Identity of Russian hackers finally revealed

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by EZM

Hold on there Comrade !!??!!??

Are you actually saying Russia's actions (involvement of their troops) in the Ukraine (and maybe even Crimea) are staged and didn't actually take place?

And are you saying OKI is soaking up false propaganda and he's brainwashed?

Really?

I don't think I could think of another member as pragmatic, logical and reasonable as our little old OKI. Seems like a sensible enough guy who doesn't get sucked into too much of the bull poop slung around by the media and other contributors here.

And before you task me to provide "evidence" why don't I ask you to provide us all with a credible source of information that would support your position.

I am all ears, open to discussion, and willing to learn, as I have no skin in this game, and no real firm opinion or position on the matter other that being a victim of the false news because I thought that was real.

Please share.

OKI may be the most beautiful mind of our times, but even the most beautiful, pragmatic, logical and reasonable minds are prone to making wrong conclusions if the only information they get is bogus. For the rest of us folks, here is a translation: garbage in - garbage out.

[KGB]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Just kidding. I love you two.

Love the picture! The guy on the right looks like a Popeye!

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by KGB

Love the picture! The guy on the right looks like a Popeye!

I would be on the left, the guy on the right looks like he might be a spy - no characteristic smile while drinking vodka - dead give away

[6.5 shooter]

[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;3643095]Comparing CBC being the same as RT is ludicrous.

RT is a pure Russian Government Propaganda driven entity.

CBC is just run by Liberal minded managers. Trudeau can't tell them what to run. Putin tells RT what to run.

There is a big difference man.





1.5 Billion dollars of our money buys that Dictator PM of ours a whole lot of sugar coated press......Give your head a shake man......The liberals have had the press in Canada in their pocket for years.

[ak-71]

[QUOTE=6.5 shooter;3643375]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Comparing CBC being the same as RT is ludicrous.

RT is a pure Russian Government Propaganda driven entity.

CBC is just run by Liberal minded managers. Trudeau can't tell them what to run. Putin tells RT what to run.

There is a big difference man.





1.5 Billion dollars of our money buys that Dictator PM of ours a whole lot of sugar coated press......Give your head a shake man......The liberals have had the press in Canada in their pocket for years.

Yep, that's what Putin do in the morning - he wakes up and thinks hard:"What do I order them damn RT guys to say before breakfast"

Double sorry, shooter, you are back on the list - I
just didn't read your post.

PS, Sundance, can you negotiate a good overtime rate for me for all this blogging too?

[Bub]

What would happen here in Canada if Trudeau says tomorrow (with the full support of Liberal Party and, perhaps, some of the NDP) that French is not going to be an official language in this country any longer; in fact, no language other than English may be used in schools or any other educational establishments?

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Bub

What would happen here in Canada if Trudeau says tomorrow (with the full support of Liberal Party and, perhaps, some of the NDP) that French is not going to be an official language in this country any longer; in fact, no language other than English may be used in schools or any other educational establishments?

Bub, I just want to clarify the relevance - takeover of power happened on February 22nd, law banning use of Russian language as regional language was approved on February 23rd (though vetoed by acting president).
I don't think it was the main reason for separatism and civil war, but illustrates anti-Russian policy, though if you can speak Russian or Ukrainian watch meetings of this time youtube, you will see that language use is just the tip of the iceberg, I am sure normal people will be appalled by slogans to "hang Russians on branches" and others of a sort.

Now look at the linguistic maps of Ukraine and try to guess which regions either went to Russia, or fighting for independence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...etailed-en.png

(Hint: on the map below find numbers bigger than 68%)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...01_Russian.svg

Do you still think it was not a stupid idea to base a new national idea on anti-Russian ideology?
It looks almost as if somebody carefully designed for a civil war in this country

[Bub]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Bub, I just want to clarify the relevance - takeover of power happened on February 22nd, law banning use of Russian language as regional language was approved on February 23rd (though vetoed by acting president).

Indeed. That is what I was referring to, as well as the new law that came in to place just a few days ago converting all of their schooling to strictly Ukrainian by 2020 (unless I am remembering the dates wrong). And this is in the 21th century in a "European" country craving to become a part of the EU. LOL. It is especially "funny" because (from Wikipedia)

The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian, an East Slavic language which is the native language of 67.5% of Ukraine's population. Russian is the native language of 29.6% of Ukraine's population and the rest (2.9%) are native speakers of other languages. Ethnologue lists 40 minority languages and dialects; nearly all are native to the former Soviet Union.

