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Old 03-20-2018, 09:41 AM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Default Main Water Valve Stuck - What penetrating oil to use

Tap in my bathtub is leaking. Need to shut of main water supply valve in basement, but it is stuck. Thinking about putting some penetration oil on there for a bit to see if that loosens it.

Never had to deal with a stuck valve when doing any other plumbing work on my houses so not sure what to use. Anyone recommend which penetrating oil to use? Had a few people tell me not to use WD40 on any valve with rubber seals as it is not good for it. ?????

Looking for any advice. Thanks a bunch.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:46 AM
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Post a photo of the valve. Some are more common than others and a new cartridge can be installed in it, of course this involves having the city out to shut off your water at the curb stop though. I’ve never used a penetrating oil because usually when they’re seized it’s due to mineral scale build up from leaking and oil isn’t going to help. If there’s no mineral scale it shouldn’t be that hard to close. Be aware though that brass is soft and lots of people wind up breaking the valve shaft and tearing the handle right off when they get carried away using pliers. I’ve fixed more of those than I’d care to count.

If it’s a Dahl brand valve I’ll install a new cartridge in it, if it’s anything else I’ll replace it with a ball vale stop & drain. Main shut off valves have a cap that unscrews to serve as a drain point, they have an odd size to them so people don’t use them as a source of ‘free’ water sourced from upstream of their meter.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:48 AM
TylerThomson TylerThomson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briverb View Post
Tap in my bathtub is leaking. Need to shut of main water supply valve in basement, but it is stuck. Thinking about putting some penetration oil on there for a bit to see if that loosens it.

Never had to deal with a stuck valve when doing any other plumbing work on my houses so not sure what to use. Anyone recommend which penetrating oil to use? Had a few people tell me not to use WD40 on any valve with rubber seals as it is not good for it. ?????

Looking for any advice. Thanks a bunch.
Shut off the supply before the basement and replace that valve. It doesn't take much hydrocarbons to contaminate a water source. If you live in the city have them shut it off at the main. If in the country shut your pump off.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:18 AM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Thanks for the replies.

Attached are pics of the valve lever.

Just talked to a friend who has dealt with many of these. He said to loosen the nut on the front of the lever just a bit. It's probably tightened as a safety feature so the lever does not accidentally get turned. Makes sense to me. Thought I'd double check here to make sure before attempting it.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:26 AM
RBI RBI is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Post a photo of the valve. Some are more common than others and a new cartridge can be installed in it, of course this involves having the city out to shut off your water at the curb stop though. I’ve never used a penetrating oil because usually when they’re seized it’s due to mineral scale build up from leaking and oil isn’t going to help. If there’s no mineral scale it shouldn’t be that hard to close. Be aware though that brass is soft and lots of people wind up breaking the valve shaft and tearing the handle right off when they get carried away using pliers. I’ve fixed more of those than I’d care to count.

If it’s a Dahl brand valve I’ll install a new cartridge in it, if it’s anything else I’ll replace it with a ball vale stop & drain. Main shut off valves have a cap that unscrews to serve as a drain point, they have an odd size to them so people don’t use them as a source of ‘free’ water sourced from upstream of their meter.


Caber , I've had this same problem come up more than once in my work , and although what your saying about fixing or replace is obviously the proper way to do things , ...when you have time ...

What about when it just needs to get done now * , you just need to get the water shut off , so the first part of the job can get done , and get the valve fixed proper in the very short future ?

As I have been one of those people who have snapped off a handle/valve ,( actually with my hand ) while trying to get it shut off all the way , I am now very leery about cranking too hard on main water valves .

* the " now " that I speak of , for me , is when I'm doing a bathroom reno and I have to shut water off so I can cut and cap off water lines ,( mostly for the tub/shower ) so that I can do the demo part of the job etc.

