millions in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and for what? The second we pull out these countries start to spiral into a bigger mess than they were in, in the first place.

Our first priority as World Citizens should be our own citizens. Think were we could be if we took that approach to world affairs.

Drewski

if the present Canadian liberal party insiders had a bit more foresight rather than their idiotic political correct thought patterns, they would have taken advantage of the close relationship between our country and the US. many of the parts needed for the F35 could have been manufactured here, and we could have gotten a sweetheart deal on the purchase of a small fleet of this new plane. no doubt they would be the export version, but they would still be an improvement over the aging F18. taking care of the citizens of this country means taking care of the security of the country.

[Marty S]

I'm all for F-35s but we really need to have about 300 minimum as we have a massive land base to defend and nothing else to do the job with. As we can only afford 60 F-35s, I vote we buy ourselves about 500 J-10s. Quantity instead of quality. We do need the quantity for this vast land.

$30 million vs $250 million per plane, 8 for the price of 1... 8 x 60= 480 planes instead of 60. Which option is going to get more done? Yes, I know, a whole army of mechanics to keep them all in the air... lotsa guys looking for a job these days.

Somebody, go tell Justin for me

[Bitumen Bullet]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

T...., we can't afford the price tag to properly equip and defend our country anyway. ..

Russia GDP, about 2 Trillion (1326.02 last yr but 2T yr before).
Canada GDP, about 2 Trillion. (1550 last yr but 1.8T yr before)

But we do need our myths, one of mine is that Canada could be more than a supplier of resources to Americans and was on our way to doing so. That we could be more than a little boy hiding behind his big brother, and was on our way to doing so. But I do not control the past so those are myths I'd like to ignore.

Independence is why Canada Confederated, to be not under the U.S. thumb, but posts like Drewski's, I think, describe well how most Canadians feel. Comfortable being little more than a protectorate, with none of the ambitions of Nationhood that created Canada.

Maybe even comfortable with doing away with such illusions as Nationhood and declare Canada supranational, it's people citizens of the world.

Might work, has never in the past, but if we can trust China, Russian and the USA to act peacefully and respect our choices Canada could lead the world into the future.

The age of Realpolitik could be over. Time will tell.

[silver]

It has been posted here that all the conflicts are in the middle east. They are for now.

China has said it deserves to have 1/6 of the arctic because it has 1/6 of the world population. They probably aren't going to take from the US or Russia, will probably go after one of the smaller countrys like Canada or the scandinavian countries. Take a look at how they are throwing their weight around in the seas close to their own country.

It is a mistake to gear up for the last conflict or even for the one going on now. People with insight will prepare for the next war, in whatever shape or form it takes.

[Y2K]

interesting

[markg]

Its a bit long but man it has a ton of information.

https://youtu.be/-HVY6Fdc2CM

[markg]

I am curious to hear what the Israeli air force has to say about the F-35. They have ordered and recieved several of the jets. Anyone on the forum heart anything?

[M.C. Gusto]

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.c...vs-gripen.html

[WillyOneStyle]

What about the other 5th gen fighters, are any of them available to Canada? I was under the impression that Japan had ordered F22s but the USA wouldn't sell those so Japan decided to build it's own. That could be false, I did read it on the internet.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.c...vs-gripen.html

A good comparison ^, and the Gripen does very well!

But I still favor the two engine Typhoon ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJeAjnADHD0

Mac

[Gray Wolf]

This from one of the F35 partners, Australia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbvggmVnOLo

[M.C. Gusto]

The website i linked above has tons of good reading and comparisons. When you look at the problems with this jet, read the plane geek forums, the massive expense, and the fact that the jet is actually worse in many areas than the jets of 40 years ago, the real question is how did the government decide on this jet? And dual engines should be a definite requirement for a jet that is needed to cover northern Canada.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto

The website i linked above has tons of good reading and comparisons. When you look at the problems with this jet, read the plane geek forums, the massive expense, and the fact that the jet is actually worse in many areas than the jets of 40 years ago, the real question is how did the government decide on this jet? And dual engines should be a definite requirement for a jet that is needed to cover northern Canada.

every aircraft ever built has had teething problems. just for example, the cranked wings on the F4 Phantom were necessary to correct a serious in flight instability issue. the F35's are in the development phase, so after the engineers get it sorted the assembly line will start up. you shouldn't believe everything you read on the blogs, and you need to realize that a lot of people make s**t up just for attention.

[M.C. Gusto]

The plane has been flying since 2006. The x35 which it is derived from has flown since 2001. It is not in the same ball park as the problems that the Phantom had. Here is one of many articles on some of the problems with the design
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-is-terrifying
Basically so much money has been piled into this plane it has "become to big to kill."
When you consider how meager Canadas defence budget is, the cost of the plane, the maintenance costs, and the fact that there are better and cheaper planes it just doesn't make sense.

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by barsik

if the present Canadian liberal party insiders had a bit more foresight rather than their idiotic political correct thought patterns, they would have taken advantage of the close relationship between our country and the US. many of the parts needed for the F35 could have been manufactured here, and we could have gotten a sweetheart deal on the purchase of a small fleet of this new plane. no doubt they would be the export version, but they would still be an improvement over the aging F18. taking care of the citizens of this country means taking care of the security of the country.

Check out the Saab. Better plane and many parts made right here in Canada.

[fargineyesore]

It is not stealthy. It cannot compete against stealthy aircraft unless it is within visual range, in the daylight.

Furthermore, if it goes into a zone with some of the sophisticated SAMs that the Russians have produced and sold to their allies, it will get shot out of the sky.

[markg]

So if its so horrible why would the Russian's (RT) care if it was so bad of a plane? WOuldnt they encourage countries to purchase it if they had the advantage over countries that used it?

https://youtu.be/UzZRBBlFlPE

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Marty S

I'm all for F-35s but we really need to have about 300 minimum as we have a massive land base to defend and nothing else to do the job with. As we can only afford 60 F-35s, I vote we buy ourselves about 500 J-10s. Quantity instead of quality. We do need the quantity for this vast land.

$30 million vs $250 million per plane, 8 for the price of 1... 8 x 60= 480 planes instead of 60. Which option is going to get more done? Yes, I know, a whole army of mechanics to keep them all in the air... lotsa guys looking for a job these days.

Somebody, go tell Justin for me

Gotta be a cheaper option, Bells and whistles might be nice, but no good if we can't afford the necessary numbers. Time we adopted the Russian motto, better it works than look pretty.

Grizz

[Roughneck12]

https://warisboring.com/the-f-35-is-...69b#.2998ba164

Excellent article.

[Roughneck12]

http://gizmodo.com/the-f-35-amazingl...oug-1791285476

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

It is not stealthy. It cannot compete against stealthy aircraft unless it is within visual range, in the daylight.

Furthermore, if it goes into a zone with some of the sophisticated SAMs that the Russians have produced and sold to their allies, it will get shot out of the sky.

2 in 10000 jets are shot down by SAMs according to the article above. Another reason we dont need a stealth jet.

[markg]

I found this interesting. It is a amagamation of several videos. The radar system on this plane seems pretty amazing.
Watching it take off an nite, well thats a dam impressive engine.

https://youtu.be/B6V1a4vB9eg

[ETOWNCANUCK]

What's really needed is a government willing to actually go through with an actual purchase,
As opposed to dragging it for years on end, wasting more money finding ways to not buy them in the first place.

Oh and we need stronger support from the public for our military.

[Jeron Kahyar]

Franz Kafka's works come to mind every time the F-35 procurement is mentioned.