According to Article 10 of the Constitution of Ukraine the state has an obligation to ensure the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout Ukraine while guaranteeing the free development, use and protection of the Russian language and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine.

Ridiculous, isn't it? Nearly third of the population has Russian as the native language. This is compared to 56.9% vs. 21.3% for English vs. French here in Canada! ( according to another Wikipedia page on Canada)

The numbers tell you something, don't they? If you continue reading the same Wikipedia article

In an 11–23 December 2015 study by the Razumkov Centre taken in all regions of Ukraine other than Russian-annexed Crimea, and separatist controlled Donetsk, and Luhansk, a majority considered Ukrainian their native language (60%), followed by Russian (15%), while 22% used both languages equally. Two percent held an other native language. For the preferred language of work, an equal amount chose either Ukrainian or Russian (37%) and 21% communicated bilingually. The study polled 10,071 individuals and held a 1% margin of error.

Past polling:

Languages spoken at home 2009
In an October 2009 poll by FOM-Ukraine of 1,000 respondents, 52% stated they use Russian as their "Language of communication"; while 41% of the respondents state they use Ukrainian and 8% stated they use a mixture of both.

A March 2010 poll by Research & Branding Group showed that 65% considered Ukrainian as their native language and 33% Russian. This poll also showed the standard of knowledge of the Russian language (free conversational language, writing and reading) in current Ukraine is higher (76%) than the standard of knowledge of the Ukrainian language (69%). More respondents preferred to speak Ukrainian (46%) than Russian (38%) with 16% preferring to speak both in equal manner.

A poll held November 2009 revealed that 54.7% of the population of Ukraine believed the language issue in Ukraine was irrelevant, that each person could speak the language he or she preferred and that a lot more important problems existed in the country; 14.7% of those polled stated that the language issue was an urgent problem that could not be postponed and that calls for immediate resolution; another 28.3% believed that, while the language issue needed to be resolved, this could be postponed.

An August 2011 poll by Razumkov Centre showed that 53.3% of the respondents use the Ukrainian language in everyday life, while 44.5% use Russian.

In a May 2012 poll by RATING 50% of respondents considered Ukrainian their native language, 29% Russian, 20% consider both Ukrainian and Russian their mother tongue and 1% considered a different language their native language.

And the tards wanted to "cancel" the Russian language. If I remember the chronological order of the events correctly, the veto by the current president ak-71 mentioned came after the protests have significantly increased after the ban of Russian was passed through their parliament. I do believe that this is one of the main reasons things are where they are right now. Guess what the percentage of people in Luhansk and Donetsk whose native language is Russian? Or Crimea, but Crimea question is closed solid at this point, IMO, so it does not really matter.

Hungary is pooping bricks right now, after the recent law was passed by the parliament and signed by the president. And there are only 157,000 (2001 data) people whose native language is Hungarian compared to 8,330,000 (also 2001 data) whose native language is Russian. LOL.

Originally Posted by ak-71

I don't think it was the main reason for separatism and civil war, but illustrates anti-Russian policy, though if you can speak Russian or Ukrainian watch meetings of this time youtube, you will see that language use is just the tip of the iceberg, I am sure normal people will be appalled by slogans to "hang Russians on branches" and others of a sort.

I have seen plenty with English subtitles on youtube when things have been just picking up the speed. There were plenty; I don't know if there are many now.

[ak-71]

.
Not the same president, not Poroshenko, but close enough.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Enough of Urban Legends, you seem like a reasonable guy.
Can you imagine flooding territory from Calgary to Red Deer with few thousands of regular Russian troops, as in regular army, with support structure and all (that's what Kiev used to claim), then run regular OSCE patrols, journalists for three years and still have nothing, but BS Facebook photos for evidence? Well, I guess you can, me - not so much, I, actually, have an idea how it works in Russian army. What ever - we talked about it for ages already. I'm sure Russia is involved (called "proxy war" I guess) , but I know that main problem is a civil war in progress in Ukraine and nobody will acknowledge this fact and deal with it till people in the West buy the occupation story. Too sad.
RT is just as BS as CBC and even as CNN - no direct orders are even necessary by now, agenda is set in stone for each of them in one way or another.
I just find CNN to be the funniest of the three, it's insulting to think that they believe that, as a listener, I can actually buy this crazy BS they are selling, but still funny and getting funnier.

