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Old 09-15-2021, 08:11 PM
kropsbone kropsbone is offline
 
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Default No penetration broadhead

Hi everyone, so was out hunting elk ( looking for my first elk) after years and years. Last day of my hunt got on the elk, bulls bugling, snuck in then got close to start a chess make with a bull. Short story, the bull committed, came in perfect up wind at 18-20 yards, let my arrow fly with a slick trick raptor, heard a loud crack and was super exited as the bull ran 40 yards and stopped expecting the bull to fall over. Little speckles of blood and thatís it and a broken arrow back with no penetration, as the arrow hit a rib and deflected and broke. Anyone have this happen to them, I was completely sick and about to cry as I thought I had my first elk, and it was a beautiful 5x5or6x6. If you did what kind of broadhead. Iím so discouraged that my equipment let me down.
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Old 09-15-2021, 08:35 PM
Smoky buck Smoky buck is offline
 
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Sounds like you hit heavy bone
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Old 09-15-2021, 09:05 PM
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Sounds like a shoulder blade? How much of the arrow broke off? In the heart/ lung region an elk chest is only 9-12Ē deepÖ I have had a moving leg snap my arrow off a well hit elkÖ he only went 80-100 yrds and died with little blood because of the shot placement. The arrow and broadhead did the job though.

LC
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:53 PM
brewster29 brewster29 is offline
 
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I really doubt you hit a rib. Ribs don't usually affect arrows much. Even shoulder blades are fairly thin and are penetrated easily if hit square on, but will deflect arrows that strike at an angle. Sounds more like a hit to the humerus.
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  #5  
Old 09-16-2021, 12:29 AM
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Default Shoulder

Loud smack is shoulder, was prob angling to more than you thought. He will be fine. Wait for a perfect broadside and go 2 a 2 blade if u r scared of penetration issues.

Alien archery makes great cheap ones, 12 for 100$
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:54 AM
kropsbone kropsbone is offline
 
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Thanks, everyone
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:01 AM
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Yes Iíve been there and yes there are solutions. Iím not going to start guessing as to what happened, if you want my help you can tell us what you know and we can fix it from there. If you donít ever want that to happen again, there are things you can change to make sure your gear wonít let you down in the future regardless of what anyone else says. Arrows and broadheads can be built to take any impact without failure but most wonít test hard enough to find the answers. Thatís a bold claim and Iíll make it because Iíve already learned this the hard way and my experience isnít a slave to anyoneís opinion.

Any pics of the arrow? Preferably next to another full length arrow. Where was the blood on the animal/ where do you think you hit him, what angle was he at relative to you and whatís your current arrow/broadhead combination? What are your bow specs? How well is it tuned and how do you know if itís tuned or not? Did you tune it or did a shop?
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  #8  
Old 09-16-2021, 08:10 AM
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You hit heavy bone....shot placement not broadhead issue....it will happen.

I have a rule and that is To immediately knock another arrow....happened to me on a moose...whack....he jolted 10 yards and stopped...the other arrow was a complete pass through
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:13 AM
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For comparison this is the arrow I used to kill an elk this last week, the back part fell out after he took 2 stepsÖ cleaved off by the leg.

The front part stayed inside. Arrow went through the back muscle of the leg, into the rib cage and smashed a rib square in the offside. Going through both lungs.

The bull didn't bleed much because of the shot placement but does very fast.



LC
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:34 PM
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I had the same thing with a bull moose
Called him in to 20 yards, let er fly and drilled it. So I thought
Watched him walk across a entire quarter section. Chase some deer out of that field. I was scratching my head. Why didnít he fall over? I Smoked him right in the shoulder. Found the arrow after an mile or tracking him. Followed him for 5 hours. When I started tracking him again the next day. He was back in front of my tree stand 🤦*♂️ When he ram away he didnít even have a limp lol
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Old 09-16-2021, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewster29 View Post
I really doubt you hit a rib. Ribs don't usually affect arrows much. Even shoulder blades are fairly thin and are penetrated easily if hit square on, but will deflect arrows that strike at an angle. Sounds more like a hit to the humerus.
I think you are right its the heaviest bone in the body. Can easily turn an arrow.
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2021, 05:34 PM
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Lots of experience on here and over on archerytalk.

While I donít have the experience Iíve had that fear of under penetration.

I upgraded from a 100 grain Exodus to a 150 grain VPA cut on contact broadhead. Iíll be getting some insert / outserts for my arrows as well. Looking to beef up the business end of the arrow to help with penetration. I wonít be shooting past 30 yards so my moose and elk hunting wonít need super speed and flat trajectory. Just going a bit heavy and a bit slower.

But the sound you describe sounds like leg boneÖ
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:28 AM
calgarychef calgarychef is offline
 
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This is the problem that trad hunters have battled forever. Light and fast doesnít penetrate like heavy and a bit slower.

