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Old 07-29-2020, 09:43 AM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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Default Age structured hunts

Can't figure for the life of me why here in Alberta we do not have age structured hunts for bull elk.
They want to reduce the population so they create a season on bull elk to kill every bull except for spike bulls because thats all that is left after the season on bulls. Shoot 3 point and bigger. How dumb can our wildlife biologists be?
Why don't we issue a LIMITED NUMBER of tags for 3-4 point bulls, 5 point bulls and 6 point bulls. Shouldn't some of the more mature and smarter bulls have a chance to survive, grow and reproduce another day?
If they really want to reduce the population on elk issue more antler less tags and commence the season earlier. Not at the beginning of December and again in January.
I'm only a hunter and a landowner that cares about wildlife management.
If you get a chance tell a Wildlife Biologist that cares?
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:58 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Unfortunately, age and the number of points don't always equate. At 2-1/2 years, elk can have 3-6 points, so point restrictions don't really correlate to age restrictions.
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Old 07-29-2020, 10:06 AM
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Our bios have fully checked out when it comes to game management. i don't think it's from lack of care or science on their behalf. I believe that the government has cut all funding and all measures to enhance alberta's wildlife.

There is near zero done to enhance trophy quality or overall wildlife management.
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Old 07-29-2020, 10:25 AM
st99 st99 is offline
 
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The units I hunt are not affected by the 3 pts rule. There's tons of 5 and 6 pts on cam after the season. Not a lot of bulls over 300, but I don't care, meat in the freezer is more important than antlers on the wall. I seriously doubt that our elk population is influence by hunters, harsh winters and predators are way worse on them than we will ever be in our 3 months hunting season. Most big bulls on cam seem to vanish sometimes between december and february. (not meaning that they're gone to a wintering area, but meaning that they don't show up ever again comes spring/summer)
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Old 07-29-2020, 11:10 AM
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We do Have an age based point system on horn and antler structure. Problem with that being, as soon as an animal meets that criteria, hunting pressure takes him out of the gene pool. Without that , we'd be eliminating more of the younger animals. There is logic to having a limited, across the board , kill. The 6 point elk rule was controversial at one time and it was hunter input that raised it from 5 to 6.

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Old 07-29-2020, 11:43 AM
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Nuck brings up an interesting topic.

Forget about "trophies".
This is not about trophies.

Having mature animals within the population is well known to be very important to herd health. This is the concern at hand.

With this knowledge, I can't comprehend how three-point general seasons with minimal survival of bulls past this age class is acceptable to biologists.

Bull elk take 7-8 years to reach their physical and social peak.
Just like Bighorns....
In areas such as the SW foothills, a mature bull is a rarity.
Without question, hunting mortality is the main cause of bull mortality.
Lots of data to show this.

I am confused how the hunting community can accept that we are able to manage Elk herd health without concern to having a sufficient number of mature bulls while doing completely the opposite with Bighorn sheep.


I had a conversation with the prairie biologist discussing age structure of these small isolated herds. He was adamant that he would love to see a divided bull draw, one for young bulls and one for mature bulls. This way there would be an ability to manage cow/bull ratios, provide maximum harvest potential and maintain mature bulls for herd health. He was also adamant that he felt that F&W was just not ready to let this happen.


If the anti-hunting genetic harm advocates (compassionate wildlife management model) ever take control of wildlife management, you can expect Elk to be next on their list (after sheep) to eliminate the hunting of young bulls.
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Old 07-29-2020, 02:06 PM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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Thanks for your response Walking Buffalo. You are so correct.

Our local Wildlife Biologist tells me that they are interested in reducing the elk population.
They are not concerned about an age structured population of bull elk. However your idea make sense.
Nice way to blow me off.

Eating elk is great, but where is the science in this elk management. If you want to reduce the population issue more antler less tags.
Don't kill all of the breeding bulls.

The Biologists say they are listening to the landowners. Wish they would listen to the landowners that feed and house the elk.
I keep hearing these statements from the Biologists about surveys from landowners.

