Alberta Separation from Canada

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dean2

It can be done, there are definitely complexities but nothing a few smart people cannot figure out how to do. Most of the Rhetoric you see in the media about how impossible it would be is strictly pandering to a centralist agenda, it does not reflect truthful reality. Some of you might find it interesting that since 1990 alone there have been 34 NEW countries created, some by separation, some by becoming independent from the colonial power ruling them etc. Short prece



So tell me again how an area like Alberta, Saskatchewan and Western B.C./, with a highly educated population, huge natural resources and well developed economies could not accomplish what Namibia and Serbia managed to do.

This is an interesting comparison. A bit shocking really. You did mention packing up and leaving this country if the liberals returned to power. I’m curious if any of the above countries would make the short list as a destination?

[riden]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

How about we fix the Senate? Thats what the bloody thing is supposed to do anyway. I remember Byfield's Triple E proposals from when I was a kid, not sure how i feel about the elected part but just give each province 10 seats and boom, fixed.

It's the most obvious answer isn't it?

But I am so cynical, I must be old. I find it hard to believe central Canada will turn over much power ever. And the flip side to any change in the Senate is, as western Canada gains power, so will the Maritimes. That is the only way it would sell and I think that would just create brand new problems empowering the Maritimes. So....... it's just more of the same.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by riden

It's the most obvious answer isn't it?

But I am so cynical, I must be old. I find it hard to believe central Canada will turn over much power ever. And the flip side to any change in the Senate is, as western Canada gains power, so will the Maritimes. That is the only way it would sell and I think that would just create brand new problems empowering the Maritimes. So....... it's just more of the same.

I don't see the Maritimes as a barrier to fixing the senate but I agree that Ontarible and Keebek would not allow any erosion of their privileged position of power in Canada as we know it.

The only way I see to fix our present situation is separation.
I would back any form that may take.

I think our best bet would be to join the USA but would support any separation initiative no matter what form it may take.

Make no mistake. even if central Canada did allow Senate reform, you can bet your last dollar that they would manipulate that change to keep the political power as it is.

What they would offer would be all smoke and mirrors.
Remember, they control federal politics, and will continue to do so as long as possible.

[amosfella]

Ever wonder why Harper didn't change the Senate? The reason is actually very simple. In Ho Canada by Russel Rogers Smith, he states that in the Colonial Consolidation talks, Quebec was guaranteed a certain ratio of extra seats in order to join. There was also a minimum ratio of extra MPs that they got to protect their French heritage and culture.

So, anytime someone starts talking about changing the seats and Senate to be more fair, Quebec starts to threaten to leave.

The problems are irreparable because of this.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Ever wonder why Harper didn't change the Senate? The reason is actually very simple. In Ho Canada by Russel Rogers Smith, he states that in the Colonial Consolidation talks, Quebec was guaranteed a certain ratio of extra seats in order to join. There was also a minimum ratio of extra MPs that they got to protect their French heritage and culture.

So, anytime someone starts talking about changing the seats and Senate to be more fair, Quebec starts to threaten to leave.

The problems are irreparable because of this.

Time to let them leave! Problem solved!

[ctd]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Ever wonder why Harper didn't change the Senate? The reason is actually very simple. In Ho Canada by Russel Rogers Smith, he states that in the Colonial Consolidation talks, Quebec was guaranteed a certain ratio of extra seats in order to join. There was also a minimum ratio of extra MPs that they got to protect their French heritage and culture.

So, anytime someone starts talking about changing the seats and Senate to be more fair, Quebec starts to threaten to leave.

The problems are irreparable because of this.

Can you provide reference to this? Curious

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by ctd

Can you provide reference to this? Curious

Read the book Ho Canada. PM me your address if you can't find it. It seems to get scrubbed from google search results very quickly.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Read the book Ho Canada. PM me your address if you can't find it. It seems to get scrubbed from google search results very quickly.

Thank I will look it up

[riden]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I don't see the Maritimes as a barrier to fixing the senate but I agree that Ontarible and Keebek would not allow any erosion of their privileged position of power in Canada as we know it.

The only way I see to fix our present situation is separation.
I would back any form that may take.

I think our best bet would be to join the USA but would support any separation initiative no matter what form it may take.