I like to build my arrows with footing front and back, and for big animals I like
Single bevel cut on contact blades with FOC ďhigh enough.Ē

A really well designed heavy arrow out of a heavy bow ďwillĒ penetrate the heavy bones but for Canadian animals itís just better to avoid those bones 🤨
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Old 09-17-2021, 05:16 PM
Madocmike Madocmike is offline
 
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Had a similar thing happen last October 31st. A beautiful whitetail snuck past me just at the point I was loosing light in a hemlock swamp. It was walking straight away when I drew back. at around 15 yards it turned to what I thought was a great angle to double lung him. I let fly and watched the deer nose into the earth on the first leap with my luminock it it as it went up the hill. I never retrieved the deer despite leaving it overnight and then tracking it over 700 yards until I simply lost the track. I did find my arrow about 60 yards over the hill that night and only had about 5" of penetration. I shoot a 60# bow and was using Rage hypodermic 2 blade retractable. Replaying it over and over in my mind, it was just dark enough in that swamp that when I thought it was broadside, I think it was actually quartering away and my shot placement was off and I think it hit his shoulder. Made me sick and I loss sleep over that deer. On the other side of the coin though, our gang hunted that bush hard for the next week during the rifle season and never came across the deer or any sign that coyotes had found it. Whitetails can have a strong demeanor and can survive at times what we think could have been a mortal hit.

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Old 09-17-2021, 05:54 PM
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If nobody wants to discuss this Iíll leave it alone but why do you guys above accept that as ďnormalĒ for archery tackle?

Guys shoot through this with an arrow




And this




And elephants, hippos and rhinos.


Before you get to those ribs youíve got to get through the hide on these animals. Ever seen the leather on a water buff?





But those above accept that we occasionally canít penetrate this




Or even more pathetically, canít penetrate a deer.

And itís accepted as fact. ďOh, you made a bad shot. Better luck next timeĒ.

The internet is full of information, itís also full of urban legend and misinformation. Iíll admit I did plenty of reading ďonlineĒ after I had failures but then I did the testing. Lots of testing and Iíll be the first to tell you that your not only wrong to accept what you have but youíve got your heads in the sand if you donít want to critically evaluate your gear and change some things to make it perform better then it is. Your accepting poor performance because your not willing to look for an alternative and the ďinternetĒ told you thatís just how it is.
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:57 PM
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A poorly tuned bow with poor arrow flight will cause poor penetration as well.if the axis of the arrow is not in line with the target it won't go in very far. Just saying...
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
If nobody wants to discuss this Iíll leave it alone but why do you guys above accept that as ďnormalĒ for archery tackle?

Guys shoot through this with an arrow




And this




And elephants, hippos and rhinos.


Before you get to those ribs youíve got to get through the hide on these animals. Ever seen the leather on a water buff?





But those above accept that we occasionally canít penetrate this




Or even more pathetically, canít penetrate a deer.

And itís accepted as fact. ďOh, you made a bad shot. Better luck next timeĒ.

The internet is full of information, itís also full of urban legend and misinformation. Iíll admit I did plenty of reading ďonlineĒ after I had failures but then I did the testing. Lots of testing and Iíll be the first to tell you that your not only wrong to accept what you have but youíve got your heads in the sand if you donít want to critically evaluate your gear and change some things to make it perform better then it is. Your accepting poor performance because your not willing to look for an alternative and the ďinternetĒ told you thatís just how it is.
100% couldn't agree more. Stick bow archers understand heavy, slow cut on contact single bevel tackle all too well. Unfortunately speed is addictive and makes getting every extra foot of range that much easier. And the majority of the time it works, until it doesn't.

I draw blood and I and my hunt is over, regardless of animal being flesh wounded or dead. Always have and ways will. I haven't wounded and animal in a long time but the first time I did I was a boy. I made a poor shot with the rifle on a deer and we
ever did find it. My dad took my tag and tossed it in the campfire. Not out of anger, but out of necessity. I spent the rest of that season watching my youger brother get to hunt when I couldn't. I really noticed how careful and selective he was. That hunting season changed me as a person. There shouldn't be any 'miques, or gimmies' when your attempting to kill another living creature. Now I'm not saying not to go after a wounded animal, you 100% are obligated to. But if that animal sheds it's blood and you never find it. It won, you lost. Go practice for the rest of the season, try again next year. Having this mentally will force one to re-evaluate ones whole hunting prowess.
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  #18  
Old 09-17-2021, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normanrd View Post
A poorly tuned bow with poor arrow flight will cause poor penetration as well.if the axis of the arrow is not in line with the target it won't go in very far. Just saying...
Amen to thatÖ if people spent time tuning for proper arrow flight and placement, they would spend less time looking for animals.