Thanks
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:29 AM
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Your friends handle nut suggestion is just a wild guess, that's not a thing. Locking valves do exist but that's not one of them and its not accomplished by tightening the handle nut. I was expecting to see an older style washer valve rather than a ball valve, though ball valves can and do seize as well. A new one and the city shut off will get you arranged if the sucker doesn't move for you. There's a huge condo building in Calgary called Gateway Southcentre that is chock full of Kitz brand ball valves that are mostly seized, the handles would bend before the valves would move. Every flipping suite in the place needs new isolation valves, save for the few that have been replaced.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:57 AM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Well loosening the nut didn't help. I was able to loosen it no problem. Tried to turn the lever, but no dice. Not sure how much pressure I should use to turn it so I'll stop there, I guess.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:00 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Give the valve body some sharp taps with a hammer. Try applying some heat to the valve body next.
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:45 PM
Arty Arty is offline
 
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That's a cheap water-service 3/4" ball valve. Probably has the model printed right there on the handle. Good chance B&K has a sectional drawing of it on their website, which might help 'debug' it by showing where a problem could be.

Not sure why you'd want to use a ball valve in domestic water service in the first place, where you might actuate that thing a couple times in your life. Typically globe valves have been used there which have a much lower chance of seizing because the 'plug' disc and its gasket just gets pushed down against a flat internal seat. With a ball valve, you have a big part of a spherical cavity which has to be lined with some gasket material such as teflon, and the whole ball 'plug' scrapes sideways against that. The advantage of the ball valve is that it's quick; a simple quarter turn with the wrist and you're home.

I'd certainly get that valve replaced completely even if you have to get the whole house shut off for 1/2 day or whatever.

Having been involved in hundreds of valve-related jobs of all sizes, chemical processes and pressure ratings, I'd really recommend putting in something way more robust that won't let you down anymore. Rather than an el-cheapo single point of failure, I'd put in a couple valves in series in case one or the other gives you grief when you have some sort of emergency.

All stainless higher-pressure ratings, with a stout manual 3/4" or 1" globe valve in an upstream section, followed by small full-port trunnion ball. That way you keep a fast-shutoff function, get more overall dependability, and mutual backup in case either gets jammed with sand or scale somehow.

I hate welded joints with a passion as those are 10 times more work to replace than flanges; requiring hot work permits, welding contractors, weld inspections, train shutdowns and line purges etc etc. So installation of small-diameter raised-face low-pressure flange connections & valves would be peachy.

I'd assemble a separate short stainless section of 3/4", or 1" tubing with reducer swages, maybe a meter long with low-pressure stainless flanges welded in for both the globe and ball, then have a plumber cut out a meter of the copper line and solder appropriate connections onto the main water line. Install the stainless sections and the valves, torque up, and you're good to go.

I know steel to steel and stainless, but would have to research copper to stainless a bit more to see what fittings would work. But no doubt I'd want to put in something that would last a few decades.
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Old 03-20-2018, 02:42 PM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Thanks for the feedback. Tried all recommended tricks and valve won't move. City coming on Monday to shut off water on outside. Will replace with something better.
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:09 PM
TylerThomson TylerThomson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briverb View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Tried all recommended tricks and valve won't move. City coming on Monday to shut off water on outside. Will replace with something better.
That's your best bet. Don't cheap out on your valve or when you really need it, it will fail you again.
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:14 PM
Tfng Tfng is offline
 
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So everyone reading this thread is going to go to the basement and cycle their water shutoff valve tonight right?! That valve doesn't even look all that old.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:19 PM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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It is probably 18 years old. Original when house was built.
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:34 PM
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Not a plumber.

But had my share of wrecks involving water.

I almost guarantee the city will send a man out at zero cost to shut your main off prior to monkeying with it.

