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  #151  
Old 11-15-2020, 07:09 PM
kevinhits kevinhits is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
2 weeks lockdown would help that is why our healthcare professionals are recommending it. The biggest problem with spread is that most people spread it before they end up developing severe enough symptoms that they feel warrants testing/isolating.

If everyone goes into isolation for 2 weeks and everyone that gets sick during that time is tested then the majority of infected individuals would be found before transmitting to others and a number of them(including asymptomatic people) would also recover.

Cloth masks and surgical masks are as effective as N95 masks at containing droplets/moist breath etc. The extra aerosal capability of N95 masks is not warranted and there are not enough N95 masks available to be able to make them compulsory even if they were that much more effective. There are many more important uses of N95 masks that require the availability of their supply.
2 week lockdown will do crap...How many Albertans will follow this and who is going to enforce it?
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  #152  
Old 11-15-2020, 07:19 PM
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I believe people know that their will be cases. But with lockdowns they are trying to flatten the curve so that our health care isn’t overwhelmed. I live in Manitoba and with our case count increasing they have locked us down since our health care is getting overwhelmed and there are not ICU beds for people that need them.
I have not heard before that the flu has caused hospital beds to be used as much and ICU to have no room.

As for not testing people that have been exposed to a person is that we don’t have the capacity to test that many people and restrict it to symptomatic people.

It is all about controlling the spread to keep it manageable for our healthcare . For those of u that say we should just let it run its course maybe u need to be put in the position to tell people their family member will not get saved.
Also maybe u need to go talk to healthcare individuals that are trying to save patients and tell them u think it is best we just let it run it’s course and don’t worry that many more and more people trying to get help will just die before they can be seen .
There will be lineups of people dying waiting to be checked in. Walk a mile in their shoes.

I will do what I can to limit the spread and know I am helping people that get sick can have a hospital bed they need and hopefully others will do the same so if I need a bed if I get it it will be there. As I have said before to those that think we should just let it run it’s course and don’t want lockdowns or masks then if you get sick just stay home and hope u better better and please don’t come to the hospital and take a spot away from people that have been trying and carrying to slow the spread.
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  #153  
Old 11-15-2020, 07:52 PM
gman1978 gman1978 is offline
 
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I think there is also another reason people are not following the guidelines laid out by the government. In my travels people that have friends or family that tested positive have had no or very little symptoms. Not as bad as a cold is what I keep hearing. If that’s what people believe the symptoms are no wonder they don’t care as much. There is no question this is not the bubonic plague but obviously seems to hit some people worse than others. The media has scared people also. I wonder if nobody reported on covid and it ran its course naturally would we be just talking about a bad flu bug that’s going around or would it be chaos.
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  #154  
Old 11-15-2020, 07:55 PM
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I wonder if nobody reported on covid and it ran its course naturally would we be just talking about a bad flu bug that’s going around or would it be chaos.
If it weren't for social media and establishment media pushing fear and hysteria 24/7, almost nobody would have heard of this and yes, it would be considered no more than an exceptionally bad flu year. 15, 20 years ago it would be business as usual.
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  #155  
Old 11-15-2020, 07:58 PM
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So what do you boys suggest we do as a society.....?
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  #156  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:02 PM
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So what do you boys suggest we do as a society.....?
Start 8-9 more threads about it. Best course of action.
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  #157  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
Schools dont report cases to AHS...

AHS reports cases to schools...
Ok.

(But that is not what is happening in reality, at least here). Typically parents get the results, call the school to tell why their kid will be gone and then the school call ahs, then it's up the to school to contact all the close contacts (I know you won't believe me, so it really doesn't matter).
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  #158  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:05 PM
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Start 8-9 more threads about it. Best course of action.
Move along.. let it run its course. Protect those you care about, the strong survive .
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  #159  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mooseknuckle View Post
Start 8-9 more threads about it. Best course of action.
HAHAHA no kidding.
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  #160  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
Ok.

(But that is not what is happening in reality, at least here). Typically parents get the results, call the school to tell why their kid will be gone and then the school call ahs, then it's up the to school to contact all the close contacts (I know you won't believe me, so it really doesn't matter).
There is a huge difference between reporting cases and informing parents a child in smart class has become infected.
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  #161  
Old 11-15-2020, 08:51 PM
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So funny how the government, doctors, scientists and epidemiologists say one course of action is recommended (and provide science to back up their claims) .... and AO's experts poo-poo it because they seem to because they know better and we should "let er' buck".