LC
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Old 09-19-2021, 12:12 PM
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You hit the shoulder or humerus. Maybe more of an angle than you thought, maybe he jumped the string just enough, maybe you were off in your POA or POI. Thereís 12 inches of lethal rib/lung area behind the shoulder of an elk. Aim for the center of that, not the crease.

And stop using expandables for elk. If you canít get a original or magnum slick trick to fly well thereís something wrong with your setup.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:28 AM
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Must be using those Berger broad heads. Some of you guys make it sound like the game is made out of armoured steel! you can punch through a shoulder cut ribs in half and break legs with arrows fairly easily and still get the kill.
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  #21  
Old 09-20-2021, 07:41 AM
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Letís just say there are many variables that come into play and we need to minimize what can go wrong to ensure a clean kill.

Every person that hunts world wide has had to resort to tracking, lost game etc or eventually will but we do are absolute best not to.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
You hit heavy bone....shot placement not broadhead issue....it will happen.

I have a rule and that is To immediately knock another arrow....happened to me on a moose...whack....he jolted 10 yards and stopped...the other arrow was a complete pass through
Ohhh and this was cut on Impact broadhead razor sharp, Easton 2219 arrows, 65lbs draw weight but looking back a slight angle and front leg angle to me wasnít favourable ohhhh yeah hindsight...
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:27 AM
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Two, good posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramonmark View Post
100% couldn't agree more. Stick bow archers understand heavy, slow cut on contact single bevel tackle all too well. Unfortunately speed is addictive and makes getting every extra foot of range that much easier. And the majority of the time it works, until it doesn't.

I draw blood and I and my hunt is over, regardless of animal being flesh wounded or dead. Always have and ways will. I haven't wounded and animal in a long time but the first time I did I was a boy. I made a poor shot with the rifle on a deer and we
ever did find it. My dad took my tag and tossed it in the campfire. Not out of anger, but out of necessity. I spent the rest of that season watching my youger brother get to hunt when I couldn't. I really noticed how careful and selective he was. That hunting season changed me as a person. There shouldn't be any 'miques, or gimmies' when your attempting to kill another living creature. Now I'm not saying not to go after a wounded animal, you 100% are obligated to. But if that animal sheds it's blood and you never find it. It won, you lost. Go practice for the rest of the season, try again next year. Having this mentally will force one to re-evaluate ones whole hunting prowess.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:53 PM
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A lot of bowhunters are cross-overs from the world of rifle. Many have been told that shoulder and neck shots are deadly. The problem is that those shot placement choices require a lot of energy to be successful. That is exactly what is missing. Archers need to aim for the furnace room, shoulder and neck shots are ineffective.
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:07 AM
1894Cowboy 1894Cowboy is offline
 
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Quote:
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A lot of bowhunters are cross-overs from the world of rifle. Many have been told that shoulder and neck shots are deadly. The problem is that those shot placement choices require a lot of energy to be successful. That is exactly what is missing. Archers need to aim for the furnace room, shoulder and neck shots are ineffective.
I'll add to this. The one and only elk I've gotten with my bow was with a quartering-away shot at 20 yards. I aimed for a spot in the boiler room, behind the shoulder, with the exit point at the front leg on the other side. It would have been a perfect rifle shot.

With the bow, though, at that angle the ribcage formed a solid wall that the arrow couldn't penetrate, and it got deflected up and behind the shoulder. Poor thing ran for 800 m before bleeding out and dying, finally found it the next morning after it sat out all night in temperatures of +8 C. The meat didn't smell so great at that point, but I kept it and ate it anyway out of respect and perhaps, penance.

Lesson learned. A bow is not a rifle, and I will never take a quartering-away shot with it again. For this limited-skills archer, it's full broadside or nothing now.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 1894Cowboy View Post
I'll add to this. The one and only elk I've gotten with my bow was with a quartering-away shot at 20 yards. I aimed for a spot in the boiler room, behind the shoulder, with the exit point at the front leg on the other side. It would have been a perfect rifle shot.

With the bow, though, at that angle the ribcage formed a solid wall that the arrow couldn't penetrate, and it got deflected up and behind the shoulder. Poor thing ran for 800 m before bleeding out and dying, finally found it the next morning after it sat out all night in temperatures of +8 C. The meat didn't smell so great at that point, but I kept it and ate it anyway out of respect and perhaps, penance.

Lesson learned. A bow is not a rifle, and I will never take a quartering-away shot with it again. For this limited-skills archer, it's full broadside or nothing now.
Must have been extremely bad luck, I have shot a couple elk with a quartering away shot and had great results, was even using a dreaded mechanical broadhead.

