Once In A Lifetime Draws in Montana?

[tracker]

Montana proposal to make some tags a once in a lifetime draw.


https://helenair.com/news/state-and-...aa36eaf02.html

[SouthWestRanger]

I like it, but then again I don’t apply for those tags in Montana I just do antelope elk and mule deer. Hopefully someone who’s done the hunts can chime in.

[Grizzly Adams]

I think some of the sheep tags in the US are once in a lifetime as well. Might serve to spread our rams around as well.

Grizz

[walking buffalo]

Kind of "pointless" when their priority system already makes these draw tags "once in a lifetime".

These kind of proposals are wasted energy that do nothing for hunting or the hunted.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Kind of "pointless" when their priority system already makes these draw tags "once in a lifetime".

These kind of proposals are wasted energy that do nothing for hunting or the hunted.

Well then best advice I can give is if you don’t like how it’s set up here, don’t hunt here. Every year I contact multiple people who A, drew the tag the first year they put in for it or B, have drawn it multiple times. I can think of 2 this past hunting season. One guy drew moose and goat tags first time entering both species In my district. The other I checked his 3rd goat. There is no rhyme or reason too it.

Statistically your chances go up every year you don’t drawn and get bonus points but it is still 100% chance. But given that non residents are limited by state law to no more than 10% of the total tags for any draws, the higher price of the tags doesn’t do near as much for “conservation” as most non residents like to claim. I for one am ok with life time MSG harvests.

[walking buffalo]

Fordtruckin,

" if you don’t like how it’s set up here, don’t hunt here."
Do you follow that advice?
Obviously not.
Nor should you.

Any official reports on how many people are as you consider, unfairly getting lucky?

Sounds like you want to go to a pure priority system.
No chance for cue jumpers (first time applicants shouldn't be able to draw).
Have fun with that if successful.

Are you also for eliminating NR from hunting with Montana draw tags?


Any energy put to forwarding this proposal would be better spent on increasing the game populations.
This would truly allow more people to hunt this species.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Fordtruckin,

" if you don’t like how it’s set up here, don’t hunt here."
Do you follow that advice?
Obviously not.
Nor should you.

Any official reports on how many people are as you consider, unfairly getting lucky?

Sounds like you want to go to a pure priority system.
No chance for cue jumpers (first time applicants shouldn't be able to draw).
Have fun with that if successful.

Are you also for eliminating NR from hunting with Montana draw tags?


Any energy put to forwarding this proposal would be better spent on increasing the game populations.
This would truly allow more people to hunt this species.

Assume much? I didn’t say anything about going to a purely point system. I never said first time applicants should t draw, I didn’t say anything about eliminating NR drawings. Oh and I didn’t say anything about anyone unfairly getting drawn.

If you bothered to comprehend what was written, I provided examples of people I personally have talked to and their records with drawing tags here. That was in reference to your initial comment on our point system. Again all my comment then pointed towards how statistically your odds go up but in reality it is still pure chance on being drawn. As evidenced by people putting in for years and never being drawn, entering the first time and being drawn or being drawn multiple times over their lifetime.

The proposed life time MSG tags are only if you harvest a bull billy or ram. Did you read the proposed legislative action?

As for the copied text you graciously provided of my response, I don’t like how Alberta is set up for non resident hunters so I DON’T hunt there despite having family there. So I DO follow my own advice. Since you know so much about my own hunting habits you would know I have only held Montana hunting licenses and only have hunted in Montana.

With regards to the last portion of my initial statement dealing with the % of draws allotted to NR hunters and the NR hunter impression on how greatly their license dollars impact our conservation. Every year multiple times I have a NR angler or hunter complain about how much our licenses cost and how they (NRs) fund the entire conservation effort in the state.I will not deny their dollars contribute but they are not the saving grace of conservation. NR hunters are not residents of this state and therefore through statute have no claim to our wildlife which are placed in public trust for Montana residents. NR do not have an entitlement to our wildlife and I say again, if you don’t like the rules and regulations our state legislature puts on our wildlife you are free to hunt elsewhere. Is the hunting so bad in Alberta you have to go somewhere else if you want to hunt these species?

I could go on and on about the entitlement amongst NR hunters that come to Montana and my personal opinion of the cost of those licenses but I honestly dont really care to respond anymore as I’m sure I will see a list of assumptions next time I open this thread. Reading your post reminds me of a certain quote from President Lincoln.

We can agree to disagree.

[Osky]

We have other states who have once in a lifetime draws. I see it as more of an interest builder and money raiser.

Osky

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Osky

We have other states who have once in a lifetime draws. I see it as more of an interest builder and money raiser.

Osky

I'm surprised we have opportunities to hunt in the states at all, including some unguided. Not much of that in Canada anymore.

Grizz

[Full Curl Earl]

Love Montana, but their combo license draw availability numbers are really high, making it one of The most expensive application processes. They keep 20 % of the $1200 application fee, if not successful in the 2nd round when applying for a specific zone for elk and deer. And I’m not complaining, its just the cost of playing the game. Montana actually has some of the best access plans in North America, great land owners and people. We could learn alot from our Southern neighbours if we weren’t such pompous Canadian A holes! Lol

[SouthWestRanger]

The states are so generous to us as Canadians, we get to hunt (with the exception of Alaska) like we are American non residents in many states across the west and Midwest! Not only is Montana an awesome destination to hunt but the people are fantastic and the game management is noticeably better than our own, Canadian fish and wildlife divisions could learn a lot from several western states. Crazy that it’s more open for us to DIY hunt Montana, Idaho, Wyoming or Colorado than it is for us to hunt big game in BC... food for thought.

