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Old 04-06-2020, 04:55 PM
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EZM EZM is offline
 
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Default Clean Bore ..... where's the first shot go?

This has the potential to be the silliest post of all time, and forgive me, as I'm not joe sniper, but I noticed something that precipitates a serious question....

After cleaning your rifle, does the first shot follow a consistent pattern (POI) on most rifles?

The reason I ask, and maybe it's fluke, one of my guns throws the first clean cold bore shot almost always at 1 to 3 o'clock about 1" off @ 100m.

Logic would tell me this is an anomaly or fluke.

Seems to happen almost every-time (like 75% or higher) since I started watching it - in like 10-12 cleanings I'd say.

It settles in after that and I'm finding after 2-3 more shots it seems to do very well for consistency from there on .....

is this normal or just a fluke .... I have been shooting and hunting for 35 years, and shoot a fair amount - but this is the first time (first gun) I've noticed it on.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:52 PM
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Don’t think there’s a rule from which to predict results as IME it seems depend on the barrel. I’ve had barrels where the cold/clean round falls a bit outside of the group that follows ... and others that keep piling them into the same group. I think there are other factors that need attention to determine if they are also contributing factors. From oil in the bore to the way the rifle sits in the bags after that first shot.
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Old 04-06-2020, 07:17 PM
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Some rifles it donít matter.
Some rifles itís a bit off.
Other rifles might take a round or three to get things back and humming.

Practice makes perfect, and perfect practice reveals all.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:19 AM
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My 270 is like this consistently. Min 1-2" off at 100yrds for the first two shots after cleaning and then its good to go.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:32 AM
colroggal colroggal is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
My 270 is like this consistently. Min 1-2" off at 100yrds for the first two shots after cleaning and then its good to go.
Myself, I almost never scrub a bore absolutely clean. A soppy patch or to of butch's and a nylon brush, followed by some Hoppe's and a dry patch. It's clean and oiled and stayed in the ballpark. As a result my first shots rarely differ from the next 20.

The exception being .17 and some .22 cal barrels. I like to get them spotless.

Colin
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Old 04-07-2020, 08:29 AM
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from recollection always a little high, left or right, often won't even put the first one on paper, the ditch works
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:12 AM
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from recollection always a little high, left or right, often won't even put the first one on paper, the ditch works
Wonít even hit the paper?
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:31 AM
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Wonít even hit the paper?
Reading the words following, I'd suspect a "fouling" shot, taken in a safe direction, not shot at the eventual end target. Like putting a round into the berm behind the board before trying for a group.
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottmisfits View Post
Reading the words following, I'd suspect a "fouling" shot, taken in a safe direction, not shot at the eventual end target. Like putting a round into the berm behind the board before trying for a group.
Yes, that makes more sense.
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Old 04-07-2020, 10:04 AM
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The barrel is where most of your accuracy comes from. What I believe confuses alot of shooters/hunters is when we talk about cleaning regiments and accuracy when competition grade barrels and factory barrels have different characteristics. In a match grade barrel, clean shoots better. in a factory barrels accuracy can be best after some fouling is put in it. I find this is especially true when talking about seating depths. We can talk about seating to the lands and having the throat that works for that, but in a factory rifle, the troats is so long that it's usually not even an option. one thing i've found for that cold bore shot precision is a bit of EEZOX in there. a wet patch followed by a dry patch. then shoot. it's kept my cold bore shot right in the group. I always hunt with a fouled barrel. (maybe 5 shots down the tube?) and don't clean it till hunting season is over. And that's with a competition grade barrel. There are anomalies to this of course. I have a pre-war M70 in .270 that likes a squeaky clean barrel.
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Old 04-07-2020, 11:47 AM
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Two ideas for interest.

Put up one target for the first round and then save that target for the next range trip. Keep using that target for the first shot on each trip to the range. See if you get a group.

Try several dry fires prior to shooting for group. This might indicate if it is a cold barrel or cold shooter issue.

If you try these please let us know the results.
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FXSB View Post
Two ideas for interest.

Put up one target for the first round and then save that target for the next range trip. Keep using that target for the first shot on each trip to the range. See if you get a group.

Try several dry fires prior to shooting for group. This might indicate if it is a cold barrel or cold shooter issue.

If you try these please let us know the results.
I use my log book for that
Cat
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Wonít even hit the paper?
it would, usually within a couple inches of poi, i will purposely put it in the dirt somewhere safe rather than make the ugly hole on paper
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:22 PM
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To me the first shot is important data
Clean cold bore and cold bore
Some say itís just the shooter some say itís the rifle
If itís consistently hitting a different point of impact
Thatís something I want to know
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:52 PM
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When I would sight my 7mm rem mag in, first shot from a clean bore was mostly to the left of my desired target at the correct at the correct elevation. Shots 2 and 3 were where they were intended to be.

BW
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Old 04-07-2020, 04:04 PM
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I used to just pop a primer in my muzzleloader as a fouler before loading the first round.