Clean
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:37 PM
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Slight quartering away is one of my favourite shots. There is no way a quartering away elks rib cage made a brick wall an arrow couldnít go through. Once again poor shot placement. There are thousands of tests done on broadheads where theyíre shot at a sheet of plywood at an extreme angle and it just deflects the arrow. We all mess up shot placement but people sure resort to other excuses pretty quick.
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:44 AM
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In the excitement of moment whose to say didnt hit a branch first and deflect and just crease the elk. What you think you see isnt always what actually happens out there especially in the excitement of moment, Agree with poorly tuned bow can affect penetration.
Gord
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:06 PM
cody j cody j is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
If nobody wants to discuss this Iíll leave it alone but why do you guys above accept that as ďnormalĒ for archery tackle?

Guys shoot through this with an arrow




And this




And elephants, hippos and rhinos.


Before you get to those ribs youíve got to get through the hide on these animals. Ever seen the leather on a water buff?





But those above accept that we occasionally canít penetrate this




Or even more pathetically, canít penetrate a deer.

And itís accepted as fact. ďOh, you made a bad shot. Better luck next timeĒ.

The internet is full of information, itís also full of urban legend and misinformation. Iíll admit I did plenty of reading ďonlineĒ after I had failures but then I did the testing. Lots of testing and Iíll be the first to tell you that your not only wrong to accept what you have but youíve got your heads in the sand if you donít want to critically evaluate your gear and change some things to make it perform better then it is. Your accepting poor performance because your not willing to look for an alternative and the ďinternetĒ told you thatís just how it is.
Out of curiosity what kind of gear do you use on Buffalo?
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody j View Post
Out of curiosity what kind of gear do you use on Buffalo?
With the exception of total weight the exact same setup everyone should be using and most of these problems discussed above would go away.

A perfectly tuned bow shooting a perfectly tuned arrow. Thatís priority #1. A properly tuned bow will shoot a fletched field tip, bare shaft and ANY straight spinning broadhead to the same poi at your max range. Iíve shot three arrows as described at 70m and had all three shafts touching. Tuning is the bedrock of penetration.
Then the arrow has to maintain structural integrity on any hit. If the insert slips, shaft breaks, broadhead bends the penetration is over. I torture test every type of arrow I want to hunt to ensure it will never break on any impact. And they survive but the entire system has to be tested until failure and that failure fixed until itís integrity is 100%. Do me a favour, take your bow out, find a piece of stone or brick big enough it wonít move and wonít break and shoot it at 10m. If your arrow breaks you need to adjust your setup. If it doesnít, move in until your shooting it at 3-4m straight on and at an angle and if itís not breaking youíve got that covered. Donít bother with a cinder block, theyíre to soft. If the target breaks find something harder to shoot. If your sitting there thinking ďno way Iím wasting an arrow like thatĒ you have some work to do because they can be built to take that abuse.
Then for heavy game, arrow mass plays a large part. Heavier arrows penetrate deeper. After that there are smaller changes that make a difference. Type of broadhead, FOC, bevel(s), broadhead tip type, mechanical advantage etc.
There is a ton of information on the web from hunters and guides using archery tackle on heavy game.
I still havenít killed a buff. I had a trip to the gulf back in 2014 that went pear shaped. One of the guys in the group brought his five pig dogs. They all ate 1080 at a gas station just shy of the property and had to be shot. Matt was pretty torn up about losing his dogs and upset the land owner. The deal went from ďcome shoot everything you want for freeĒ to ďif you want a buff your paying $50k and pigs are $500 a piece.

I have another trip planned next October up in the same area of the Northern Territory. There are seven of us going for two weeks. Sleeping on a houseboat, we are taking three fishing boats, my bows and a few rifles. We have open slather again on a half million acres and Iíll attempt to get a couple buffalo with the bow. My setup last time was a footed .250 spine fmj dangerous game and a 250 grain vpa. This time I may go with a .200 kinetic and 250 grain vpa but thatís yet to be tested. If not Iíll take the fmjís again.


While I havenít shot a buff yet I killed over two doz elk in Alberta and a couple moose along with deer, bears and antelope. I had penetration issues at one point and decided that wasnít good enough. I researched and tested until I could break any bone in an elks body. Prior to that Iíve seen broadheads skip on ribs, poor penetration and shoulders stop arrows as well as broken arrows and bent or broken broadheads. In the last fifteen years I havenít had an arrow stop in an animal and havenít so much as bent a broadhead. Iíve broken the humerus, shoulders, pelvics, spines, ribs. Shot lengthways through them and can tell you itís possible to be amazed how deeply an arrow can penetrate if itís setup and tuned properly. Most of my post mortem testing was on bears and I shot through them lengthways breaking legs on both ends.

Iíll share whatever Iíve learned but youíve got to ask whatever your wondering about cause I canít read minds.
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