Is there are any landowners out there that have been surveyed in one form or another regarding hunting, I'd like to know.

Our family has never been surveyed. If the government was doing surveys they should have knocked on our door.
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Old 07-29-2020, 02:54 PM
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Prob is that you {OP}as a landowner are lucky enough to live in an area that has elk, but unlucky enough to be in the Elk are devastating my crop/bales/nursery/golf green,

You {OP} are one little voice advocating management as oppressed to numbers advocating there's too many. I think they also look at crop damage $ payout as a determining factor.

The foothill zones have few farms so fewer calls to say get rid of therm as well as more natural predators.

BTW I wish I had the either of those same problem's lol
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:47 PM
buckman buckman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck99 View Post
Can't figure for the life of me why here in Alberta we do not have age structured hunts for bull elk.
They want to reduce the population so they create a season on bull elk to kill every bull except for spike bulls because thats all that is left after the season on bulls. Shoot 3 point and bigger. How dumb can our wildlife biologists be?
Why don't we issue a LIMITED NUMBER of tags for 3-4 point bulls, 5 point bulls and 6 point bulls. Shouldn't some of the more mature and smarter bulls have a chance to survive, grow and reproduce another day?
If they really want to reduce the population on elk issue more antler less tags and commence the season earlier. Not at the beginning of December and again in January.
I'm only a hunter and a landowner that cares about wildlife management.
If you get a chance tell a Wildlife Biologist that cares?
I would agree that it would probably result in a more structured herd. However it would probably also result in a fair number of shot and left Bulls,
because of miss identification of points.

Elk on private land are offered some measure of protection by limited access form most landowners. Elk on public land without a draw very little as they are heavily hunted.

The draw system on public land for 6 point only,at least where I hunt has given rise to a fair number of large mature 5 pointers that will never get harvested by licensed hunters.

As for wildlife management, especially of Elk in the mountains and high foothills lets just say the predators take far more than the hunters. Until the wolf issue is addressed the numbers will continue to drop.
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Old 07-29-2020, 03:58 PM
buckman buckman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck99 View Post
Can't figure for the life of me why here in Alberta we do not have age structured hunts for bull elk.
They want to reduce the population so they create a season on bull elk to kill every bull except for spike bulls because thats all that is left after the season on bulls. Shoot 3 point and bigger. How dumb can our wildlife biologists be?
Why don't we issue a LIMITED NUMBER of tags for 3-4 point bulls, 5 point bulls and 6 point bulls. Shouldn't some of the more mature and smarter bulls have a chance to survive, grow and reproduce another day?
If they really want to reduce the population on elk issue more antler less tags and commence the season earlier. Not at the beginning of December and again in January.
I'm only a hunter and a landowner that cares about wildlife management.
If you get a chance tell a Wildlife Biologist that cares?
I would agree that it would probably result in a more structured herd. However it would probably also result in a fair number of shot and left Bulls,
because of miss identification of points.

Elk on private land are offered some measure of protection by limited access from most landowners. Elk on public land without a draw very little as they are heavily hunted.

The draw system on public land for 6 point only,at least where I hunt has given rise to a fair number of large mature 5 pointers that will never get harvested by licensed hunters.

As for wildlife management, especially of Elk in the mountains and high foothills lets just say the predators take far more than the hunters. Until the wolf issue is addressed the numbers will continue to drop.