PS. Blogging sounds good. Can you hook me up? I'm definitely missing out.

Lots of proof in many places my friend. Just not in Russian media. Since Russian media is run by Putin...not surprising.



https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...l-army/375932/

http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...d-trump-2016-7

You were raised in Russia. Brain washed everyday like any cult to insta believe that any talk contrary to Russian media is lies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...esearch_Agency

Research it. Open your eyes. Or just enjoy the extra income.

In the end. Anyone saying they hate Putin. Trust me about everything I say. Then gets all their "believed" info from Russian news is telling.

You seem like a nice guy. Think outside the box you grew up in.

CNN is a combination of owner politics and entertainment. Not news for the most part. In the west you take info skeptically and build on it to get the real picture.

Crimea was a Russian sponsored attack. The conflict in the rest of Ukraine was started by Russian posing as nazi Ukrainians. I have no doubt Russia is to blame for the conflict and murder of the commercial jet passengers.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Bub

Indeed. That is what I was referring to, as well as the new law that came in to place just a few days ago converting all of their schooling to strictly Ukrainian by 2020 (unless I am remembering the dates wrong). And this is in the 21th century in a "European" country craving to become a part of the EU. LOL. It is especially "funny" because (from Wikipedia)

Ridiculous, isn't it? Nearly third of the population has Russian as the native language. This is compared to 56.9% vs. 21.3% for English vs. French here in Canada! ( according to another Wikipedia page on Canada)

The numbers tell you something, don't they? If you continue reading the same Wikipedia article

And the tards wanted to "cancel" the Russian language. If I remember the chronological order of the events correctly, the veto by the current president ak-71 mentioned came after the protests have significantly increased after the ban of Russian was passed through their parliament. I do believe that this is one of the main reasons things are where they are right now. Guess what the percentage of people in Luhansk and Donetsk whose native language is Russian? Or Crimea, but Crimea question is closed solid at this point, IMO, so it does not really matter.

Hungary is pooping bricks right now, after the recent law was passed by the parliament and signed by the president. And there are only 157,000 (2001 data) people whose native language is Hungarian compared to 8,330,000 (also 2001 data) whose native language is Russian. LOL.

I have seen plenty with English subtitles on youtube when things have been just picking up the speed. There were plenty; I don't know if there are many now.

Who wants to cancel a language?

Is this statement wrong?

Language policy in Ukraine is based on its Constitution, international obligations, and 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy" (before 2012, the 1989 law "On the languages in the Ukrainian SSR" was in force).

The Ukrainian language is the state language of Ukraine. The State has to ensure the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout the entire territory of Ukraine (Article 10 of the Constitution of Ukraine adopted in 1996). Other languages spoken in Ukraine are guaranteed constitutional protection. The Russian language in Ukraine is recognized as the language of a national minority. It is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution (Article 10): "In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed".[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang...icy_in_Ukraine

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Who wants to cancel a language?

Is this statement wrong?

Language policy in Ukraine is based on its Constitution, international obligations, and 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy" (before 2012, the 1989 law "On the languages in the Ukrainian SSR" was in force).

The Ukrainian language is the state language of Ukraine. The State has to ensure the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout the entire territory of Ukraine (Article 10 of the Constitution of Ukraine adopted in 1996). Other languages spoken in Ukraine are guaranteed constitutional protection. The Russian language in Ukraine is recognized as the language of a national minority. It is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution (Article 10): "In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed".[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang...icy_in_Ukraine

"The bill was adopted without any debate amid fistfights in the Ukrainian Parliament building on 3 July 2012. The opposition protested that the procedure of adopting the law was not respected.[7][8] The law came into force on 10 August 2012.[2] Since then various cities and regions of Ukraine declared Russian a regional language in their jurisdictions.[9] Three minor settlements did the same for, respectively, Hungarian, Moldovan and Romanian.[10] Other cities and regions declared their opposition to this law.[11] A proposal to repeal the law was paused on 28 February 2014 by acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, who ordered drafting of a new law to "accommodate the interests of both eastern and western Ukraine and of all ethnic groups and minorities."[12][13] Since October 2014 the Constitutional Court of Ukraine is reviewing the constitutionality of the law.[14]"

"On February 23, 2014, the second day after the flight of Viktor Yanukovich, while in a parliamentary session, a deputy from the "Batkivshchina" party, Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, moved to include in the agenda a bill to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy". The motion was carried with 86% of the votes in favour—232 deputies in favour vs 37 opposed against the required minimum of 226 of 334 votes. The bill was included in the agenda, immediately put to a vote with no debate and approved with the same 232 voting in favour. The bill would have made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.[12][46]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...icy_in_Ukraine

It just occurred to me that we were referencing the same source . Must be thinking inside different boxes.