There really is zero point in discussing anything rationally or intelligently regarding this topic anymore.

I wish you all the best and I sincerely hope this does not have a devastating effect on your loved ones.

And for the record, I am not hiding under my bed, but I'm also smart enough to listen to, and do my part as recommended by people who are more qualified, smarter than I am, and have data I don't.

Sounds like a more than a few of you don't and won't - so you must be smarter than all of these qualified people and seem to know best. Quite sad .............. you people should really give that some thought.

Last edited by EZM; 11-15-2020 at 08:57 PM.
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  #162  
Old 11-15-2020, 09:02 PM
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https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...-not-lockdowns

Excerpt

Kenney — to his everlasting credit — remains one of the few politicians on the planet able to see the issue clearly and take a measured response. He put it in perspective last week: In Alberta each year, we have more than 25,000 annual deaths; we had 449 deaths from opioid poisoning in the first six months. The number of people who have died from COVID is 383. Most of those occurred in March and April, when we knew nothing about how to respond to the virus.

We know a lot now. We know that, according to Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta’s chief medical officer of health, the risk of death is “vanishingly small” for healthy people under the age of 40, and the risk is many times greater for those over age 70 and with one or more pre-existing conditions. This is good to know because it means we can prevent deaths by focusing our protection efforts on those most at risk.

So far, in the entire pandemic, there have been 1,278 people hospitalized and 220 people placed in ICU and we are being told that this is placing the hospital system in undue stress. But in 2017-18 there were 3,097 people hospitalized with influenza and 249 admissions to ICU. Why were hospital administrators able to handle the surge in patients back then without locking society down and they can’t manage the surge in patients now?

As of Thursday morning, we have 217 in hospital and 46 in intensive care. Back in March, the government was preparing to have as many as 2,000 COVID patients in hospital and more than 1,000 in ICU. We have the capacity, or at least we should.

But to the point, if a $20-billion health-care system that employs more than 100,000 people can’t manage 217 people in hospital without a lockdown, we have bigger problems that won’t be solved by shutting down shops and restaurants.

If you haven’t read Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, you should. In Chapter 7, Naive Intervention, he talks about iatrogenics, which means harm “caused by the healer.” He tells the story of the need to “do something” to protect children’s health in the 1930s. So 389 children were presented to a set of New York City doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 174 of them. The remaining 215 were presented to a second set of doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 99. Then 116 were shown to a third set of doctors and 52 were told they needed the surgery. This, despite the fact that at the time there was a two to four per cent risk of death from surgery.

Taleb told this story to “illustrate the lack of awareness of the need to look for a break-even point between benefits and harm.”

Doctors discredit themselves when they fail to acknowledge the immense social harm that comes from delayed diagnosis and treatment of severe disease, deaths of despair from suicide and substance abuse, and long-term mental anguish associated with job loss, financial collapse, marital breakdown, domestic abuse and anxiety.

The premier is on the right track with his strategy of focused protection for the most vulnerable. You should tell him so.
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  #163  
Old 11-15-2020, 09:21 PM
gman1978 gman1978 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
If it weren't for social media and establishment media pushing fear and hysteria 24/7, almost nobody would have heard of this and yes, it would be considered no more than an exceptionally bad flu year. 15, 20 years ago it would be business as usual.
Yeah but nobody wants to talk about that.
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  #164  
Old 11-15-2020, 09:23 PM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
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If it weren't for social media and establishment media pushing fear and hysteria 24/7, almost nobody would have heard of this and yes, it would be considered no more than an exceptionally bad flu year. 15, 20 years ago it would be business as usual.
Laughable!!!
2017-18 was considered a bad flu year in Alberta...92 deaths.
So far Covid in eight months has killed over 300.
And that was with a lockdown and all the other measures implemented.
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  #165  
Old 11-15-2020, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
Laughable!!!
2017-18 was considered a bad flu year in Alberta...92 deaths.
So far Covid in eight months has killed over 300.
And that was with a lockdown and all the other measures implemented.
And you very likely wouldn't have a clue if you didn't have the internet, facebook and establishment media in your face about it.

450 opioid deaths in the first 6 months of 2020. On average 2 people die every day from it. Where is your outrage about that? 556 people killed themselves in 2019. That number will be much higher this year. Where is your outrage about that?
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  #166  
Old 11-15-2020, 09:44 PM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
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[QUOTE=Outbound;4268937]And you very likely wouldn't have a clue if you didn't have the internet, facebook and establishment media in your face about it.