Last edited by buckman; 07-29-2020 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 07-29-2020, 05:29 PM
TrapperMike TrapperMike is offline
 
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Buckman you make some good arguments, but I wouldn’t worry so much about the wolves as studies show that ravens kill more ungulate calves than all the other predators combined.
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Old 07-29-2020, 08:16 PM
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As long as the rifle season overlaps with the rut a lot of those young bulls are going to be vulnerable. It would be nice if rifle season started October 1, not in the peak of the rut. You would obviously still get a late rut opportunity. Maybe A draw that gets you started in the middle of September with any weapon.
Another idea could be if you have a general tag that goes infilled you could be eligible to get a undersubscribed cow tag. It Would allow trophy/meat hunters to leave the young bulls alone. This would be good if they gave you one for the zone you own land in.
I kill a bull every year hoping for a big one but sadly, there aren’t many around. So I usually settle for a smaller one at the end of November. I certainly don’t need another set of horns in the garage.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:15 AM
bucksman bucksman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck99 View Post
Can't figure for the life of me why here in Alberta we do not have age structured hunts for bull elk.
They want to reduce the population so they create a season on bull elk to kill every bull except for spike bulls because thats all that is left after the season on bulls. Shoot 3 point and bigger. How dumb can our wildlife biologists be?
Why don't we issue a LIMITED NUMBER of tags for 3-4 point bulls, 5 point bulls and 6 point bulls. Shouldn't some of the more mature and smarter bulls have a chance to survive, grow and reproduce another day?
If they really want to reduce the population on elk issue more antler less tags and commence the season earlier. Not at the beginning of December and again in January.
I'm only a hunter and a landowner that cares about wildlife management.
If you get a chance tell a Wildlife Biologist that cares?
How would issuing the antlerless tags earlier reduce the population?
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Old 07-30-2020, 12:29 PM
buckman buckman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TrapperMike View Post
Buckman you make some good arguments, but I wouldn’t worry so much about the wolves as studies show that ravens kill more ungulate calves than all the other predators combined.
Where was this study done?
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Old 07-30-2020, 12:51 PM
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Age structure based on point numbers does not work though. Many mature bulls will never be anything other than a 5x5. Similarily, many bulls will be a 6x6 at age 3. There is definitely no one size fits all when it comes to managing these herds. Alberta is just too vast and different from east to west and north to south. what works in the prairie zones likely wont work in the foothills. Add to the fact that they leave so many of the hunts until after the rut, many of the bigger bulls are no longer with the big herds and this makes them very tough to find. This in my opinion is the cause of so many raghorns being shot.
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Old 07-30-2020, 02:20 PM
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Part of the problem in Alberta is pressure on the few zones left that have a general season rut hunt.

I think scrapping the draws in the six point zones would spread the hunters out more and make for a far better hunt, and even the harvest of bulls. These zones have good escape terrain and Elk can elude hunters far better than many of the general areas.

Either that or put Elk on draw everywhere just like Moose and Most of the Mule deer zones. This may happen more anyway if the populations continue to decline on public land.
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:44 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Trapper Mike, I agree ravens take number of ungulate calves when first dropped by mother. However after few days they learn fast that ravens are not their friends. Mom is usually close and will not tolerate harassment of her calf. I know ravens sure raise hell with young song birds.
Lastly I still believe bears are main preditors for calves. the one grizz in Alaska killed ~40 in one spring hunt.
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
As long as the rifle season overlaps with the rut a lot of those young bulls are going to be vulnerable. It would be nice if rifle season started October 1, not in the peak of the rut. You would obviously still get a late rut opportunity. Maybe A draw that gets you started in the middle of September with any weapon.
Another idea could be if you have a general tag that goes infilled you could be eligible to get a undersubscribed cow tag. It Would allow trophy/meat hunters to leave the young bulls alone. This would be good if they gave you one for the zone you own land in.
I kill a bull every year hoping for a big one but sadly, there aren’t many around. So I usually settle for a smaller one at the end of November. I certainly don’t need another set of horns in the garage.
Call me crazy, but isn’t this exact thing the reason “there aren’t many around”?
I’m not telling you what to do or judging you for it, but if you (and everyone) isn’t willing to let the little ones walk, and maybe go home empty handed, then the animals won’t get to be mature, trophy class animals.
Elk meat is pretty great, and a successful hunt is always the goal... but unless people are willing to let them walk, they’ll never be 300+
If the biologists don’t manage them for what you/we want, then we’ve gotta do it ourselves.
That’s just my 2 cents. I’m no expert
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Old 07-31-2020, 06:12 PM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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How would issuing the antlerless tags earlier reduce the population?
My thought was to begin the antler less season earlier. Issue more tags if the goal is to reduce the population. Having a hunting season that commences September 1 and ends late January is just crazy.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuck99 View Post
Can't figure for the life of me why here in Alberta we do not have age structured hunts for bull elk.
They want to reduce the population so they create a season on bull elk to kill every bull except for spike bulls because thats all that is left after the season on bulls. Shoot 3 point and bigger. How dumb can our wildlife biologists be?
Why don't we issue a LIMITED NUMBER of tags for 3-4 point bulls, 5 point bulls and 6 point bulls. Shouldn't some of the more mature and smarter bulls have a chance to survive, grow and reproduce another day?
If they really want to reduce the population on elk issue more antler less tags and commence the season earlier. Not at the beginning of December and again in January.
I'm only a hunter and a landowner that cares about wildlife management.
If you get a chance tell a Wildlife Biologist that cares?
Point restrictions don’t work. This was tried with mulies here and elsewhere.