Make no mistake. even if central Canada did allow Senate reform, you can bet your last dollar that they would manipulate that change to keep the political power as it is.

What they would offer would be all smoke and mirrors.
Remember, they control federal politics, and will continue to do so as long as possible.

I'm not saying the Maritimes would be a barrier to Senate reform, I think they would be all over reform too. But any change that empowers the west, would also have to empower the Maritimes to fly. I don't see any other way this would work?


I am also saying Conservatives in the Maritimes are further left than Liberals in Alberta and empowering them would move our entire country further left.

[Redhorse Ranch]

Plenty of reluctant but resolute separatists like me in the West and more converts every day. The pathway to freedom is no doubt difficult but a worthwhile task. We're "landlocked" to be sure, but if we are separate, the ROC is landlocked from the TPP as well. No more Yang Ming trains headed east without our say-so. I'd bet a bargaining session would happen right quick....

[raab]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

And how do you think we will get our oil to market if we separate? And don't tell me that international law says we have to have a line to a sea port. Who will enforce that, the UN. Good luck with that, they are already anti oil. The Canadian gov. will stall so long oil won't even be the energy source of choice by then.

We have to get part of British Columbia, the Yukon or NWT’s to come with us. If not we join the US and the Rockefeller anti oil campaign stops.

[DanJ]

Talk of Western seperation that does not factor in TMX and the first nations is folly. Personally, I suspect Junior is going to gift TMX to a native consortium in the name of reconciliation, giving them a de facto veto over just about everything.

[RO CC]

So now Encana announced they are moving just south of the border!!
Probably it is time we move the border to the north and make western Canada the 51st.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by riden

I'm not saying the Maritimes would be a barrier to Senate reform, I think they would be all over reform too. But any change that empowers the west, would also have to empower the Maritimes to fly. I don't see any other way this would work?


I am also saying Conservatives in the Maritimes are further left than Liberals in Alberta and empowering them would move our entire country further left.

Agreed.

I'm sure the Maritimes have many of the same grievances we do, and I for one would welcome their input in this.

I actually don't care what side of the political spectrum a person is on, so long as each gets fair and equal treatment.

I wouldn't even object to Trudeau being in power, if the election was fair and equal.

Not that I agree with Liberal ideology but that I do agree with the principals of democratic governance. Which we don't have.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Agreed.


I wouldn't even object to Trudeau being in power, if the election was fair and equal.

Not that I agree with Liberal ideology but that I do agree with the principals of democratic governance. Which we don't have.

I'm certain you and I voted for the same party, however, do you really feel the election wasn't fair and democratic? That's a big statement.

I am genuinely curious, and by no means, looking to incite you in any way.

I have benefited from listening to your years of wisdom and experience on many issues - but this comment surprises me.

I'm not happy with the results, but I accept the process as fair and democratic.

[lmtada]

Wexit letter to Kenney

https://wexitcanada.com/Open-Letter-...son-Kenney.pdf

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by EZM

I'm certain you and I voted for the same party, however, do you really feel the election wasn't fair and democratic? That's a big statement.

I am genuinely curious, and by no means, looking to incite you in any way.

I have benefited from listening to your years of wisdom and experience on many issues - but this comment surprises me.

I'm not happy with the results, but I accept the process as fair and democratic.

Democratic? : Yes

Fair?: Clearly a hard No. The factual numbers from legitimate gov’t sources proving this are in the linked thread. We've got a lot of long term Liberal Gerrymandering to undo/correct before there's a fair election in Canada. There’s a typo that I can’t edit on the New Brunswick average but it’s pretty obvious:


http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=371506

[Icallwalleyepickerel]

A good template as to where to start the process...

https://apple.news/AzjC3EsHKTTGYluYstsEdKA

[Eagle Trapper]

I certainly hope to never see the U.S involved in taking over Alberta or having a hand in it. There are many resources here they would love to have. Albertans would be trampled like a door greeter on black Friday

[HunterDave]

Initially, I supported the Wexit movement but now I feel that it is doomed to fail. They held a rally in Edmonton that turned into a Conservative bashing fiasco that didn’t go over well with many. Then there’s the Mickey Mouse move of having an upside down Maple Leaf flag as a backdrop. I don’t even want to go there. I don’t think that the movement’s leadership could organize a cluster fluff in a ho house let alone organize a province seceding from the confederation. Very disappointing to say the least.