My luck - the instant I rapped on it with a hammer or applied the snipe something would rupture - and the main shutoff would be cemented under the driveway.
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Old 03-20-2018, 07:44 PM
MOUNTAIN MICKEY MOUNTAIN MICKEY is offline
 
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Cycling the main water valve the first working day of the month is a habit I have been doing for many years. Other things I do at the same time is recharge all rechargeable batteries--phones --flashlights - scanner--radios etc. I do forget some times now that I am retired but do it most months.
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:03 AM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Good idea about doing that stuff at the beginning of the month. I just put a monthly reminder in my iphone to turn all valves in the house, charge all rechargable batteries - fish finder, deep cycle for trolling motor, radios, dog trimmer, etc. haha.

Thanks for all the advice on my plumbing issue. I decided to install 2 valves in case one fails. I have 5 days to figure out how to do it. Not employed right now so I have time to research it.

Seems like all I have been doing lately is just looking for things to fix around the house. Maybe my wife should give me a raise. hahaha

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Old 03-21-2018, 07:05 AM
sanjuanworm sanjuanworm is offline
 
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
Give the valve body some sharp taps with a hammer. Try applying some heat to the valve body next.
Don't force it. Use a bigger hammer.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:07 AM
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There is a way to do this valve repair when you can't wait for the City to close the curb stop.

If the stop & waste is seized then there is a better than even chance that the service valve is also seized or the operating rod is corroded and may break in the partially opened position. This will cause a leak at that valve because there is a drain on it that only opens when the rod is partially twisted or fully off. Because the municipality owns that valve it will be on public property and it is unlawful for you to turn it yourself. It may mean a repair crew will (eventually) be dispatched to dig up your lawn (or driveway.)

The alternative route is to freeze the copper at or near the floor with dry ice. The spitter valve on the shut-off- meant to drain the plumbing so you can solder- will tell you if the line is frozen. Do not test this until you are convinced that it is frozen as running water in a pipe will not freeze easily. Replace the defective valve then thaw the copper with a heat gun or hair drier.

A little patience and some basic skills should get you through it, but only if you can't or won't wait for the experts. I was with the C. of C. waterworks for thirty+ years and have been on both sides of this problem.

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Old 03-21-2018, 09:49 AM
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Personally my suggestion is to hire a plumber. The city stops by to shut off your curb stop but they sure as heck won’t hang around for the amount of time it would take an amateur to do the work. Then they’d have to return to turn the water back in, if that happens to be the same day is anyone’s guess. They do book a pretty tight schedule, sometimes it’s over two weeks out booking non-emergency main shut offs with them.

Now let’s back up the the suggestion of freezing the line. I have frozen all manner of water mains and heating lines and it’s a very effective technique. The dangers in suggesting this for an amateur are many. Let’s say the person gets the freeze on successfully and commences with the work, but being amateurs they take a while and the dry ice has now dissipated. Now they’re stuck with full line pressure spraying against the ceiling or wherever until the city crew arrives for the emergency shut off. Now we will wonder if the city’s valve functions or not? I’ve seen a few that needed replacement in my time. Sometimes the valve works but the curb stop riser pipe is full of ice, now the city calls for their steamer truck to come and melt out the ice. Now the valve works! Maybe... In the meantime how much water got blasted all over the house and it’s contents? At this point saving that $265 or so doesn’t seem like such a bargain, does it? This is all stuff I’ve seen before too, I’m not ‘building a straw man argument’ in the least. Other inconveniences play in, such as how much time does the trip to the dry ice store take? I don’t imagine the stuff itself is particularly pricey, but one needs to judge where the point of diminishing returns is and what their actual competence level is on the tools; do they have all the parts needed plus the ones they didn't realize they’d need? Can they do it fast enough and without leaks? Many can, I’m not saying it’s really difficult but I’ve also seen the results of those who could not manage all manner of plumbing’s repairs. Usually the costs exceed what they were ‘saving’ because other things got damaged.