That's right because 20 years ago there were no newspapers or tv/radio news.
And the last I checked drug overdoses and suicide couldn't be spread to unsuspecting people through a cough.
You gotta do better than this
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  #167  
Old 11-15-2020, 10:02 PM
Rvsask Rvsask is offline
 
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Suicide rates are actually trending downward in 2020, not just in Alberta either. Just bc Rebel Media says they will skyrocket, which math shows isn’t true, it isn’t any more reliable than me predicting something. So far, the math says that 556 won’t be higher.
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  #168  
Old 11-15-2020, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud View Post
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...-not-lockdowns

Excerpt

Kenney — to his everlasting credit — remains one of the few politicians on the planet able to see the issue clearly and take a measured response. He put it in perspective last week: In Alberta each year, we have more than 25,000 annual deaths; we had 449 deaths from opioid poisoning in the first six months. The number of people who have died from COVID is 383. Most of those occurred in March and April, when we knew nothing about how to respond to the virus.

We know a lot now. We know that, according to Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta’s chief medical officer of health, the risk of death is “vanishingly small” for healthy people under the age of 40, and the risk is many times greater for those over age 70 and with one or more pre-existing conditions. This is good to know because it means we can prevent deaths by focusing our protection efforts on those most at risk.

So far, in the entire pandemic, there have been 1,278 people hospitalized and 220 people placed in ICU and we are being told that this is placing the hospital system in undue stress. But in 2017-18 there were 3,097 people hospitalized with influenza and 249 admissions to ICU. Why were hospital administrators able to handle the surge in patients back then without locking society down and they can’t manage the surge in patients now?

As of Thursday morning, we have 217 in hospital and 46 in intensive care. Back in March, the government was preparing to have as many as 2,000 COVID patients in hospital and more than 1,000 in ICU. We have the capacity, or at least we should.

But to the point, if a $20-billion health-care system that employs more than 100,000 people can’t manage 217 people in hospital without a lockdown, we have bigger problems that won’t be solved by shutting down shops and restaurants.

If you haven’t read Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, you should. In Chapter 7, Naive Intervention, he talks about iatrogenics, which means harm “caused by the healer.” He tells the story of the need to “do something” to protect children’s health in the 1930s. So 389 children were presented to a set of New York City doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 174 of them. The remaining 215 were presented to a second set of doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 99. Then 116 were shown to a third set of doctors and 52 were told they needed the surgery. This, despite the fact that at the time there was a two to four per cent risk of death from surgery.

Taleb told this story to “illustrate the lack of awareness of the need to look for a break-even point between benefits and harm.”

Doctors discredit themselves when they fail to acknowledge the immense social harm that comes from delayed diagnosis and treatment of severe disease, deaths of despair from suicide and substance abuse, and long-term mental anguish associated with job loss, financial collapse, marital breakdown, domestic abuse and anxiety.

The premier is on the right track with his strategy of focused protection for the most vulnerable. You should tell him so.
Good post, a lot of wisdom there. Trouble is to many want to over simplify things to make it more palatable to their understanding. That's where the divide happens between the carefree and much to careful.

This virus isn't the boogeyman, but it's not to be takin lightly either. Its spreads easily and those that are at higher risk should be vigilant. Life must go on otherwise.
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  #169  
Old 11-15-2020, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud View Post
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...-not-lockdowns

Excerpt

Kenney — to his everlasting credit — remains one of the few politicians on the planet able to see the issue clearly and take a measured response. He put it in perspective last week: In Alberta each year, we have more than 25,000 annual deaths; we had 449 deaths from opioid poisoning in the first six months. The number of people who have died from COVID is 383. Most of those occurred in March and April, when we knew nothing about how to respond to the virus.

We know a lot now. We know that, according to Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta’s chief medical officer of health, the risk of death is “vanishingly small” for healthy people under the age of 40, and the risk is many times greater for those over age 70 and with one or more pre-existing conditions. This is good to know because it means we can prevent deaths by focusing our protection efforts on those most at risk.

So far, in the entire pandemic, there have been 1,278 people hospitalized and 220 people placed in ICU and we are being told that this is placing the hospital system in undue stress. But in 2017-18 there were 3,097 people hospitalized with influenza and 249 admissions to ICU. Why were hospital administrators able to handle the surge in patients back then without locking society down and they can’t manage the surge in patients now?