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Lots of proof in many places my friend. Just not in Russian media. Since Russian media is run by Putin...not surprising.



https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...l-army/375932/

http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...d-trump-2016-7

You were raised in Russia. Brain washed everyday like any cult to insta believe that any talk contrary to Russian media is lies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...esearch_Agency

Research it. Open your eyes. Or just enjoy the extra income.

In the end. Anyone saying they hate Putin. Trust me about everything I say. Then gets all their "believed" info from Russian news is telling.

You seem like a nice guy. Think outside the box you grew up in.

CNN is a combination of owner politics and entertainment. Not news for the most part. In the west you take info skeptically and build on it to get the real picture.

Crimea was a Russian sponsored attack. The conflict in the rest of Ukraine was started by Russian posing as nazi Ukrainians. I have no doubt Russia is to blame for the conflict and murder of the commercial jet passengers.

Sandance, look at these Russians posing as nazi Ukranians and tell me, do you really believe what you just said?
In case you don't speak Ukrainian - they shout "[hang] Russians on the branches"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofEF5l72sjQ

[shooter12]

X2 Sundancefisher on your post about Kremlin trolls.
You nailed it here, too many on this forum as well.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Sandance, look at these Russians posing as nazi Ukranians and tell me, do you really believe what you just said?
In case you don't speak Ukrainian - they shout "[hang] Russians on the branches"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofEF5l72sjQ

And why would Russians pose as nazi Ukranians only to scream "hang Russians from branches"?

Listen to Obama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QAXmf5_EOs

[shooter12]

In case you don't speak Ukrainian - they shout "[hang] Russians on the branches"

I am not sure about Sundancefisher but I am fluent in both Russian and Ukranian.
In your youtube people shouting " to hang moskolyaky" not Russians.
I am sure you are aware of the difference between "moskal" and "Russian"
Don't you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by shooter12

In case you don't speak Ukrainian - they shout "[hang] Russians on the branches"

I am not sure about Sundancefisher but I am fluent in both Russian and Ukranian.
In your youtube people shouting " to hang moskolyaky" not Russians.
I am sure you are aware of the difference between "moskal" and "Russian"
Don't you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal

"Today it has become an ethnic slur referring to the Russians living in Russia used in Ukraine"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal

If Russian students were shouting something like that at a high school gathering they would end up in police and everybody I know in Russia would be ashamed for the nation. Do you really defend this?

PS. I would much rather prefer peaceful prosperous Ukraine without raging civil war, potential NATO bases and anti-Anybody agenda, but I guess Ukraine is living though what it and the West wanted. Not really my business anyway, I have not even visited Ukraine in years and have no plans to go there in the future.

[shooter12]

I would much rather prefer peaceful prosperous Ukraine without raging civil war

Drop it right there AK -71.

There is no civil war in Ukraine of any kind but Russian regular army troops/mercenaries , choose whichever you are more comfortable with, and local collaborants, and until all this will not get out from there , there will be no peace .

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by shooter12

I would much rather prefer peaceful prosperous Ukraine without raging civil war

Drop it right there AK -71.

There is no civil war in Ukraine of any kind but Russian regular army troops/mercenaries , choose whichever you are more comfortable with, and local collaborants, and until all this will not get out from there , there will be no peace .

Drop you "Russian regular army" stupidity, it became laughable, if you never served, I have an analogy for you - it's like flooding Alberta with journalists and international patrols and still not being able to gather any evidence of oil production in 3 years- it's just plain stupid.
But I guess if all your knowledge about how regular army operates comes from Hollywood movies and CNN "news" - you will buy this BS.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Drop you "Russian regular army" stupidity, it became laughable, if you never served, I have an analogy for you - it's like flooding Alberta with journalists and international patrols and still not being able to gather any evidence of oil production in 3 years- it's just plain stupid.
But I guess if all your knowledge about how regular army operates comes from Hollywood movies and CNN "news" - you will buy this BS.