A main stop job where the curb stop is buried under ice and sod is not an ideal time to try your luck! Heck, I had a curb stop job at a well known AO members house and I arranged with the city for the shut off. The curb stop was buried a bit deep and the workers yellow sensor device was not toning strongly at all, it would barely make a noise. I wound up being the one that found the blasted thing after an hour of poking around, and that’s with him already there due to the appointment. I would not recommend a freeze job on a main stop for an amateur.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:58 AM
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What Caber said, there is possibility of a lot of of damage if things go south.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Personally my suggestion is to hire a plumber. The city stops by to shut off your curb stop but they sure as heck won’t hang around for the amount of time it would take an amateur to do the work. Then they’d have to return to turn the water back in, if that happens to be the same day is anyone’s guess. They do book a pretty tight schedule, sometimes it’s over two weeks out booking non-emergency main shut offs with them.

Now let’s back up the the suggestion of freezing the line. I have frozen all manner of water mains and heating lines and it’s a very effective technique. The dangers in suggesting this for an amateur are many. Let’s say the person gets the freeze on successfully and commences with the work, but being amateurs they take a while and the dry ice has now dissipated. Now they’re stuck with full line pressure spraying against the ceiling or wherever until the city crew arrives for the emergency shut off. Now we will wonder if the city’s valve functions or not? I’ve seen a few that needed replacement in my time. Sometimes the valve works but the curb stop riser pipe is full of ice, now the city calls for their steamer truck to come and melt out the ice. Now the valve works! Maybe... In the meantime how much water got blasted all over the house and it’s contents? At this point saving that $265 or so doesn’t seem like such a bargain, does it? This is all stuff I’ve seen before too, I’m not ‘building a straw man argument’ in the least. Other inconveniences play in, such as how much time does the trip to the dry ice store take? I don’t imagine the stuff itself is particularly pricey, but one needs to judge where the point of diminishing returns is and what their actual competence level is on the tools; do they have all the parts needed plus the ones they didn't realize they’d need? Can they do it fast enough and without leaks? Many can, I’m not saying it’s really difficult but I’ve also seen the results of those who could not manage all manner of plumbing’s repairs. Usually the costs exceed what they were ‘saving’ because other things got damaged.

A main stop job where the curb stop is buried under ice and sod is not an ideal time to try your luck! Heck, I had a curb stop job at a well known AO members house and I arranged with the city for the shut off. The curb stop was buried a bit deep and the workers yellow sensor device was not toning strongly at all, it would barely make a noise. I wound up being the one that found the blasted thing after an hour of poking around, and that’s with him already there due to the appointment. I would not recommend a freeze job on a main stop for an amateur.
Ya but, standing knee deep in water in your basement, with your new valve installed, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that YOU DID IT YOURSELF ! That's worth something, isn't it ?
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:50 AM
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Au revoir, Gopher Au revoir, Gopher is offline
 
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Ya but, standing knee deep in water in your basement, with your new valve installed, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that YOU DID IT YOURSELF ! That's worth something, isn't it ?
My basement is a walk out... it would be hard to get the water knee deep

Then again I hired Caber to change out the cartridge in mine when the stem broke (it wasn't even me who did it, it was the guy the city hired to change the water meter!).

ARG
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher View Post
My basement is a walk out... it would be hard to get the water knee deep

Then again I hired Caber to change out the cartridge in mine when the stem broke (it wasn't even me who did it, it was the guy the city hired to change the water meter!).

ARG


And yours was an easy locate for the City, it was another members place that the difficult locate for the curb stop happened at.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:44 PM
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Ya but, standing knee deep in water in your basement, with your new valve installed, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that YOU DID IT YOURSELF ! That's worth something, isn't it ?
But you could also have the same satisfaction, and learn some good new information, without ending up with a mess. Obviously in this case you'd want a j-plumber to cut into the line and then button it up again as it's energized or just locked out with some underground city valve in questionable condition.

