Turning 30-06 into 300 mag possible?

[shooter12]

I have been playing with my 30-06 rem 700 quite a bit recently ,using 200 gr Hornady ELD X and RL17 .
I could get 2800 +f.s with a pretty impressive accuracy .
The loads might possibly be a little bit over the SAAMI pressures limits (not much), but no common signs of pressure like flat primers, extractor marks on a case, hard bolt lift and such.
Went through 4 reloads with Federal cases and looks like can just keep going.
That velocity is getting very close to 300 wsm and 300 wm and on a par with 300 H@H.
Do you guys get this kind of velocity with another powders or RL 17 is the ticket for 30-06 and heavy bullets?

S12

[skidderman]

I use RL17 in my 300 wsm with 180 grain bullets. I don't know what to think. Nosler says max load is 66 grains. I started with 63.5 and got 3150 fps on 2 shots. It showed pressure signs so I backed off to 62.8 and now am at 62.0 for approx 2975 to 3000 fps. No pressure signs. Still don't know what to think. It certainly works. Killed an elk with it & it performed awesome. Not quite the accuracy I would like but close. To me it is a weird powder. I have such good luck with RL22 in my 06 that I would never want to change the load. Never tried RL17 in it.

[Tactical Lever]

You can get a bit over SAAMI with it as it has low pressure rating originally. You can figure by looking at the very similar cases offered in the same rifle that are higher pressure, that there is a bit of room to play.

If you are prudent.

[pat brennan]

I would be backing off given the velocity you are getting out of an 06. Nosler data shows mid/high 2600s as max for 200 grain loads.
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-da...6-springfield/

[elkhunter11]

The pressures being produced may be a lot higher than you suspect. Pressure signs such as resistance on bolt lift may not be obvious until pressures are way above normal.

[Beeman3]

At those speeds if it's very accurate I would keep the 06. My 300 Win Mag drives a 215 Berger a 3000 fps. If it's a tack driver why change guns for maybe 200 fps. My gun is a full custom which allows me to get those speeds. That 200 fps won't come cheap, but I totally understand wanting something different/new. It is possible to change your gun over, but again won't be cheap. Could have a gunsmith open up your bolt face, or you could buy a new PTG bolt and a new 9 twist barrel.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by pat brennan

I would be backing off given the velocity you are getting out of an 06. Nosler data shows mid/high 2600s as max for 200 grain loads.
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-da...6-springfield/

I used Nosler data actually for this load .
They don't give it for 200 gr with RL17 ,but for 210 gr 52.5 gives them 2601f.s.
I used it as a reference point and worked up to 55.3 and 200 gr eldx and it gives me 2800 f.s out of 24 inch barrel.
The temperature was always -5--10C
Looks pretty safe to me.
S12

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

At those speeds if it's very accurate I would keep the 06. My 300 Win Mag drives a 215 Berger a 3000 fps. If it's a tack driver why change guns for maybe 200 fps. My gun is a full custom which allows me to get those speeds. That 200 fps won't come cheap, but I totally understand wanting something different/new. It is possible to change your gun over, but again won't be cheap. Could have a gunsmith open up your bolt face, or you could buy a new PTG bolt and a new 9 twist barrel.

Yes, this came as a bit of surprize to me.
I was usually getting around 2600 f.s with 200 grainers and 4350 powders ,but it was Sierras and usually it was max loads.
Now 200 f.s more..
I was thinking maybe it was something to do with the jacket of ELD X that make it possible to push them faster?
Not sure here.
S12

[260 Rem]

Among the "pressure signs" you mentioned ... the only reliable indicator is velocity. Without sufficient pressure, it is highly unlikely you could get the higher than normal velocities you are reporting.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Among the "pressure signs" you mentioned ... the only reliable indicator is velocity. Without sufficient pressure, it is highly unlikely you could get the higher than normal velocities you are reporting.

FWIW , It appears you are generating about 67,000 psi to get 2800 MV with that bullet.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Among the "pressure signs" you mentioned ... the only reliable indicator is velocity. Without sufficient pressure, it is highly unlikely you could get the higher than normal velocities you are reporting.

Well, I don't think that my chrony is off , but will try to catch someone in club with another one to double check it.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by Salavee

FWIW , It appears you are generating about 67,000 psi to get 2800 MV with that bullet.