[walking buffalo]

Fordtruckin,

" if you don’t like how it’s set up here, don’t hunt here."
You don't like Montana allowing hunters to kill twice or more on these tags, but you still hunt there.



Did you find any real stats on how many lucky hunters have drawn these tags more than once?
How old are these people, when did they draw the tags?
How many first held the tags back when the availability was much greater?
The "problem" is likely very much exaggerated.





Montana 2019 hunting license sales.

Cost - Resident Hunting
Licenses,
Tags, Permits and Stamps
$12,644,970.00

Cost - Non-Resident Hunting
Licenses,
Tags, Permits and Stamps
$26,660,255.00


When MTF&W dos not achieve their budgetary requirements from license sales, what do they do? Raise the price of licenses.
NR license revenue, including additional spending of 4-500 million on lodging etc, is obviously a very important source of income to the state.


Montana as a state and its citizens don't "own" these animals.
Wildlife is held in trust by governments for ALL people.
Montana does have the legal right to manage them.
Montana also has a legal obligation to allow NR hunting of the "People's" wildlife.

[KC1]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

Assume much? I didn’t say anything about going to a purely point system. I never said first time applicants should t draw, I didn’t say anything about eliminating NR drawings. Oh and I didn’t say anything about anyone unfairly getting drawn.

If you bothered to comprehend what was written, I provided examples of people I personally have talked to and their records with drawing tags here. That was in reference to your initial comment on our point system. Again all my comment then pointed towards how statistically your odds go up but in reality it is still pure chance on being drawn. As evidenced by people putting in for years and never being drawn, entering the first time and being drawn or being drawn multiple times over their lifetime.

The proposed life time MSG tags are only if you harvest a bull billy or ram. Did you read the proposed legislative action?

As for the copied text you graciously provided of my response, I don’t like how Alberta is set up for non resident hunters so I DON’T hunt there despite having family there. So I DO follow my own advice. Since you know so much about my own hunting habits you would know I have only held Montana hunting licenses and only have hunted in Montana.

With regards to the last portion of my initial statement dealing with the % of draws allotted to NR hunters and the NR hunter impression on how greatly their license dollars impact our conservation. Every year multiple times I have a NR angler or hunter complain about how much our licenses cost and how they (NRs) fund the entire conservation effort in the state.I will not deny their dollars contribute but they are not the saving grace of conservation. NR hunters are not residents of this state and therefore through statute have no claim to our wildlife which are placed in public trust for Montana residents. NR do not have an entitlement to our wildlife and I say again, if you don’t like the rules and regulations our state legislature puts on our wildlife you are free to hunt elsewhere. Is the hunting so bad in Alberta you have to go somewhere else if you want to hunt these species?

I could go on and on about the entitlement amongst NR hunters that come to Montana and my personal opinion of the cost of those licenses but I honestly dont really care to respond anymore as I’m sure I will see a list of assumptions next time I open this thread. Reading your post reminds me of a certain quote from President Lincoln.

We can agree to disagree.

Agreed
Used to live and hunt in BC
Almost the same system as Montana as far as I know
Never knew which tags you were going to draw
Remember the excitement when the results came in
Compared to BC the Alberta system is boring
Almost know already which tags I will get two years from now
Wished Alberta would change to the BC and Montana system
Let's agree to disagree on this one.

[fordtruckin]

I think portions of this thread have been grossly derailed by some, back to HB202.

This bill is about about once in a life time Moose Sheep Goat tags upon a SUCCESSFUL HARVEST of a male member of that species. Unsuccessful hunters and harvests of females do not invoke the once in a life time rule. Nothing in this bill as it stands now effects the hunting of species other than Moose Sheep and Goat. (Deer, Elk, antelope etc.. remain as they currently are)

There are only 358 Moose draws(both sexes), 280 Sheep(both sexes) draws and 182 Goat draws(both sexes). NR are limited to a max of 10% of those. 35, 28 and 18 NR each year at most. Currently upon successful drawing, no matter if you harvest or not you have a mandatory 7 year wait before you can re-enter. Statistically it is already a once in a life time tag for 99.9% of hunters.

Some folks are lucky and draw multiple times, while others never do. Going to a once in a life time draw would AT MOST eliminate 358 people from putting back in for moose 7 years later. 280 people from putting back in for sheep 7 years later. 182 people from putting in for goat 7 years later. ONLY if they successfully harvest a Bull, Ram or Billy. That is less than 820 hunters each year.

Taking into account that the number of tags I am using include both tags for both sexes, the numbers of hunters eliminated from drawing again would be significantly less since this bill only applies to tags for male members of the species. Add in that the rule would only be applied upon a SUCCESSFUL harvest you could cut the number of hunters eliminated every year down more.

Common sense says despite eliminating a theoretical max of 820 people per year from ever entering the drawings would not have a negative effect on the animals populations, nor the revenue of the agency given that 28001 people put in for moose, 29583 people put in for sheep and and 18210 people put in for goat tags in 2019. (total of 75794 entries)

As for revenue, A MSG tag for a NR with the pre requisite licenses would cost $1275. 10% of MSG tags would result in 82 NR drawing those tags every year. The revenue of the NR MSG tags would be approximately $104,550.

And yet every year, all these tags sell out and roughly the same number of people enter the drawings. All this bill does is to statistically permit more people have an opportunity to hunt a bull, ram or billy.

(I got all my numbers after I literally counted up every drawing for each species, and the number of applicants for each species in the 2020 MSG regs based off the most recent info, the 2019 drawing. All available in the free 2020 MSG regs published by FWP).