You could still have some input into the job though for example by saying you want a duplicate pair of valves in series, one of which has to be a globe. Then you'll probably get into some back-and-forth with him, hearing 'well we never do that cuz it's not needed, they've been using single valves for 85 years, it'll take too long, you can't get those, it's too much trouble, there's no room for that, you don't know what you're asking, yadda yadda...'

As long as you have your ducks lined up, have done your research, thought it through thoroughly, found some case studies of similar solutions done elsewhere, and ask some practitioner why exactly it wouldn't work and then redesign a little if necessary, you can push the envelope a little for a better, non-commercial solution.

Lots of times things are done they way they are just for industry-wide expediency, to allow some profit margin all around, and to feed the parts supply industry, and for zoning or 'safety' departments to not have to think too hard and get their panties into a bunch, nor make any trades uncomfortable with something unfamiliar, nor threaten someones specialty by doing something different which might be more appropriate for some particular case. So there is often room for improvement.

However, the further away from code and convention you go, the more you have to know the field and the basics, and think through and calculate what will happen in all foreseeable situations. Most people today though have been convinced they can't do that, are trained not to actually think (especially critically), and are just supposed to buy stuff to feed the consumer economy; usually on credit. Doesn't have to be like that.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:01 PM
Freedom55 Freedom55 is offline
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When I started in this line of work we did not have any electronic devices like a metal detector. We relied on a 'dip needle' to locate the magnetized portion of the lid. I've got one here made by the "Aqua survey $ Instrument Co." of Cincinnati Ohio, a vintage piece. Sometimes we located the service line first, using 'witching wires" that narrowed down the search somewhat, but those wires didn't work for everyone and the dip needles often did not pick up the top boxes.

Seemed pretty hilarious to me at first; a guy walking back and forth across a property line with two steel wires poking out in front of him them wandering around with a small box dangling on a strap, seemingly doing nothing at all. But I mastered the techniques and still relied on my dip needle to locate curb boxes when I inspected the work done by private contractors in new subdivisions up until 2008. But only after the wand failed to read the top box amidst the clutter of the rebar.

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Old 03-21-2018, 01:32 PM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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But you could also have the same satisfaction, and learn some good new information, without ending up with a mess. Obviously in this case you'd want a j-plumber to cut into the line and then button it up again as it's energized or just locked out with some underground city valve in questionable condition.

You could still have some input into the job though for example by saying you want a duplicate pair of valves in series, one of which has to be a globe. Then you'll probably get into some back-and-forth with him, hearing 'well we never do that cuz it's not needed, they've been using single valves for 85 years, it'll take too long, you can't get those, it's too much trouble, there's no room for that, you don't know what you're asking, yadda yadda...'

As long as you have your ducks lined up, have done your research, thought it through thoroughly, found some case studies of similar solutions done elsewhere, and ask some practitioner why exactly it wouldn't work and then redesign a little if necessary, you can push the envelope a little for a better, non-commercial solution.

Lots of times things are done they way they are just for industry-wide expediency, to allow some profit margin all around, and to feed the parts supply industry, and for zoning or 'safety' departments to not have to think too hard and get their panties into a bunch, nor make any trades uncomfortable with something unfamiliar, nor threaten someones specialty by doing something different which might be more appropriate for some particular case. So there is often room for improvement.

However, the further away from code and convention you go, the more you have to know the field and the basics, and think through and calculate what will happen in all foreseeable situations. Most people today though have been convinced they can't do that, are trained not to actually think (especially critically), and are just supposed to buy stuff to feed the consumer economy; usually on credit. Doesn't have to be like that.
Arty,

Globe valve are not designed for positive shut off, they are for flow control or throttling as per the bevelled disc / plug seat. Pressure come up from under globe allowing this design to control or regulate flow.

Ball valves are positive shut off valves. I as well doubt they make a trunnion ball valve in this size and pressure rating. Trunnions are designed for the seat to move to the ball allowing pressure sealing capabilities on both upstream and downstream sides. Floaters ( like the one in question ) use pressure to move the ball to the seat...