There is no plan per se except that they are going to create a federal Wexit political party so everyone will vote for it and they will have the same leverage as The Bloc in QC. How friggin dumb is that? That will split the Conservative vote ultimately ensuring that the Liberals are perpetually elected and in power. Hello......does a PC/Wildrose vote split ring any bells?

Regardless, for now they are keeping Western separation in the news and maybe it’ll light a fire under Justin’s arse to act on Western alienation. If the movement accomplishes that they will have then outlived their usefulness and will disappear like a fart in the wind.

[Mb-MBR]

I'm sure the liberals are just giddish with Wexit, another fracture group for the right wingers that will further diminish the PC base....

[Scott h]

Interesting idea in the paper today. Not on separating, but merely on Alberta splitting from the CCP. As Alberta pays a disproportionate amount into the plan, due to its high wage earners, it may shake a few people up across the country if Alberta decided to go it on their own. Albertas higher wage earners and a younger population would virtually guarantee that those in other provinces would immediately have to start paying more into CPP. Also all those out of province workers would be required to pay into an Alberta pension plan thereby depriving other provinces of those funds. It would be like going to a financial planner for the rest of the country and finding out that your plans for retirement may not be a you assumed. Nothing like looking at cold hard numbers to focus the attention.

[thumper]

Good article in today's National Post, advocating Alberta start by doing what Quebec has already done: Withdraw from the CPP (which Que did in 1966), take over collection of all taxes, take over border patrol, policing (Provincial Police Force), and immigration. And, opt out of any new Health Care or Social program.

That would be a good start, and certainly illustrate that Alberta is serious about reform or independence.

[Geraldsh]

That sounds like a good move - something we can get done relatively quick. It would show we mean business and mollify some of the Wexit crowd into sober second thought. I am not saying kill Wexit right now but it needs a better name and better leadership to succeed at anything other than destroying the conservative vote.

Edit referring to cpp, not sure about validity of policing provincially

[IronNoggin]

Wheatland County in southern Alberta passed a resolution on Tuesday demanding changes in confederation – that if rejected by Ottawa – would trigger a referendum on Alberta’s independence.

The motion calls for the province’s withdrawal from the Canada Pension Plan, a start to collecting it’s own income tax, the end of equalization payments, Senate reform, replacing the RCMP and better control over immigration into Alberta.

Wilson’s resolution says if those issues aren’t dealt with then a referendum on independence would be held Oct. 18, 2021.

https://westernstandardonline.com/20...ce-referendum/

[IronNoggin]

'Marching towards separation': Wexit Alberta applies to become registered party

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/marc...arty-1.4668903

[daveyn]

It is the threat of separation that gives Quebec its power. You don't actually have to separate but as long as a credible threat is there then the feds will work very hard (read concessions) to keep you in confederation. Quebec doesn't want to seperate, they just want us to think they want to separate, that's where the leverage comes from.
We don't need to leave and I wouldn't want to leave, but its not a bad idea to let people think we want to leave.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by lmtada

Wexit letter to Kenney

https://wexitcanada.com/Open-Letter-...son-Kenney.pdf

The name on that letter carries the same amount of weight as a twice wiped piece of toilet paper.

Easy to find.

[RACKER]

This separation talk to me is a bunch of hot air. There is zero chance of this ever happening. People are just mad that JT got back in. We should use our voice to implement policies and programs to strengthen our economy. It’s not going to be easy or a quick fix. People out east view this movement just as we view Greta. If the conservatives got in we would never be having this discussion but that doesn’t mean anything would be better with our economy.

[thumper]

Forget the bluffing, the threats, the raging - just turn and walk away. Make it as quick and clean and unemotional as possible. Don't take the bait and respond to or debate issues, don't assign blame, don't enter into useless, delaying arguments, - simply nod, and keep walking away.

That's what you do with any serial abuser - with anyone that thinks that you're worthless, or a sucker, or can't hit back - you simply walk away.

You'll cry, you'll rage to ourselves, we'll wish things were as they once were, but the sooner we end this, the better - if not for ourselves, then for our kids.