Wolves and g-bears (and more equals) are a massive problem in the hills. It’s very difficult to effect herd structure changes without being able to manage all sources of mortality, and there is no political will to do so.

Bios aren’t dumb. Some are very biased, but they know what they are doing

I agree with what you said about antlerless tags. Most of the complaints from landowners are elk wrecking hay stacks and bales in winter. Therefore a winter season theoretically helps push them off those properties. Of course trying to access those properties is a different story

Most hunters care about hunting opportunities and meat. Very few (even though they are very vocal) really care about antlers. So you won’t see much support for further limitations on opportunities. Most wildlife professionals are very aware of this fact.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:37 AM
TrapperMike TrapperMike is offline
 
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The study that I was referring to was done was part of a study done by the eastern slopes cattleman’s association. They were studying predation on cattle and this was a byproduct of the study. It was noticed that the ravens would work as a group to draw mom away and the would ripe open a hole just past the last rib and pull out the intestines, then wait for calf to die. This was even happening to calves a couple of weeks of age.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:41 AM
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3blade it would be nice if more hunters were after the meat. I trap on a farmers land who has lost his complete corn crop (that was to used to feed his cattle) to the elk. He has had numerous hunters (both archery and rifle) come hunt his land, but all are waiting for the big bulls that are in the vicinity. This doesn’t help him.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:48 PM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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I'm a landowner and a bow hunter. I've been hunting successfully since 1975 with bow and arrow. It's hard for me to understand why a hunter cannot pick and choose either a 6 point bull or 5 point bull and only shoot what they may have been drawn for.

Sure mistakes happen but how is this not different from trophy sheep hunting. The sheep is either legal or its not. A 6 point bull is either a 6 point or or its not. If you don't know what you're shooting, you don't shoot. If you error, you are subject to fine and seizure.

From the information I'm reading a number of people believe hunters in general are trigger happy and/or do not have the ability to count. Really are hunters in general that stupid when it comes to Elk?

Structured age hunts should work on a draw system.
Responsible hunting is what is called.
Maybe thats why so many of my neighbours hate hunters and won't allow access.
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuck99 View Post
I'm a landowner and a bow hunter. I've been hunting successfully since 1975 with bow and arrow. It's hard for me to understand why a hunter cannot pick and choose either a 6 point bull or 5 point bull and only shoot what they may have been drawn for.

Sure mistakes happen but how is this not different from trophy sheep hunting. The sheep is either legal or its not. A 6 point bull is either a 6 point or or its not. If you don't know what you're shooting, you don't shoot. If you error, you are subject to fine and seizure.

From the information I'm reading a number of people believe hunters in general are trigger happy and/or do not have the ability to count. Really are hunters in general that stupid when it comes to Elk?