Captured "Freedom Fighters" in Ukraine have stated that regular army personnel have shed their uniforms and simply crossed the border to fight against the Ukrainian army. you can stop the charade, it is transparent to everyone.

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by barsik

Captured "Freedom Fighters" in Ukraine have stated that regular army personnel have shed their uniforms and simply crossed the border to fight against the Ukrainian army. you can stop the charade, it is transparent to everyone.

1. If you think that regular army is just some guys with AK-74, you have no idea what you are talking about.
2. Ukraine, with it's conscript army and drafts almost till the "revolution" (2013) trained plenty of regular guys with AK-74 as well as other specialists in Eastern Ukraine to pretty much the same level as "regular Russian army".

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

"The bill was adopted without any debate amid fistfights in the Ukrainian Parliament building on 3 July 2012. The opposition protested that the procedure of adopting the law was not respected.[7][8] The law came into force on 10 August 2012.[2] Since then various cities and regions of Ukraine declared Russian a regional language in their jurisdictions.[9] Three minor settlements did the same for, respectively, Hungarian, Moldovan and Romanian.[10] Other cities and regions declared their opposition to this law.[11] A proposal to repeal the law was paused on 28 February 2014 by acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, who ordered drafting of a new law to "accommodate the interests of both eastern and western Ukraine and of all ethnic groups and minorities."[12][13] Since October 2014 the Constitutional Court of Ukraine is reviewing the constitutionality of the law.[14]"

"On February 23, 2014, the second day after the flight of Viktor Yanukovich, while in a parliamentary session, a deputy from the "Batkivshchina" party, Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, moved to include in the agenda a bill to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy". The motion was carried with 86% of the votes in favour—232 deputies in favour vs 37 opposed against the required minimum of 226 of 334 votes. The bill was included in the agenda, immediately put to a vote with no debate and approved with the same 232 voting in favour. The bill would have made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.[12][46]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...icy_in_Ukraine

It just occurred to me that we were referencing the same source . Must be thinking inside different boxes.

I read that. I was referencing cancelling Russian. Doesn't seem to be the case. Rather wanting to not be bilingual?

In the face of what Russia has done no wonder anti sentiments have happened. To bad Russia meddled so strongly in the Ukraine.

I actually have Russian and Ukrainian friends so I hear both sides.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Drop you "Russian regular army" stupidity, it became laughable, if you never served, I have an analogy for you - it's like flooding Alberta with journalists and international patrols and still not being able to gather any evidence of oil production in 3 years- it's just plain stupid.
But I guess if all your knowledge about how regular army operates comes from Hollywood movies and CNN "news" - you will buy this BS.

Are you blind?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod.../#59eed8d83809


SEP 6, 2016 @ 03:54 PM 16,592 The Little Black Book of Billionaire Secrets
Russian Combat Medals Put Lie To Putin's Claim Of No Russian Troops In Ukraine


Paul Roderick Gregory , CONTRIBUTOR
I cover domestic and world economics from a free-market perspective.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.

Supporters of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" take part in a rally at Saur Mogyla Memorial on September 7, 2015 to mark the anniversary of Donetsk's liberation from occupation during World War II. Ukraine's warring sides marked a week without heavy fighting Monday in a tentatively encouraging change to a 17-month war that has debilitated Western relations with Russia and unsettled eastern Europe. (ALEKSEY FILIPPOV/AFP/Getty Images)
Vladimir Putin was cynically playing with words when he declared, on his annual broadcast to the Russian people on April 16, 2015: “I can tell you outright and unequivocally [my italics] that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine.” Russian troops are indeed in Ukraine, but under the fiction that they signed "separation documents" from the army before being shipped to the Ukraine combat zone. Even though many fight under the same Russian commander and in their old unit, they are no longer officially part of the Russian army, according to Putin’s twisted narrative.

There is no doubt that Russian troops have fought and are fighting in Ukraine, contrary to Putin’s “not one Russian soldier” assertion. The civic organization, Cargo 200, publishes names, photos, addresses, and military records of 167 regular troops “killed” and 187 “MIA” and 305 mercenaries “killed” and 796 “MIA.” The artillery and tank warfare in Ukraine leaves behind unidentifiable body parts. Most of the MIAs, therefore, are really KIAs. The Cargo 200 figures are underestimates because families of fallen soldiers risk losing death benefits if they talk. Societies of Russian Mothers gather information from grieving families to arrive at casualty figures of up to 3,500 KIA. Young Russian soldiers in Ukraine routinely post pictures on vKontakte (a Russian version of Facebook) of themselves in Ukraine and identify their unit. A vKontake habitué going silent is a sign of yet another combat death. We will not have an authoritative figure on Russian soldier deaths in Ukraine as long as Putin keeps such casualties a state secret.

