Big Game Rifles

[Pathfinder76]

This ought to offend most. Laughing.

http://www.africahunting.com/threads...ncy-exam.2604/

[Bergerboy]

Read that....2lb hammers and beating rifles on rocks? Either this guy is an idiot or I know a lot less about rifles than I think.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Read that....2lb hammers and beating rifles on rocks? Either this guy is an idiot or I know a lot less about rifles than I think.

He is far from an idiot nor is he a casual observer at these events.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by chuck

He is far from an idiot nor is he a casual observer at these events.

That narrows it down to me being the clueless one. I have never seen this many problems with rifles as he mentions. I toss about 1k of center fire down range a year and this doesn't happen. Maybe its due to the extra stresses of the dangerous game cartridges that causes these mechanical manifestations. I do find it interesting that you find this gentleman "far from an idiot" when he says stuff like this "It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions." and this little gem "The Browning A Bolt. The Jury is still out on this as there are very few around at present and all the ones I've seen have been left handed models. One out of two had a problem with the magazine. Beating the floor plate back down with a rock is nearly as much fun as taking a hammer to a Weatherby. "
This seems to be a strange approach and sounds like something teenagers say to impress their friends.
Now after careful scrutiny about myself or this fellow being the idiot, and your confirmation that this guy is "far from an idiot", maybe you should take some time reflecting on your own knowledge.
Have a good weekend and tape up that knuckle before shooting other peoples rifles Charles!

[Pathfinder76]

I knew someone would be offended. Vahemiantly so. A quick google search for "Don Heath" or "Ganyana" we provide all the information you need. But this guy is not an idiot. Here is what I found in one minute.

"I'll just add that Don Heath has earned the right to his opinions. He's not only a highly trained wildlife biologist who's worked in the field, but has served extensively as a PH and as a teacher in Zimbabwe's highly-respected PH school. In fact as I recall he was head of the school for many years, and is now a contultant for a major ammo and bullet company, among many things. Between his guiding and some of the necessary culling of big game done by the Zimbabwe game department, his experience is vast, and his perspective interesting, since it also includes considerable original research into the history of African hunting. His comments in the article are also on African safari hunters, not anything else.

If some American hunter has different opinions, why that's their obvious right. But anybody who finds "Ganyana's" writing substandard or irrelevant is obviously not interested in anything beyond their own limited perspective, but that's true of not only many hunters but many humans."
-John Barsness

[Pathfinder76]

Now do you see why he takes pleasure in pounding open garbage with hammers? Laughing.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Have a good weekend and tape up that knuckle before shooting other peoples rifles Charles!

Other peoples rifles? Your funny.

[TBD]

nothing about sako though ....

[wwbirds]

Cant remember which magazine but also had nothing good to say about American made dangerous game rifles but in the previous article the writer was not even kind to CZ as he felt they had deteriorated from the quality of the old PH standby of BRNO ZKK 602 in 375 H & H.
Been casually looking for one ever since just in case I ever get to Africa

[Bergerboy]

I wonder if these issues are only common with the dangerous game cartridges?

[6.5swedeforelk]

I like Heath's use of a 2lb sledge to convey a lasting message perhaps along these lines...

In this land that is hotter than the Americas, where rough travel may further break down powder granules,
with the fine sand that may not be cleaned from actions every nite-

this rifle that your life may depend upon has a bit of a problem!

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I wonder if these issues are only common with the dangerous game cartridges?

Nope. Take just about any modern out of the box rifle fill it full of shells in a panic loading, firing and slamming shells through it as fast as you can and most will screw up. Sure they work fine at the range and most hunting situations we here are used to when we work them at a relaxed pace and load the magazine correctly every time, but most will malfunction pretty easily in a situation where your trying to stop a Charging dangerous game animal with sheer rapid fire of multiple rounds trying to knock it down before it gets to you

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Nope. Take just about any modern out of the box rifle fill it full of shells in a panic loading, firing and slamming shells through it as fast as you can and most will screw up. Sure they work fine at the range and most hunting situations we here are used to when we work them at a relaxed pace and load the magazine correctly every time, but most will malfunction pretty easily in a situation where your trying to stop a Charging dangerous game animal with sheer rapid fire of multiple rounds trying to knock it down before it gets to you

Sounds plausible, I can go with this.

[Pathfinder76]

Most people will never work a bolt action smartly enough to ever find out. I'll post a picture of some dummies that are heading to the gunsmith that is putting together a 338 win mag for me.

[Pathfinder76]

This is not because I intend to use my bullets backwards.

[Deer Hunter]

Interesting conversation.
So this expert figures that 90% of the DG rifles on the planet are not adequate or sub standard for PH use in Africa? Ok.
And then you potentially connect the fact that if a PH shouldn't/doesn't use one, the hunter should consider why, in case he has to work the action "smartly".
Operating a DG gun smartly, to me, has nothing to do "sheer rapid fire of multiple rounds".

And then what does the 338 Win rounds have to do with a DG rifle?

[HowSwedeItIs]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Interesting conversation.
So this expert figures that 90% of the DG rifles on the planet are not adequate or sub standard for PH use in Africa? Ok.
And then you potentially connect the fact that if a PH shouldn't/doesn't use one, the hunter should consider why, in case he has to work the action "smartly".
Operating a DG gun smartly, to me, has nothing to do "sheer rapid fire of multiple rounds".

And then what does the 338 Win rounds have to do with a DG rifle?

