Life expectancy of the lithium 40v batteries for ice augers

[Jawjacker]

Guys what do you thing the life expectancy would be for the 40V lithium batteries on all these electric ice augers would be? I'm thinking 3 to 4 years.

[RavYak]

All depends on how much you use it and if you properly charge/store it.

The ion is supposed to be good for about 700 charge cycles before a change in performance is noticed. That assumes proper charging and storage though.

[Jigapoolza]

I have a Ion that’s 6 years old with that I have the original battery plus another that’s 4 years old and I take turns with them. I’m not sure if they have lost any of their capacity or not. Once we get a couple feet of ice I will see how many holes I can get with them and post the results. I’m thinking that there wouldn’t be more than 300 charges between the two batteries. I’ve seen the claim of 700 charges per battery but I got to say I’m highly sceptical of that . I guess time will tell.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Jigapoolza

I have a Ion that’s 6 years old with that I have the original battery plus another that’s 4 years old and I take turns with them. I’m not sure if they have lost any of their capacity or not. Once we get a couple feet of ice I will see how many holes I can get with them and post the results. I’m thinking that there wouldn’t be more than 300 charges between the two batteries. I’ve seen the claim of 700 charges per battery but I got to say I’m highly sceptical of that . I guess time will tell.

700 is probably consecutive charges in a lab, or just an estimate by ion. You are right you probably will see less then that because most people don't charge or store these batteries in battery maximizing ways.

For example unlike lead acid batteries lithium ion batteries have a longer life if not charged fully and if stored with a charge of 40-50% (don't store empty or fully charged).

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

[Jigapoolza]

Ion recommends you store your battery fully charged and after 3 months of storage to put on the charger and top it up. That comes right out of their owners manual.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Jigapoolza

Ion recommends you store your battery fully charged and after 3 months of storage to put on the charger and top it up. That comes right out of their owners manual.

That is what the old manuals used to state, now they are recommending proper storage procedures for lithium ion batteries.

From the new Gen 2 manual.

Long-Term Storage
If your ice auger will not be run for more than one month, prepare it for long-term storage.
• For best results, store your battery with 2 or 3 indicated lights of charge.
NOTE: You don’t need to completely charge your battery prior to long-term storage.
NOTE: You don’t need to charge your battery during long-term storage unless the charge drops below 2 lights.
• Store battery in a cool dry place.
NOTE: Optimal storage temperature is 68° F.
• Avoid leaving the battery attached to the charger or powerhead for a prolonged period of time.

And from elsewhere in the manual

2 solid lights 30-65% charge remaining

I see they are also stating to replace the battery at 500 full cycles (to answer OP's question). If you limit depth of discharge that will help significantly with battery life, best practice would be to swap once the battery gets down to 1 sold light (indicating less than 30%).

[Jigapoolza]

So I see they say you don’t have to fully charge the battery before storeage but it doesn’t say not to charget it . It does say if it drops to 1 bar you need to charge it . So if its showing two bars it could be 30 percent if it drops 1% your down to 1 bar and it should be charged.Im no expert on these batteries but until they tell me not to charge them before storage I’m going to keep charging.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Jigapoolza

So I see they say you don’t have to fully charge the battery before storeage but it doesn’t say not to charget it . It does say if it drops to 1 bar you need to charge it . So if its showing two bars it could be 30 percent if it drops 1% your down to 1 bar and it should be charged.Im no expert on these batteries but until they tell me not to charge them before storage I’m going to keep charging.

The reason Ion says that is for legal reasons. If they say not to charge it then they run a risk of people storing fully discharged or undercharge batteries which can do serious damage. Storing them fully charged just shortens their life.

All lithium ion batteries are stressed when stored at full charge. It is up to you whether you would rather believe a manufacturer that has no qualms with selling you replacement batteries or the science readily available at your fingertips.

Myself and I assume others have asked Ion why they used to recommend storing their batteries fully charged. Guess what they did? Removed that recommendation... If that doesn't get the point across that storing the battery fully charged isn't the best option I am not sure what will.

[Isopod]

I bought a new Ion X this summer with a 40 volt 5.0 amp battery. The instructions state in bold type on page 6:

"NOTE: recharging the battery after each use is best for the life of the battery."

And on page 7:

"IMPORTANT. Connect the battery to the charger every three months to ensure that it maintains a full charge during extended storage."