There are other sources. Ukrainian intelligence has just published the names, ranks, and photographs of the fifty Russian officers directing Russian forces in East Ukraine. Representatives of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe have reported the presence of Russian troops in the Donbass for over two years.


Putin has no choice but to deny the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine. According to the Kremlin’s narrative, Russia is only an interested by-stander in Ukraine’s “civil war” in which brave “separatists” or “insurgents” are defending their homes from rabid neo-Nazi Ukrainian nationalists. Russia is not at war with Ukraine; so how can Russian soldiers be involved when Russia has no combat operations in Ukraine? But, argues Putin, Russia cannot keep its patriots from lending a voluntary hand to their Novorossiya brethren. Yes, there are Russian citizens fighting in Ukraine, but they have nothing to do with Russia and its military forces.

The English NGO, Bellingcat, has been a persistent thorn in the side of Putin’s Ukraine narrative. Using open sources, Bellingcat demonstrated that MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile system operated by a Russian crew that fled back to its home base in Russia after realizing they had shot down a civilian aircraft.

In its latest contribution, Bellingcat demolishes Putin’s “no combat operations = no Russian soldiers” myth. Bellingcat demonstrates that thousands of Russian soldiers have been awarded the highest honors of the Russian Federation for bravery/distinction in combat during a time when the only hot war going was in Ukraine. If Russia has no combat operations in Ukraine, why is it awarding its servicemen the highest medals for bravery in combat? (Russia’s Syria operations did not begin until September 2015 and then with no ground troops).

Bellingcat gathered images of the medals and dates of the awards posted on social media by proud soldier recipients. Insofar as the Russian medals engrave the cumulative number of medals as of the award date, the numbering system reveals the number of medals awarded between two award dates. The accompanying figure shows awards for distinction in combat granted by the Russian Ministry of Defense between July 2014 and February 2016. They correlate closely with known military operations and with the Minsk 2 “ceasefire.”

thumbnail_AWARDSXL

The figures of awards for distinction in combat operations correlate with Russian military operations in Ukraine: During the early days of the Donbas conflict (Spring 2014), military commanders and civil administrators on assignment from Moscow fought the disorganized Ukrainian army largely with paid “volunteers.” As Ukraine forces surrounded Russian-directed mercenary forces in the summer of 2014, Russia invaded with regular forces, which decimated Ukrainian forces in battles at Donetsk Airport (September 2014-January 2015) and Ilovaisk (August to September 2014) Russia’s winter offensive culminated in the slaughter of Ukrainian troops caught in the Debaltseve cauldron (January 2015). These defeats at the hands of regular Russian units forced Ukraine into the unfavorable Minsk 2 agreement of February 2015. More than a year and a half later, fighting continues along the “cease fire” zone, casualties continue, the border remains under Russian control, and awards for distinction in combat are much lower.

Bellingcat’s analysis shows 4,300 medals “For Distinction in Combat” awarded between July 11, 2014 and February 2016. The number rises to some ten thousand if all four medals for bravery in combat are counted. (Chechnya and Georgia do not play a role during this period, only Ukraine). We do not know what proportion of Russian soldiers who served in Ukraine in regular units received combat medals. If one out of five, then 50,000 Russian regular troops would have served in Ukraine at one time or another during the July 2014 to February 2016 period.

Bellingcat outsmarted the Russian military with its medals count. Apparently, commanders have now forbidden recipients to upload images of their awards. What a strange country that forbids its “heroes” from displaying the honors their country has bestowed upon them!

Thoughtful people might ask: Why bother with yet another proof that Putin lied about Russian troops in Ukraine. The answer should be obvious to all except fools, they say. The Ukraine military definitely understands that they were being mowed down by regular Russian regiments starting in July of 2014, escalating to the slaughter at Debaltseve. Russian military and intelligence generals have been killed on the field of battle, and such deaths do not go unnoticed. Regular Russian troops have been captured. Putin’s lie is obvious, so why go through the trouble of debunking it?