I am not sure about that one .
Nosler by some reason does not give a data for this powder and 200 gr bullets.
For 210 gr they give 52.5 as a max safe load.
Not trying to argue here , but can not see trade off of the 10 gr difference in a bullet weight for 2.8 gr in powder weight increase ( my load is 55.3) to boost it an extra 7000psi.
Maybe I am wrong ,but just can not see it.
S12

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by shooter12

I am not sure about that one .
Nosler by some reason does not give a data for this powder and 200 gr bullets.
For 210 gr they give 52.5 as a max safe load.
Not trying to argue here , but can not see trade off of the 10 gr difference in a bullet weight for 2.8 gr in powder weight increase ( my load is 55.3) to boost it an extra 7000psi.
Maybe I am wrong ,but just can not see it.
S12

The pressure vs powder charge, is not necessarily uniform, once pressures near the upper limits, each increase in powder can result in a greater increase in pressure. 2.8gr of powder could easily result in an increase of 7000psi or more. You could easily be pushing 70,000psi

[Salavee]

[QUOTE=shooter12;3743563]I am not sure about that one .
Nosler by some reason does not give a data for this powder and 200 gr bullets.
For 210 gr they give 52.5 as a max safe load.
Not trying to argue here , but can not see trade off of the 10 gr difference in a bullet weight for 2.8 gr in powder weight increase ( my load is 55.3) to boost it an extra 7000psi.
Maybe I am wrong ,but just can not see it.

That's part of the fun lol. I don't think it was an accident that Quickload showed an RL-17 charge weight of 55.4 gr at a COL of 3.340 to achieve the 2800 velocity and the 67000 + psi pressure as indicated previously.
Max average pressure for that cartridge is 60,000.

[260 Rem]

All I ask is that anyone discharging a load that is 7000 psi over “normal”, choose a bench at least 30M from the the one I am shooting from

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by Salavee

That's part of the fun lol. I don't think it was an accident that Quickload showed an RL-17 charge weight of 55.4 gr at a COL of 3.340 to achieve the 2800 velocity and the 67000 + psi pressure as indicated previously.
Max average pressure for that cartridge is 60,000.

Yup, I show just a hair under 68k psi, which is about 8k over SAAMI, and a good 3k over my max comfort level with a modern, strong bolt action. I can't see primer pockets, case heads, or barrels lasting long at 68k.

[32-40win]

And if these guys are getting Quickload to show 67-68,000, you can bet you have some rounds possibly hitting as much as 5-10% higher than that once in a while. The MAP SAAMI rating allows for that, what you are doing is on the upper end of the MAP, and is very probably going a ways over it. Shooting at -5 to -10C and then shooting it the summer at 20C or more, may well result in a noticeable issue with it.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Salavee

FWIW , It appears you are generating about 67,000 psi to get 2800 MV with that bullet.

The above projection was @ 70 deg F

At 5 deg F QL shows 59148 psi for 2597 fps. This explains why you were not seeing any pressure signs at 55.3 grs but it doesn't explain the indicated 2800 MV. I used to have unreliable chrony readings at colder temps so maybe another go-round is in order, but not with the same load. lol

[shooter12]

Thanks guys for your comments!
I will consider what you've recommended here.
Should someone have any more info on this combo just throw it in in here .
I 've been using IMR4350,4451,H4350 in 30-06 , Wihtavuori 550for many years and usually it was a very clear signs of high pressure if an extra grain or two was added to the max load.
This rl17 does not show it at all.
In fact in Alliant website they list 51.5 gr as a max for 200 gr bullet, but they don't specify the pressure.
I had a very similar situation in the past with 308 win and 178 gr A MAXs , could push them around 150 f.s faster then recommended .I think it was due to their somewhat thinner jackets.
S12

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

The above projection was @ 70 deg F

At 5 deg F QL shows 59,148 psi for 2589 fps. This explains why you were not seeing any pressure signs at 53.3 grs but it doesn't explain the indicated 2800 MV. I used to have unreliable chrony readings at colder temps so maybe another go-round is in order, but not with the same load. lol

He could have a smaller than normal chamber, or a hotter than normal lot of powder. I put more faith in chronograph readings than in calculations with no data to validate them.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by Salavee

The above projection was @ 70 deg F

At 5 deg F QL shows 59,148 psi for 2589 fps. This explains why you were not seeing any pressure signs at 53.3 grs but it doesn't explain the indicated 2800 MV. I used to have unreliable chrony readings at colder temps so maybe another go-round is in order, but not with the same load. lol

I will definitely check the velocity in a week or two in Rosebud Silhuette club and will back down to 53.5gr .It has another sweet spot there.
Will update it when have a chance.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

He could have a smaller than normal chamber, or a hotter than normal lot of powder. I put more faith in chronograph readings than in calculations with no data to verify them.

The chamber on this Rem is indeed very tight.
I have another 2 30-06 in Tikka and Parker Hale and once fired case from Parker would not feed through this Rem until Full sized.
Tikka is a bit better but still not as tight as this Rem.
Thanks for brining this up.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

He could have a smaller than normal chamber, or a hotter than normal lot of powder. I put more faith in chronograph readings than in calculations with no data to validate them.