Well being able to quickly put a few rounds down range as accurately as you can comes into it, yes. You can't do that if you double feed your rifle and it jams(in a stressful situation you might not pull the bolt back all the way) or if the casing doesn't eject properly. I think what Mr. Heath is saying is that these push feed actions that are dominating the North American market right now are inadequate for dangerous game because of those reasons, look at the rifles that scored okay in his books. The claw extractor on the Mauser and M70 will manhandle that cartridge and make everything run that much more smoothly for when you need to pop off a few shots.

[Bushrat]

I think it's more about forgiveness of function of the action, the operator can do more things wrong in a panic and the thing will still function properly.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I think it's more about forgiveness of function of the action, the operator can do more things wrong in a panic and the thing will still function properly.

Maybe some practice rapid firing whilst operating the bolt in a heavy manner will expose any problems with ones rifle and technique while creating good muscle memory that can be relied upon when the time comes. If that doesn't work there is always the hammer and rock beating that Chuck feels is the goto move.

[Deer Hunter]

Having a gun that you can shoot once as accurately possible, on command, is nearly the entire hunters job summed up in a dangerous game hunt. If you think you and the PH are going to walk side by side on the trail of a wounded buffalo or leopard, think again. Most times, the hunter is more a liability than an asset when things have gone wrong imo.
Having a iron sighted mauser is no doubt a good PH weapon. But I don't think that translates into everyone owning a big bore CZ going to Africa on DG hunt.

Forgiveness of action, forgiveness of the bullet type in the action... more of the ability of the operator in any case.

Given any long action rifle CRF or not, how much easier will a round nose bullet cycle compared to a TSX?

[Hat in the Cat]

What a joke. To say that a rifle will fail to function past 8 rounds due to the soaring temperature of 33-40 degrees Celsius is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the temperatures created in the chamber are so high that the ambient air temperature do not even come in to play (at least not at that level).

Seems like some chest beating and trying to shame rifles from companies that don't donate for his cause.

I guess he forgot that it gets hotter in Arizona where people have no doubt shot as fast as they could at some point and never mentioned all the failures online.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Hat in the Cat

What a joke. To say that a rifle will fail to function past 8 rounds due to the soaring temperature of 33-40 degrees Celsius is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the temperatures created in the chamber are so high that the ambient air temperature do not even come in to play (at least not at that level).

Seems like some chest beating and trying to shame rifles from companies that don't donate for his cause.

I guess he forgot that it gets hotter in Arizona where people have no doubt shot as fast as they could at some point and never mentioned all the failures online.

X2
The 8th round thing is pretty funny as by that time you have been eaten/stomped/smeared by said animal. This probably the reason why double rifles are the standard for dangerous game.

[DaleJ]

If Shaftesbury Trail is ever over run with elephants I now know my old Brno 602 416 Rigby will save my arse. I was once charged by a squirrel and my Remington M 700 worked perfectly.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

If Shaftesbury Trail is ever over run with elephants I now know my old Brno 602 416 Rigby will save my arse. I was once charged by a squirrel and my Remington M 700 worked perfectly.

Yeah but think about this Dale, what if you only wounded that squirrel and your gun jammed after the 8th missed shot from the heat of the Peace River summer and you were stupid enough not to down load your ammo. You had to beat your bolt open with a 2lb hammer that every PH always has then you reloaded. When you reloaded you accidentally hit the floor plate release but chose to beat it closed with a rock instead of pushing with you fingers. Better ditch that Remmy man....ALL HAIL CHUCK!

[Twisted Canuck]

Pardon my ignorance, as I've never been on safari and know very little about DG hunting, but what would be the practicality of using a 12 g with 3.5" Magnum (premium) slugs? Either a pump or semi? Would that be inadequate for DG in Africa? I'd sure trust that more for function than a bolt gun personally. Is 4700 f/lbs of energy not adequate?

And thanks in advance for not tearing me a new one for asking a 'dumb' question, I'd really like a knowledgeable answer from someone on the topic.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Pardon my ignorance, as I've never been on safari and know very little about DG hunting, but what would be the practicality of using a 12 g with 3.5" Magnum (premium) slugs? Either a pump or semi? Would that be inadequate for DG in Africa? I'd sure trust that more for function than a bolt gun personally. Is 2500 f/lbs of energy not adequate?

And thanks in advance for not tearing me a new one for asking a 'dumb' question, I'd really like a knowledgeable answer from someone on the topic.

Most African hunting specs the minimum cartridge a 375HH that makes a minimum of 4300 f/lbs energy. A couple of my buddies do a yearly African hunting trip and take their 375's for show but actually only hunt with their 300 winmags for the smaller stuff. Hope this answers you.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Most African hunting specs the minimum cartridge a 375HH that makes a minimum of 4300 f/lbs energy. A couple of my buddies do a yearly African hunting trip and take their 375's for show but actually only hunt with their 300 winmags for the smaller stuff. Hope this answers you.

Yeah, I messed up and corrected the energy, but you were too quick! Actually 4700+ with these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/523...-slug-box-of-5

So would that cover the bases effectively, or still not good?

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Yeah, I messed up and corrected the energy, but you were too quick! Actually 4700+ with these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/523...-slug-box-of-5

So would that cover the bases effectively, or still not good?

That is a rockstar of a shot shell. This is out of my area of knowledge. Someone else will chime in who has better intel.

[Pathfinder76]

It's as if you told them their first born was rather homely looking.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Most African hunting specs the minimum cartridge a 375HH that makes a minimum of 4300 f/lbs energy. A couple of my buddies do a yearly African hunting trip and take their 375's for show but actually only hunt with their 300 winmags for the smaller stuff. Hope this answers you.

Your buddies pack an extra rifle half way around the world for "show"?