Grizzly bears rebounding

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by muledriver

Been in grizz country pretty regularly. Bear spray is a must, but have only run across on once when hunting, never when camping or hiking.

Well then you are obviously not in grizzly country as much as you say you are.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Well then you are obviously not in grizzly country as much as you say you are.

Pretty much sums it up

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys, just wait until the 17,000 grizz propagating in BC due to loss of hunting season start wondering over the mountains into Alberta. Maybe we will get a hunting season for grizz in Alberta again.

In some cases they don’t have very far to go !!!

[HoytCRX32]

It'll take some child/children getting mauled/killed waiting for a school bus or doing chores outside before this government will do anything, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow found fault with the kids...the grizzly paw print on my avatar was taken on the gravel road running along my property in 306. I'm not against predators but there are more grizzlies around here than people know, and as with any population boom, something's gotta give.
Rebounding hell.....flourishing!!!!

[dicknormal]

Just wait until they close every trail within 5 miles of a sighting to protect the people for their own safety.

[DJS]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

It'll take some child/children getting mauled/killed waiting for a school bus or doing chores outside before this government will do anything, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow found fault with the kids...the grizzly paw print on my avatar was taken on the gravel road running along my property in 306. I'm not against predators but there are more grizzlies around here than people know, and as with any population boom, something's gotta give.
Rebounding hell.....flourishing!!!!

It's pretty sad but I agree with you. Even a child were to get mauled nothing would change. The only thing done would be an increase in "bear awareness" education. But it's the world we live in now a days.

[H380]

Originally Posted by muledriver

Been in grizz country pretty regularly. Bear spray is a must, but have only run across on once when hunting, never when camping or hiking.

Being in grizz country is not the same as living with them , especially areas on the prairies where they dont belong . Your answer is to" remember the predator compensation fund that can be accessed ".. Tell that to the local hutt colony that lost 16 sheep one summer and 12 the next and are still awaiting compensation . And that was 3 years ago !

[marlin1]

Originally Posted by slough shark

Yup, good friend of mine, knew the man for probably 20 years, he helped me shoot my first deer

sorry for your loss

[kingrat]

Idaho removes grizzly from the endangered list and opens a hunt for them lol. I think it's only one tag for now but wow they don't mess around.

[Pioneer2]

Never were low in numbers in AB ,it was just a big lie.There was one seen wandering in the wide open prairie in Granum about 5 years back.So many black bear baiting areas closed due to the grizzlies we didn't have being sighted.There is likely more problem bears shot annually [that have lost their fear of man] than was ever shot legally with tags.So wheres the savings?

[slough shark]

Curious to see how the waterton fire will affect the grizzlies in that area this year. I heard that several burned to death and f&w had to put down several burned wounded bears. Curious if it will spread them out this year as I’m thinking next year they will flock to the area with all the new growth and associated wildlife explosions. In a separate area out by bearberry I’ve seen more bears and bear sign than I’ve ever seen out there and I go out there a lot, they’ve always been there but there are more now.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

Never were low in numbers in AB ,it was just a big lie.There was one seen wandering in the wide open prairie in Granum about 5 years back.So many black bear baiting areas closed due to the grizzlies we didn't have being sighted.There is likely more problem bears shot annually [that have lost their fear of man] than was ever shot legally with tags.So wheres the savings?

This eggzakly!!^^
We now have generations of grizzlies in AB that don't know what is to be hunted and have no fear of any consequences of interacting with humans.
They are an apex predator.They either percieve humans as a food source or a threat.....and we are no longer a threat.It only makes sense that they become increasingly more bold and fearless.
Problem bears and all out attacks/maulings/dead people are only going to increase until we put the fear of man back into them imho.

[muledriver]

Originally Posted by West O'5

This eggzakly!!^^
We now have generations of grizzlies in AB that don't know what is to be hunted and have no fear of any consequences of interacting with humans.
They are an apex predator.They either percieve humans as a food source or a threat.....and we are no longer a threat.It only makes sense that they become increasingly more bold and fearless.
Problem bears and all out attacks/maulings/dead people are only going to increase until we put the fear of man back into them imho.

I've heard this discussion item often, however, please tell me how other bears will know that one has shot one? And why should that make them afraid of humans?

Many deer are shot every year, many moose are shot each year and what I see is their normal flight response. I see the same thing with most bears; in fact, I've never had to shoot one or use bear spray in an encounter.

So how exactly does a bear know it's hunted? If it's shot, it's dead. The other ones don't know anything about that.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

Never were low in numbers in AB ,it was just a big lie.There was one seen wandering in the wide open prairie in Granum about 5 years back.So many black bear baiting areas closed due to the grizzlies we didn't have being sighted.There is likely more problem bears shot annually [that have lost their fear of man] than was ever shot legally with tags.So wheres the savings?