His load data was verified by himself and the MV by chronograph . Put your faith where you want to .It sounds like you have a better method of verifying and projecting ballistics data than Quickload. Good on you .. but I'm thinking not .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

His load data was verified by himself and the MV by chronograph . Put your faith where you want to .It sounds like you have a better method of verifying and projecting ballistics data than Quickload. Good on you .. but I'm thinking not .

If his chronograph readings matched your calculated velocity, I would consider your calculation to be validated, but they don't, so I choose to believe actual readings over a theoretical calculation with zero validation. The fact that the rifle apparently has a small chamber also explains why the velocity may be higher than your calculation predicts.

[Moosetalker]

I have a tight chamber 30-06 as well it also wants full resized cases have not tried R17 but this gun loves 103% compressed load of R22 with a 168 grn Barnes XB T shock 22" barrel gives me a sub 3/4" group. Cheap chrono showed 2890-2910 fps.
book says can go 106% but no room for that much powder plus long shank of Barnes seated just off the lands.

That said R22 behind the same Barnes bullet in my .300 WM Sendero 26" barrel is showing sign's of over pressure at 4 grains over min start load. I pulled the bullets and weighed powder again just to make sure I didn't miss label powder charge weight

However this gun absolutely loves H1000 Powder max load giving 5/8" 3170 fps with no sign of over pressure.

Just goes to show a person has to always start at the min start weight for safety's sake.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If his chronograph readings matched your calculated velocity, I would consider your calculation to be validated, but they don't, so I choose to believe actual readings over a theoretical calculation with zero validation. The fact that the rifle apparently has a small chamber also explains why the velocity may be higher than your calculation predicts.

Whatever you say Elk. The FACT that the rifle APPARENTLY has a small chamber needs to be validated. Like I said, you can choose whatever you wish. I'll stay with QL any day. As to the possibility of a small chamber ? .. doubtful. As to an odd powder lot showing 200 fps variation at 5 deg F ? .. very doubtfull. Elk grasping at straws ... very probable.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Whatever you say Elk. The FACT that the rifle APPARENTLY has a small chamber needs to be validated. Like I said, you can choose whatever you wish. I'll stay with QL any day. As to the possibility of a small chamber ? .. doubtful. As to an odd powder lot showing 200 fps variation at 5 deg F ? .. very doubtfull. Elk grasping at straws ... very probable.

When the chronograph reading and your calculated velocity differ by 200fps, and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the chroñograph, I will choose to believe the chronograph, until the chronograph is proven to be in error.. I guess I just prefer to believe actual readings rather than theory. As to Quickload, it can't compensate for chamber variations, or variations in powder lots, so I choose to validate the calculations with chronograph readings before accepting them as accurate. If you are going to blindly accept Quickload velocities as being accurate, why even bother owning a chronograph? Why would the ammunition manufacturers and the people producing load data bother with specialized pressure measuring equipment, and chronographs, if Quickload is always accurate?

[Dubious]

I say run it, if your comfortable with it and if you want to keep that load in your pocket while you explore higher velocities then do it. ive done a bit of wildcatting chasing velocity and it always had its consequences, barrel life always seems to be the first victim. just remember its the skilled hand loaders job to interprit the results of his creations and adjust.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When the chronograph reading and your calculated velocity differ by 200fps, and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the chroñograph, I will choose to believe the chronograph, until the chronograph is proven to be in error.. I guess I just prefer to believe actual readings rather than theory. As to Quickload, it can't compensate for chamber variations, or variations in powder lots, so I choose to validate the calculations with chronograph readings before accepting them as accurate. If you are going to blindly accept Quickload velocities as being accurate, why even bother owning a chronograph? Why would the ammunition manufacturers and the people producing load data bother with specialized pressure measuring equipment, and chronographs, if Quickload is always accurate?

As far as QL is concerned, it will only provide a projection . Individual powder burn rates and resulting pressures have to be adjusted to an individual cartridge and rifle according to chronograph results. Without those readings we get a projection based on default values. Once a powder burn rate adjusted to chronograph results the projections from that point forward are extremely accurate for that rifle and cartridge combination.
In this case the velocity and pressure projections were by default based on the info provided by the OP resulting in estimated very high pressure. Close enough to actual pressure to warrant caution, regardless of what you might think.
Obviously, you don't use or understand QL, but you will blindly accept chronograph readings (optical I assume) at cold temperatures and a possible low battery. So give it a break Elk. You're preaching to the Choir..again. How, why and the way you do things means Dick to me. Try someone else.

[ForwardBias]

Haha a 06 that equals the WM.