Installing two ball valves though is a good practice.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:13 AM
briverb briverb is offline
 
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Have a plumber coming on Monday to change it out when the city shuts the water off. Yep, thought about it and really don't need anymore issues. Thanks for all the advice.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:31 PM
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Arty,

Globe valve are not designed for positive shut off, they are for flow control or throttling as per the bevelled disc / plug seat. Pressure come up from under globe allowing this design to control or regulate flow.

Ball valves are positive shut off valves. I as well doubt they make a trunnion ball valve in this size and pressure rating. Trunnions are designed for the seat to move to the ball allowing pressure sealing capabilities on both upstream and downstream sides. Floaters ( like the one in question ) use pressure to move the ball to the seat...

Installing two ball valves though is a good practice.
SH,

Globe valves come in many different versions and trim. Those meant for throttling will often have 'cages' with lots of little holes, to adjust flow coefficient and reduce cavitation and noise; usually associated with automated actuators. Of course not made for positive shutoff.

However you can indeed get a common, soft conventional or plug disc globe which provides positive shutoff of mild process at lower pressures. In fact that's what they used for decades in residential applications. The disc/gasket material slightly deforms around the seat and water pressure becomes too low to overcome the force of the gasket pressed against the seat, keeping water out. Further, any impurities/scale/fines in the process will just become embedded into the disc gasket, avoiding the creation of leakage channels. A lot like any gasket works.

The soft conventional or plug disk indeed can be and is used for positive shutoff, often when used frequently, for those reasons.

A true shutoff valve would be a gate, or blind valve but if the seat gets scale deposits when it's open, and the operator tries to tighten it excessively against the seat trying to get a seal, he will snap off the valve stem. No good for long-term non-actuated domestic water use.

A wafer butterfly valve commonly used in industrial water applications could allow backpressure to be sealed off when closed, but there's not too many cases of residence water pressure being generated and increasing when the main supply valve is shut off. There's also a big spindle and plate always sitting in the middle of the body and water flow causing pressure drop and potentially noise.

A non-trunnion ball valve, as you mentioned, seals by process pressure forcing the ball against the body. That's part of the problem, as it causes slight deformation of the teflon (or other) lining material over time, letting scale and particles accumulate and get trapped in the slight spherical cavities on the high-pressure side which would seize up the ball. Possibly the problem in this case; which obviously is a seized ball.

So far, we've still got a conventional disc / soft plug seat globe as the best choice.

A trunnion ball valve, on the other hand, has a supporting shaft which is anchored at top and bottom by bearings. That shaft, like an axle, takes the pressure load from the supply process, instead of the lining material and back part of the body. So it can be turned more smoothly and with much less force, friction and wear. The upstream seal ring can provide most of the seal this time, as you mentioned, instead of the main ball squished against a downstream body liner. Or you can get spring-loaded seals for both upstream and downstream seats. This application will not be operated enough, to cause cavitation and fluid wear of the upstream seal, so that is not a concern. Finally, a 2-piece top-assembled trunnion can be disassembled in-line to check for wear and to service/replace parts if need be. You don't have to pull it off the line and throw it out.

Kits provides a 2-inch nominal diameter, Hisaka a 1.5-inch, Emerson will go down as small as 1/2-inch (side-entry) for this application.

So, 3/4" globe conventional disk and 3/4" or 1" trunnion ball. Or two globes. Bad idea to throw something back into service like a ball floater which just failed. Especially two of them.

Last edited by Arty; 03-22-2018 at 06:39 PM.
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2018, 08:17 PM
reddeerguy2015 reddeerguy2015 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Alberta
Posts: 1,269
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Can someone post a picture and short description of the type of valve that SHOULD be used for the main water shut-off please.

Just checked mine and I've got a conventional el-cheapo ball valve. House is not even two years old so I'd like to tackle this before it actually screws me over.

Thanks.
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