Also on page 7 under Maintenance and Storage:

"Long Term Storage: If your ice auger will not be run for more than one month, prepare it for long-term storage. Charge the battery and leave it off of the unit. Store the battery in temperatures between 40 F and 120 F."

[Isopod]

I read the linked article (above) on how to store batteries, and they do recommend storing lithium ions batteries at a 40% charge, but the battery they were testing was a 4 volt battery. The new 40 volt ice auger batteries are far more powerful, and trying to transfer test results from a 4 volt battery to a 40 volt battery might be comparing apples with oranges.

[Jigapoolza]

This is pretty interesting I must say. If they have been Giving people bad advice about how to store their batteries in the off season and it drastically reduces the life of the battery I would say that it’s almost criminal to be pulling crap like that.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Isopod

I read the linked article (above) on how to store batteries, and they do recommend storing lithium ions batteries at a 40% charge, but the battery they were testing was a 4 volt battery. The new 40 volt ice auger batteries are far more powerful, and trying to transfer test results from a 4 volt battery to a 40 volt battery might be comparing apples with oranges.

40 volt batteries are made from 4 volt cells in series.

Originally Posted by Jigapoolza

This is pretty interesting I must say. If they have been Giving people bad advice about how to store their batteries in the off season and it drastically reduces the life of the battery I would say that it’s almost criminal to be pulling crap like that.

I wouldn’t consider it criminal and barely even bad advice, it just isn’t ideal advice(their new recommendation is great though). I assume their original statements were to try and keep people from storing empty/undercharged batteries which is actually good intent. I can’t remember if the original batteries had test lights on them or not, if not it makes complete sense.

If you want to think about something borderline criminal take what you just learned and consider it in the context of your phone or laptop. If you have a laptop and usually leave it plugged in you now know why the batteries still go to crap in a couple years. Always fully charged and at or above room temperature.

[Isopod]

"40 volt batteries are made from 4 volt cells in series."

Thanks, that clears that up.

But as I did deeper into this on the internet, what bothers me is that everything seems to come back to Cadex Electronics and their "battery university" series of bulletins. I tried following up links on lithium ion battery storage by "groovypost", which sounds kind of sketchy but at least seems to be very different than Battery University. Groovypost posts a chart that also shows better longevity when lithium ion batteries are stored partly discharged, so I followed the link on the chart, which brought me to wikipedia. Wiki also had a link to where they got the chart from, and when I followed that, you guessed it, I was back at Battery University bulletins!

Then I tried looking at an article in popular mechanics on how to store lithium ion batteries, and they also suggested storing them partly discharged. So I followed the link to where they got that reference from, and hey, I was back at Cadex Electronics and their battery university bulletins!

That doesn't mean that the battery university posts are wrong, they may well be right. But I'm perturbed that everything I've looked at online that talks about storing lithium ion batteries all ends up leading back to Cadex Electronics and their "battery university" bulletins. Especially since their recommendation differs from how the manual of my new Ion X auger tells me to store the batteries.

[RavYak]

Do you trust Concordia University?

https://www.concordia.ca/content/dam...mBatteries.pdf

Batteries should be 40-60% charged for long time storage.

[Isopod]

"Do you trust Concordia University?"

Well, normally I would, but when you look at their references at the end of the article to see where they got their information, you are back to a link to Battery Univerity!! Sigh.

[mickeyjim]

If they stored best at a full charge, why wouldn't they come fully charged when you buy them? They come partially charged and sit on the shelf for months to years

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Isopod]

"If they stored best at a full charge, why wouldn't they come fully charged when you buy them? They come partially charged and sit on the shelf for months to years"

If they sit on a shelf for months to years, then they would be partly discharged even if fully charged when first packaged.

The instructions on my Ion X say to recharge after every day of use, and to recharge every 3 months when in storage. So they want me to keep them fully charged, the question is whether that is the best advice or not?

[Jigapoolza]

I think they ship lithium batteries only partly charged for safety reasons.

[Sundancefisher]

What I have seen with batteries is starting a charge at night and leaving it on a charger even after fully charged. Any issue with that?

My Fitbit battery started expanding and they told me it was unsafe to use.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Isopod

"Do you trust Concordia University?"

Well, normally I would, but when you look at their references at the end of the article to see where they got their information, you are back to a link to Battery Univerity!! Sigh.

So Battery University is the go to resource referenced by universities, manufacturers and sellers and is ran by a man that has been designing and building battery analyzers, maintenance and testing equipment for 35 years.