About 6-7 years ago I saw one middle of November southeast of Cardston. Snow was knee deep.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by muledriver

I've heard this discussion item often, however, please tell me how other bears will know that one has shot one? And why should that make them afraid of humans?

Many deer are shot every year, many moose are shot each year and what I see is their normal flight response. I see the same thing with most bears; in fact, I've never had to shoot one or use bear spray in an encounter.

So how exactly does a bear know it's hunted? If it's shot, it's dead. The other ones don't know anything about that.

You haven't hunted before have you?

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by West O'5

This eggzakly!!^^
We now have generations of grizzlies in AB that don't know what is to be hunted and have no fear of any consequences of interacting with humans.
They are an apex predator.They either percieve humans as a food source or a threat.....and we are no longer a threat.It only makes sense that they become increasingly more bold and fearless.
Problem bears and all out attacks/maulings/dead people are only going to increase until we put the fear of man back into them imho.

I've read a few studies suggest the opposite

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[muledriver]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

You haven't hunted before have you?

Probably much longer than you have.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by muledriver

I've heard this discussion item often, however, please tell me how other bears will know that one has shot one? And why should that make them afraid of humans?

Many deer are shot every year, many moose are shot each year and what I see is their normal flight response. I see the same thing with most bears; in fact, I've never had to shoot one or use bear spray in an encounter.

So how exactly does a bear know it's hunted? If it's shot, it's dead. The other ones don't know anything about that.

Well for about 200 years grizzlies were often shot on sight whenever they came near human activity areas, towns, ranches and such. Bears eventually over time got to fear these new humans, they taught their young to fear humans. Now since grizzly hunting has been banned we have a few bear generations that have not been hunted, their fear is waning and bears are moving closer to human activity areas and not having any negative reaction from these humans. These bears are having cubs in close proximity to people and becoming bolder, much like town and acreage deer who have adapted and lost fear of people and wander among acreages and through towns. Now if those deer were hunted in town it wouldn't take long before they made themselves scarce. It's the same with grizzlies it doesn't take them long to figure out that people are bad news when moma, poppa, or baby bear witnesses their brother, sister or moma get killed by people they will make themselves scarce. Add to that that bears are now overpopulated in areas that are suitable for them and older bigger bears drive them out or kill the younger ones, these youngsters have no place to go except away from the big meanie bears and end up wandering to where there are fewer bears that pick on them and that is away from the wilderness and into places where people live and work. These people don't bother them much, they get used to these people and have no fear of them, but eventually confrontations happen between them and people. These bears also breed and have babies who have no fear and on it goes. Now if we hunted them in the wilderness like we used to and kept their numbers at densities where bears had enough room for each other without conflict among themselves they would learn people are bad news and stay away from people. If their their numbers are controlled by hunters at a healthy density grizzlies would not find it necessary to leave these areas

I hope that is dumbed down enough for you to understand. Unfortunately people have created this problem and people will have to eventually fix it. Either way it will not go well for wandering bears, there is a finite limited area where bears can roam without conflict with humans becoming a problem. Those finite areas can only support a finite number of bears. Surplus wandering bears will eventually be eliminated one way or another. It might as well be proactively controlled by keeping bear numbers at a healthy level in suitable areas by using hunters hunters who spend money to hunt them and keep their numbers in balance with what suitable grizzly habitat that remains. This provides income to the gov't as opposed to having to pay the gov't to look after these problem bears because they wouldn't be in these areas in the first place if their population were properly managed through hunting.

[muledriver]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Well for about 200 years grizzlies were often shot on sight whenever they came near human activity areas, towns, ranches and such. Bears eventually over time got to fear these new humans, they taught their young to fear humans. Now since grizzly hunting has been banned we have a few bear generations that have not been hunted, their fear is waning and bears are moving closer to human activity areas and not having any negative reaction from these humans. These bears are having cubs in close proximity to people and becoming bolder, much like town and acreage deer who have adapted and lost fear of people and wander among acreages and through towns. Now if those deer were hunted in town it wouldn't take long before they made themselves scarce. It's the same with grizzlies it doesn't take them long to figure out that people are bad news when moma, poppa, or baby bear witnesses their brother, sister or moma get killed by people they will make themselves scarce. Add to that that bears are now overpopulated in areas that are suitable for them and older bigger bears drive them out or kill the younger ones, these youngsters have no place to go except away from the big meanie bears and end up wandering to where there are fewer bears that pick on them and that is away from the wilderness and into places where people live and work. These people don't bother them much, they get used to these people and have no fear of them, but eventually confrontations happen between them and people. These bears also breed and have babies who have no fear and on it goes. Now if we hunted them in the wilderness like we used to and kept their numbers at densities where bears had enough room for each other without conflict among themselves they would learn people are bad news and stay away from people. If their their numbers are controlled by hunters at a healthy density grizzlies would not find it necessary to leave these areas