As of Thursday morning, we have 217 in hospital and 46 in intensive care. Back in March, the government was preparing to have as many as 2,000 COVID patients in hospital and more than 1,000 in ICU. We have the capacity, or at least we should.

But to the point, if a $20-billion health-care system that employs more than 100,000 people can’t manage 217 people in hospital without a lockdown, we have bigger problems that won’t be solved by shutting down shops and restaurants.

If you haven’t read Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, you should. In Chapter 7, Naive Intervention, he talks about iatrogenics, which means harm “caused by the healer.” He tells the story of the need to “do something” to protect children’s health in the 1930s. So 389 children were presented to a set of New York City doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 174 of them. The remaining 215 were presented to a second set of doctors who recommended tonsillectomies for 99. Then 116 were shown to a third set of doctors and 52 were told they needed the surgery. This, despite the fact that at the time there was a two to four per cent risk of death from surgery.

Taleb told this story to “illustrate the lack of awareness of the need to look for a break-even point between benefits and harm.”

Doctors discredit themselves when they fail to acknowledge the immense social harm that comes from delayed diagnosis and treatment of severe disease, deaths of despair from suicide and substance abuse, and long-term mental anguish associated with job loss, financial collapse, marital breakdown, domestic abuse and anxiety.

The premier is on the right track with his strategy of focused protection for the most vulnerable. You should tell him so.
Bingo!
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  #170  
Old 11-15-2020, 10:52 PM
pikeman06 pikeman06 is offline
 
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its that portion of the population that has no regard for anyone but themselves and could care less if they spread it to someone's mother or father with compromised health. They simply don't care which to me is dangerous. They are the ones spreading the virus around and that's why its so hard to trace. They don't get sick enough to go to the hospital but also could care less if they spread it around. It's a big conspiracy and a hidden agenda blah blah blah to them. Even if you told them that it could potentially kill someone with many years of grandparenting and being a mentor to young family and passing on values and morales and respect for one another they wouldn't care because it won't kill them and that's all that matters. Pretty hard to fix that kind of attitude. I hear it all the time I'm on a big project and they are doing their best to protect us and set guidelines and rules to keep us safe but there are those guys that just don't care. Period. I wear earplugs on the way to work so I don't have to hear it and If I get covid from one of them its gonna be personal. That's all I got. I lost a friend that was 60 from covid out of the foothills and a friend that was 63 they were just like you and me maybe a bit too much smoking otherwise there every day for work for years till they got sick. Couldnt even say goodbye or attend their funerals because of this crap. That's my personal story about covid and I want it to go away instead of ruining our lives and economy etc. I'm a pipeliner not a friggen chief health officer in charge of millions of peoples lives. I will do what the lady and our premier says because its worked so far. End of story.
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  #171  
Old 11-15-2020, 11:11 PM
Iron Brew Iron Brew is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
Isn't that the point of a vaccine? Mass immunity? Why sit around and wait for a vaccine when this could just let it run its course.

Yes.. there are lots of people concerned about that. Considering how small scale the "tests" are at this point and "unexplained illnesses", deaths, etc are the result of taking the vaccine. Now obviously that's why these tests occur, but do you honestly think they know (or care) about the long term effects are? Most of these vaccines are 2 parts that require a second shot 6 months later. Well, we are just over 6 months into this, how have they determined this already? What are the long term effects of it?

Long term effects of covid? So far none. Within 3-6months no long term effects are prevalent, and most are completely recovered.
I really hope you are trolling and not serious
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  #172  
Old 11-16-2020, 11:05 AM
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For fun, check the Alberta Schools outbreak map:
https://www.alberta.ca/schools/covid...status-map.htm


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My body can fight off most infections but I stand little chance against fear driven radicals trying to enforce rule they alone came up with.
Your post is spot on, Keg.
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  #173  
Old 11-16-2020, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
So funny how the government, doctors, scientists and epidemiologists say one course of action is recommended (and provide science to back up their claims) .... and AO's experts poo-poo it because they seem to because they know better and we should "let er' buck".

There really is zero point in discussing anything rationally or intelligently regarding this topic anymore.

I wish you all the best and I sincerely hope this does not have a devastating effect on your loved ones.

And for the record, I am not hiding under my bed, but I'm also smart enough to listen to, and do my part as recommended by people who are more qualified, smarter than I am, and have data I don't.