There are four reasons why disproving Putin’s “not one Russian soldier in Ukraine” lie is important:

First: a majority of the Russian people believe it

Russians concede that Russian citizens are fighting in Ukraine but accept Putin’s story that they are volunteers or mercenaries. For Russian citizens this is an important distinction: Volunteers and mercenaries have chosen to put themselves in harm’s way; their deaths or maiming therefore is a matter of personal choice. It is another matter entirely if young conscripts are fighting and dying in Ukraine for no apparent reason.

Second: Russian soldiers = Russian invasion

The Kremlin narrative of “no Russian soldiers” in Ukraine has succeeded in dictating the vocabulary of the Russian-Ukrainian war. The Western news media describe the Ukrainian conflict as a “civil war.” Combatants on the Russian side are “separatists,” “insurgents,” or “rebels,” terms that suggest warriors of conscience fighting for a cause in which they believe. These terms are often softened by adding “Russian-backed,” but the linguistic damage has already been done. Rarely do we encounter language like “Russian troops fighting in Ukraine” or “separatists commanded and supplied by Russian officers and intelligence agents.”

Third: 'civil war' narrative puts separatists on equal footing with Kiev

Third, the fiction that the Ukraine army is being either defeated or fought to a standstill by “separatists” elevates Ukraine’s opponents to an independent political status deserving of a place at the table. The vocabulary of the Russian-Ukraine War lies at the heart of an eventual peace settlement. Will it be Putin’s federalization that gives the “separatists” veto power over Ukrainian policy? Or will it be Ukraine’s decentralization that preserves Ukraine as a unitary state while giving regions more autonomy over local affairs?

Fourth: Denial gives the West an excuse for inaction

Fourth, the Kremlin’s fig leaves that cast slight shadows of doubt on the truth provide a disorganized, timid, and even cowardly West a reason for inaction. We all know that a Russian missile shot down MH17 and that there are regular Russian troops in east Ukraine, but as long as there is a one in a thousand chance of another explanation, we have a reason to hold back. After all, isn’t Russia a “great nation?” Shouldn’t we give their explanations a hearing no matter how crazy?

There will be no peace until we call the Russian narrative for what it is – a lie. In the meantime, the words we use matter in determining the eventual outcome and burning Putin’s fig leaves remains a worthwhile activity.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Sandance, look at these Russians posing as nazi Ukranians and tell me, do you really believe what you just said?
In case you don't speak Ukrainian - they shout "[hang] Russians on the branches"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofEF5l72sjQ

It is we'll know the Russian propaganda machine targeted the Ukraine and Crimea hard before Russia launched the invasion into the Ukraine. Tanks, missiles, troops.

Well known facts.

Set up a justification that fills state run media and the population believes and falls in line.

Hence the sanctions.

[ak-71]

Ukraine has about 50 000 - 90 000 by different estimates involved in war with Eastern Ukraine, so judging by couple disastrous events when thousands got themselves surrounded (Debaltseve is probably the most well known)- I would guess that in your opinion Russia has similar number of troops there (considering that they were not strictly defensive there). I would also assume that in you mind these are not some Hollywood style Rambos, but normal regular units. Look-up how motor-rifle brigade is organized, then think about how many brigades it would take to get to the numbers needed. Take into account that distance from Lugansk to Doneck is roughly 200 km.
How in a hell can you miss this monster on such a small territory??? Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? It's few times more than whole Canadian army crammed in between Calgary and Red Deer for three years, and EU patrols still can't find it???

Just face it - it is not a mystical invasion by invisible army with few locals , but a full fledged civil war, where Russia, I am sure, supports separatists, but not with regular army. There whole bunch of foreigner fighting on both sides as well.
Sooner people in the west wake up and admit civil war in Ukraine, sooner it will have a chance to stop.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Ukraine has about 50 000 - 90 000 by different estimates involved in war with Eastern Ukraine, so judging by couple disastrous events when thousands got themselves surrounded (Debaltseve is probably the most well known)- I would guess that in your opinion Russia has similar number of troops there (considering that they were not strictly defensive there). I would also assume that in you mind these are not some Hollywood style Rambos, but normal regular units. Look-up how motor-rifle brigade is organized, then think about how many brigades it would take to get to the numbers needed. Take into account that distance from Lugansk to Doneck is roughly 200 km.
How in a hell can you miss this monster on such a small territory??? Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? It's few times more than whole Canadian army crammed in between Calgary and Red Deer for three years, and EU patrols still can't find it???