I wonder if you could just load up a primer in a case (no projectile at all) and shoot that before hunting after a cleaning. It would be quieter obviously then a normal round fouler before a hunt.
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by freeride View Post
I used to just pop a primer in my muzzleloader as a fouler before loading the first round.

I wonder if you could just load up a primer in a case (no projectile at all) and shoot that before hunting after a cleaning. It would be quieter obviously then a normal round fouler before a hunt.
If there's no bullet running through, how do you get the copper fouling?

Just curious, I'm not an expert .... but that's what I'm thinking of when I think of fouling.
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Old 04-07-2020, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
If there's no bullet running through, how do you get the copper fouling?

Just curious, I'm not an expert .... but that's what I'm thinking of when I think of fouling.
Itís simple.... if you are hunting, donít go afield with a rifle that isnít somewhat fouled, and donít be treating the barrel with lube. Tape or muzzle condoms are a necessity.
In a range setting know how your rifle behaves and either go into matchís fouled or through practicing and observing shoot to your observations.
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Last edited by Dick284; 04-07-2020 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 04-07-2020, 06:53 PM
freeride freeride is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
If there's no bullet running through, how do you get the copper fouling?

Just curious, I'm not an expert .... but that's what I'm thinking of when I think of fouling.
It wouldnt be copper fouling at all, rather it just helps blows out any extra oils from cleaning. Even running a dry patch down will leave a very small amount of oil in the barrel for the first shot.

Anyways just something you could try and see if it helps get rid of that first flyer. It worked for my muzzleloader.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
Itís simple.... if you are hunting, donít go afield with a rifle that isnít somewhat fouled, and donít be treating the barrel with lube. Tape or muzzle condoms are a necessity.
In a range setting know how your rifle behaves and either go into matchís fouled or through practicing and observing shoot to your observations.
Agreed, yes that's how I treat any hunting rifles, leaving them fouled for use for hunting and definitely use a little painters tape to avoid moisture or anything entering barrel.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:36 PM
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This sounds like another good experiment. Can I shoot an animal, or vital zone sized target, with a clean protected bore? Out to say, oh, 500 yards. With tape over the muzzle.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
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This sounds like another good experiment. Can I shoot an animal, or vital zone sized target, with a clean protected bore? Out to say, oh, 500 yards. With tape over the muzzle.
Myth buster material right there.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Myth buster material right there.
Oh, is it ever. Epic stuff.
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:09 PM
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When working for our national police force we were installing suppressors on specific rifles . The suppressed rifles with a certain brand of suppressor would shoot the first shot out at least 4-6 inches at 100 yards after the first shot everything rezeroed and shot fine . Every rifle with that brand suppressor was the same .
We got rid of those and went we a different suppressor and no issues . Go figure we never could come up with a reason Things that make you go hhmmmmm
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Agreed, yes that's how I treat any hunting rifles, leaving them fouled for use for hunting and definitely use a little painters tape to avoid moisture or anything entering barrel.
Iíll add that in the rarer instance where any sort of a longer shot(>300m) would or could be contemplated, youíd obviously lose the tape, before attempting such a shot.
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:23 PM
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The vast majority of my big game animals were killed with a clean, taped barrel. The exception would be pack in, or fly in multi species hunts. I test each rifle with a clean barrel, and very rarely do I see a significant difference in point of impact .
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
Iíll add that in the rarer instance where any sort of a longer shot(>300m) would or could be contemplated, youíd obviously lose the tape, before attempting such a shot.
Good point. I have, when sitting or still hunting, rolled the tape over to one side, or taken it off completely. Never was too sure if this mattered or not, but just felt better about doing it.

As I get up to move, or if it's raining or snowing, it stays or goes back over.
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM View Post
Good point. I have, when sitting or still hunting, rolled the tape over to one side, or taken it off completely. Never was too sure if this mattered or not, but just felt better about doing it.

As I get up to move, or if it's raining or snowing, it stays or goes back over.
A friend tried it at the range (100yds) It made no difference on his 300 win mag
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:56 PM
David Henry David Henry is offline
 
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I owned a very frustrating rifle many years ago that had an issue with the first or fouling shot down a clean barrel. It was a Sharps 1874 from Big Timber MT, one of the long range express rifles in 45-90.
It would consistently put the first bullet through the paper 6" high and to the left of center at 100 yds, after that it was dead on, remarkably accurate and stayed that way until I got home to clean it after shooting. On the advise of an old and wise local barrel maker who had seen this before, I cut and recrowned behind the front sight dove tail losing about 2 inches of the 34 inch barrel.
This solved the problem, but to this day I don't know why. Visual inspection of the inside of that bore showed no irregularity and it was uniform in all respects. So in conclusion I guess I learned something but don't ask me what it was. David.
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Old 04-09-2020, 09:37 PM
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Never really paid attention to what a clean barrel did with the first shot, for hunting I always use a fouled barrel with 3 shots out of it at the beginning of the season, tape the muzzle and go hunting. My 32-40 used to have be held at the top of the target to hit the bottom on the first shot, second shot I could hold on the bull and hit a bit low, third shot would be good, that was cast bullets at 200 yds though. Just had to warm up the barrel a bit.
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