The creators of Ion batteries literally designed a plastic housing to hold battery cells, buy the cells wire them together and put them in the housing.

I know which source I would trust... Especially now that their recommendations are the same (look at gen 2 ion manual, https://www.ioniceaugers.com/Documents/Download/2402)

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What I have seen with batteries is starting a charge at night and leaving it on a charger even after fully charged. Any issue with that?

My Fitbit battery started expanding and they told me it was unsafe to use.

It isn't ideal but it isn't a big issue from what I understand. The reason it isn't ideal is that the batteries discharge faster when fully charged and when charging they create heat which increases stress. Leaving a lithium ion battery on the charger means it runs through its cycles faster and maintains a higher temperature shortening its life slightly.

Leaving your fitbit on the charger should not have caused that issue unless the charger was malfunctioning and overcharged it.

[Isopod]

"So Battery University is the go to resource referenced by universities, manufacturers and sellers and is ran by a man that has been designing and building battery analyzers, maintenance and testing equipment for 35 years."

That is all true. But you've got to admit that a place that calls itself "Battery University" seems a bit... I don't know... questionable?

I'm just a bit concerned how every online source links back to BU as their source of information. Hey, it may be the absolute best and most reliable source out there. But I find it strange that legit places like Concordia University or Popular Mechanics just take BU information as gospel. I mean, can't these places do their own battery testing, instead of relying on a place called Battery University? Can't Concordia University can't test those claims or test Lithium Ion batteries themselves? Instead they just accept everything published out of BU and report that as fact in their discussion on lithium-ion batteries? Isn't the whole science thing about testing what others have done and seeing if your results confirm or refute it, as opposed to just blindly reporting what others have found and accepting it as fact?
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"I know which source I would trust... Especially now that their recommendations are the same (look at gen 2 ion manual, https://www.ioniceaugers.com/Documents/Download/2402)"

Now that is interesting, thanks for posting. The info is much different than in the manual for the Ion X that I bought this year.
It still seems like they are struggling for a consistent messaging in the Gen 2 manual, as much of the information seems conflicting. For example:

On pg. 6..
"NOTE: Recharging the battery after each use
is best for the life of the battery."

On pg. 7..
"Long-Term Storage
If your ice auger will not be run for more than one month,
prepare it for long-term storage.
• For best results, store your battery with 2 or 3 indicated
lights of charge.
NOTE: You don’t need to completely charge your
battery prior to long-term storage.
NOTE: You don’t need to charge your battery
during long-term storage unless the charge drops
below 2 lights.

Yet in the next section, also on page 7:
"IMPORTANT
CONNECT THE BATTERY TO THE CHARGER EVERY
THREE MONTHS TO ENSURE THAT IT MAINTAINS
A FULL CHARGE DURING EXTENDED STORAGE"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

So yah, a huge amount of mixed messaging. I just bought a new electric auger so I'm concerned as to which of these many different methods is the best option to keep my battery alive for a long time.

By default, I would normally just go with the manufacturer recommendations. Not sure that's the best choice here, so looking for more information from legit sources.

BTW, I looked into some Tesla websites as to their thoughts on how to preserve batteries over storage periods of months, and while there are of course differing opinions, they overall seem to to lean towards maintaining a battery charge of 50-70% for long storage.

[RavYak]

The gen 2 manual is not conflicting, it just has many warnings to convey the point not to leave a battery uncharged or under charged as literally a single instance of doing so can permanently wreck the battery. Living with a slight reduction in battery life is far less severe than having a battery that doesn’t work.

Battery University is a breathe of fresh air imo. They could easily keep all their knowledge to themselves instead offer it for free online. No university or manufacturer is going to investigate the wheel to figure out how it works when the technology is already well understood and there are reputable sources explaining it. Both high and low charge increase stress on lithium based batteries(actual physical/chemical stress), more stress = shorter life. Period, nothing more to understand. Just like how it is well known that lead acid batteries are stressed when undercharged and hence why you always want to keep them fully charged.

[cube]

Originally Posted by Jawjacker

Guys what do you thing the life expectancy would be for the 40V lithium batteries on all these electric ice augers would be? I'm thinking 3 to 4 years.

Not sure if the newer batteries are better but normally you have a notable reduction at 18 months and a very noticeable reduction by 3 years. Both cycles, age and storage conditions effect the severity of the loss.

Even Tesla batteries loose charge with age though they say they should last 8 yrs. “The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use."