Sounds like a more than a few of you don't and won't - so you must be smarter than all of these qualified people and seem to know best. Quite sad .............. you people should really give that some thought.
Part of the issue is an expert says one thing and another expert says the polar opposite, then the Gov't says something and the opposition says the polar opposite.

But I wholeheartedly agree, and am going to follow suit. I never thought AO would turn into facebook, but here we are. There is no common sense anymore with so many people.
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I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #174  
Old 11-16-2020, 07:18 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
And you very likely wouldn't have a clue if you didn't have the internet, facebook and establishment media in your face about it.

450 opioid deaths in the first 6 months of 2020. On average 2 people die every day from it. Where is your outrage about that? 556 people killed themselves in 2019. That number will be much higher this year. Where is your outrage about that?


Someone wants to kill themselves via opioids should cause outrage? Seems kinda voluntary no? Gotta think they knew the risks.

I don't get outraged at folks who climb ice walls, jump out of airplanes with faith in 5 lbs of silk, or kick grizzlies in the arse either.
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  #175  
Old 11-16-2020, 07:30 PM
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Record 20 deaths today. 14 of which were related to current outbreaks in hospitals and care homes.

Up to 264 hospitalizations and 57 people in ICU.

Only getting started...
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  #176  
Old 11-16-2020, 07:52 PM
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Seems like a lotta folks here don't understand the significance of an ICU admission.

First thing, we don't have an unlimited supply of ICU beds available to us here in Alberta. They're also not easy to create as the rooms are quite specialized. Furthermore, we don't have the physicians or nurses to staff them.

Next point is that our ICUs cost a lot of money, and at any given time they are running near capacity. The government isn't throwing money at them to keep another 100 or so beds unused on the sidelines.

So to say another couple hundred Albertans in an ICU isn't a big deal is absolute ignorance. If nothing else its expensive. Each day in the ICU costs the tax payer $10-15K. Per person.

We're well on our way to delaying ORs to free up the few critical care beds they sometimes take.

I, like most of you, agree that there needs to be some discretion in how we handle this, and am aware of the hardships that the lockdowns have imposed on numerous families. This has to be balanced by the fact that this definitely is not just another "bad flu year".
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  #177  
Old 11-16-2020, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
Record 20 deaths today. 14 of which were related to current outbreaks in hospitals and care homes.

Up to 264 hospitalizations and 57 people in ICU.

Only getting started...
I like how they word it...."..when 20 Albertans died after they contracted the coronavirus". So the virus didn't necessary kill them, or even contribute, they simply died after contracting the virus.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/hinshaw-...aths-1.5191207
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  #178  
Old 11-16-2020, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
I like how they word it...."..when 20 Albertans died after they contracted the coronavirus". So the virus didn't necessary kill them, or even contribute, they simply died after contracting the virus.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/hinshaw-...aths-1.5191207
Gotta give you this...no matter how little you actually know about the subject you don't give up
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  #179  
Old 11-16-2020, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
I like how they word it...."..when 20 Albertans died after they contracted the coronavirus". So the virus didn't necessary kill them, or even contribute, they simply died after contracting the virus.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/hinshaw-...aths-1.5191207
Right? Chances are having COVID didn't contribute at all...
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  #180  
Old 11-16-2020, 10:51 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
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Originally Posted by pittman View Post
Seems like a lotta folks here don't understand the significance of an ICU admission.

First thing, we don't have an unlimited supply of ICU beds available to us here in Alberta. They're also not easy to create as the rooms are quite specialized. Furthermore, we don't have the physicians or nurses to staff them.

Next point is that our ICUs cost a lot of money, and at any given time they are running near capacity. The government isn't throwing money at them to keep another 100 or so beds unused on the sidelines.

So to say another couple hundred Albertans in an ICU isn't a big deal is absolute ignorance. If nothing else its expensive. Each day in the ICU costs the tax payer $10-15K. Per person.

We're well on our way to delaying ORs to free up the few critical care beds they sometimes take.

I, like most of you, agree that there needs to be some discretion in how we handle this, and am aware of the hardships that the lockdowns have imposed on numerous families. This has to be balanced by the fact that this definitely is not just another "bad flu year".

Well thought out post. Another thing most don't think of is how labour intensive the treatment of Covid patients is and how it reduces staff time with other patients. We don't have to see icu crammed to the rafters to see large implications for non covid patients.

It's definitely not just another flu. Anyone saying that is badly misinformed.
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