Structured age hunts should work on a draw system.
Responsible hunting is what is called.
Maybe thats why so many of my neighbours hate hunters and won't allow access.
Wow, ok then

We get it, you want a 6 point rule and a shot at a bigger bull. You’re in luck, it’s actually available right this season! Spend your time in a 6 point mountain zone, you can hunt them every year on a general tag, for 3 whole months! What’s a little drive and gentle hike for such an accomplished hunter as yourself? I’d think you’d welcome the challenge.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:35 PM
35 whelen 35 whelen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TrapperMike View Post
3blade it would be nice if more hunters were after the meat. I trap on a farmers land who has lost his complete corn crop (that was to used to feed his cattle) to the elk. He has had numerous hunters (both archery and rifle) come hunt his land, but all are waiting for the big bulls that are in the vicinity. This doesn’t help him.
Then he should let other people hunt his land ,i know most of the guys i hunt with would take first 3 point bull they see.
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:59 AM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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Wow, ok then

We get it, you want a 6 point rule and a shot at a bigger bull. You’re in luck, it’s actually available right this season! Spend your time in a 6 point mountain zone, you can hunt them every year on a general tag, for 3 whole months! What’s a little drive and gentle hike for such an accomplished hunter as yourself? I’d think you’d welcome the challenge.
Hey 3blade and 35 Whelen, Sounds like you you guys have it all figured out.
You're the typical guys that hide behind their computer and bashes others.

Last edited by Nuck99; 08-10-2020 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SageValleyOutdoors View Post
Call me crazy, but isn’t this exact thing the reason “there aren’t many around”?
I’m not telling you what to do or judging you for it, but if you (and everyone) isn’t willing to let the little ones walk, and maybe go home empty handed, then the animals won’t get to be mature, trophy class animals.
Elk meat is pretty great, and a successful hunt is always the goal... but unless people are willing to let them walk, they’ll never be 300+
If the biologists don’t manage them for what you/we want, then we’ve gotta do it ourselves.
That’s just my 2 cents. I’m no expert
In my opinion, the majority of elk hunters in Alberta are hunting for meat and don’t really care too much about score. There is never going to be a strong push to manage for trophy quality when the average guy would rather shoot a small bull every year.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:53 PM
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Hey 3blade and 35 Whelen, Sounds like you you guys have it all figured out.
You're the typical guys that hide behind their computer and bashes others.
Why all the anger man? I pointed out that you have access to almost EXACTLY the management you want but it’s not good enough?...because it’s not out your back door?? or is it because it actually doesn’t work, you know it, and you’re really just trying to limit other hunters opportunity like so many landowners do

As for hiding behind my computer...post history bud. We can all see who’s who on here.
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:24 AM
Nuck99 Nuck99 is offline
 
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Why all the anger man? I pointed out that you have access to almost EXACTLY the management you want but it’s not good enough?...because it’s not out your back door?? or is it because it actually doesn’t work, you know it, and you’re really just trying to limit other hunters opportunity like so many landowners do

As for hiding behind my computer...post history bud. We can all see who’s who on here.
No, you're wrong. I allow hunting on my property.
I have 15 different hunters. I understand the importance of good hunters and friends. They are my eyes and ears.

This isn't about me. I have a big bull on my wall and do not need another one.

I had a herd of 70 elk on my land last year. Of the 70 animals, 5 were spike bulls.
It's a shame when there are no breeding animals left after the hunting season. I don't think that is good management.

Like I said in my earlier post, if they want to reduce the elk population, issue more antlerless tags.

I believe the harvest of bulls should be done on a limited basis. Issue a limited number of tags for 6 point bulls, issue a limited number of tags for 5 point bulls and issue a limited number of tags for all other bulls.
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:01 AM
35 whelen 35 whelen is offline
 
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Hey 3blade and 35 Whelen, Sounds like you you guys have it all figured out.
You're the typical guys that hide behind their computer and bashes others.
IM also a land owner in 521 , 1/4 of prime elk land and have trail cameras up all year ,i see quite a few big bulls after the season on my cameras ,they are there maybe the are just smarter then most hunters.
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