Just face it - it is not a mystical invasion by invisible army with few locals , but a full fledged civil war, where Russia, I am sure, supports separatists, but not with regular army. There whole bunch of foreigner fighting on both sides as well.
Sooner people in the west wake up and admit civil war in Ukraine, sooner it will have a chance to stop.

Fact.

Attackers crossed from Russia into Ukraine well armed and well trained
International observers state Russia has troops on the ground
Medals are being awarded to Russian troops killed in Ukraine
Russian directly took over foreign countries land in Crimea
Ukraine increased armed forces after being attacked.
Russian missile killed all on a commercial airline fired from those Russian backed troops.
Russian government totally controls all media in Russia

Nothing is in question except you are not there. I am not there. You only believe Russian media even though everyone else contradicts Russian media. The overwhelming facts dispute your claims.

Let's just agree to not agree.

You are either unwilling to accept Russian news is propaganda or you are part of that propaganda.

I just am amazed whenever someone leaves their "homeland" and can't leave the propaganda behind.

Remember you can still love the people of Russia yet acknowledge the control the government has around what they know and believe.

Russia is just a small step above China sensorship and they are just above North Korea. All three governments teeter on lies.

[ak-71]

Fact: The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko said: “We (Ukrainian army) are not engaged in combat operations against the Russian army..”
Russian citizens in unlawful armed groups - yes, army - no.
Apparently, you Sundance know better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0x0mnrq9j4

Define you understanding "regular army" for me, please, is it inline with what I described in my previous post, after all you are talking about invasion here, right? Simple question, just yes or no.

[purgatory.sv]

Regular can be defined in many ways?

I wish to be regular!!!


I do not know how many removed from the situation you may be, but i do believe you believe.

My ancestors who came to this nation lost all .

Bicker all you want , leave what was left behind and remember the opportunity we now have?

My grandfather farmed clay and failed,but he valued family.

I am still alive .

The continent and country being discussed has always been in turmoil.

Interpretation is now open due to media.

I am canadian.

Sorry born in a military base in manitoba,so i guess i am canadian?

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Fact.

Attackers crossed from Russia into Ukraine well armed and well trained
International observers state Russia has troops on the ground
Medals are being awarded to Russian troops killed in Ukraine
Russian directly took over foreign countries land in Crimea
Ukraine increased armed forces after being attacked.
Russian missile killed all on a commercial airline fired from those Russian backed troops.
Russian government totally controls all media in Russia

Nothing is in question except you are not there. I am not there. You only believe Russian media even though everyone else contradicts Russian media. The overwhelming facts dispute your claims.

Let's just agree to not agree.

You are either unwilling to accept Russian news is propaganda or you are part of that propaganda.

I just am amazed whenever someone leaves their "homeland" and can't leave the propaganda behind.

Remember you can still love the people of Russia yet acknowledge the control the government has around what they know and believe.

Russia is just a small step above China sensorship and they are just above North Korea. All three governments teeter on lies.

Nope, I am just pro-common sense, and you seem willing to throw your's out of the window if it fits your anti-Russian bias.
Didn't your propaganda lie to you before? Remember "evidence " of WMDs in Iraq ?
Some people just don't want to even attempt to form their own opinion, even when the stories they repeat after media make absolutely no sense.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak-71

Fact: The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko said: “We (Ukrainian army) are not engaged in combat operations against the Russian army..”
Russian citizens in unlawful armed groups - yes, army - no.
Apparently, you Sundance know better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0x0mnrq9j4

Define you understanding "regular army" for me, please, is it inline with what I described in my previous post, after all you are talking about invasion here, right? Simple question, just yes or no.

http://www.newsweek.com/nolan-peters...nt-line-555141

Russian Troops Man Ukraine Rebels' Front Line

Interviews with Ukrainian military stating Russian soldiers man the front lines. Strong support from Russian military.

Caught Russians state they were there on their own and not supported by Russia. There on "holiday" helping out. Thousands of them. LOL.

This isn't US telling people amount WMD...this is about absolutely everything pointing to the fact Russia is in Ukraine...except Russian state media saying otherwise.

Even Russia is giving war medals to the dead in the Ukrainian war.

You can't honestly believe that there is no plan by Russia to support annexation of Ukraine via this conflict and that Russia has not been piling on the propaganda and helping out with troops and munitions. That Russia is doing nothing to support their war efforts.

Please. Don't make me chuckle while drinking coffee in the morning.