I hope that is dumbed down enough for you to understand. Unfortunately people have created this problem and people will have to eventually fix it. Either way it will not go well for wandering bears, there is a finite limited area where bears can roam without conflict with humans becoming a problem. Those finite areas can only support a finite number of bears. Surplus wandering bears will eventually be eliminated one way or another. It might as well be proactively controlled by keeping bear numbers at a healthy level in suitable areas by using hunters hunters who spend money to hunt them and keep their numbers in balance with what suitable grizzly habitat that remains. This provides income to the gov't as opposed to having to pay the gov't to look after these problem bears because they wouldn't be in these areas in the first place if their population were properly managed through hunting.

There is not much scientific literature I could find, but here is some.

This study states in it's abstract (emphasis added):

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3872997?...n_tab_contents

Literature from Eurasia was reviewed for information to test the hypothesis that hunting of brown bears (Ursus arctos) makes them more wary of humans. The results were not rigorous enough to test the hypothesis scientifically. However, the common impressions were that bears are more wary of humans where they are hunted than where they are protected and that bears remained wary in several low-density populations that had been protected for a long time. In spite of this, bears in several increasing populations that were hunted became less wary. Use of human-derived food was involved when wariness toward humans was lost and appeared to be a more important factor influencing wariness than hunting. I tentatively conclude that accessible human-derived foods for bears must be controlled to maintain the bears' wariness toward people. When this has been done, hunting may contribute to increasing bears' wariness. This subject requires that more research and scientific experiments be conducted, because people are more willing to accept wary bears.

This study deals with whitetail in eastern USA.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...75cf000000.pdf

Home range and core area size did not change between pre-hunt and hunt periods, and although adult male white-tailed deer movement and activity decreased from pre-hunt to the hunt period, this was at least partially attributable to hunting sea-son coinciding with the post-breeding period. Our results suggested that hunting pressure levels at Chesapeake Farms did not influence deer behavior to a point of decreasing harvest vulnerability. Limiting hunting pressure on a property may be an effective way to mitigate loss of harvest opportunities due to avoidance by white-tailed deer of hunted areas.

This study shows mixed results of hunted elk, in case that pressure does affect them, and in the other that it does not. They seem to suggest habitat and topography are more an issue than hunting pressure

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3803041?...n_tab_contents

The long and short of it is that the scientific literature I could find does not fully support the concept that a hunted population is a wary population. If you have any other sources I'd love to look at them.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by muledriver

I've heard this discussion item often, however, please tell me how other bears will know that one has shot one? And why should that make them afraid of humans?

Many deer are shot every year, many moose are shot each year and what I see is their normal flight response. I see the same thing with most bears; in fact, I've never had to shoot one or use bear spray in an encounter.

So how exactly does a bear know it's hunted? If it's shot, it's dead. The other ones don't know anything about that.

Can't really add much to what Bushrat just said^^ other then animals seem to have that 6th sense and know when they are being hunted.Not just city deer or parks deer but wild WTs as an example,I have anywhere from 10-20 deer in the fields around the farm on any given evening that pretty much ignore me doing chores or simply walking to my truck from January til October.....but come November,their tails are up and gone as soon as I crack open my front door,they're not stupid.
Another example,take city deer that see humans daily and relatively undisturbed,but try stalking a deer in Fish Creek park and it's outta there.
Bears are no different and highly "intelligent" as animas go,wouldn't take the grizz population long to figure out that humans are bad news.
We have forward facing eyes like all predatory mammals,bears don't need to be shot nor even shot at to sense that they are being hunted,they just know.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by DJS

It's pretty sad but I agree with you. Even a child were to get mauled nothing would change. The only thing done would be an increase in "bear awareness" education. But it's the world we live in now a days.

Sadly,it will probly take nothing short of a high profile politician or their loved one being mauled to death before we see any changes,the best that we can hope for is that it's Nothead or Mr.Dressup that gets it while he's posing for photo ops at some Person Scouts or People Guides camp in the hills..😝

[H380]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Sadly,it will probly take nothing short of a high profile politician or their loved one being mauled to death before we see any changes,the best that we can hope for is that it's Nothead or Mr.Dressup that gets it while he's posing for photo ops at some Person Scouts or People Guides camp in the hills..😝

HAHAHAHA.. Good idea , lets dip them both in honey and send them for a stroll .

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by muledriver

I've heard this discussion item often, however, please tell me how other bears will know that one has shot one? And why should that make them afraid of humans?

Many deer are shot every year, many moose are shot each year and what I see is their normal flight response. I see the same thing with most bears; in fact, I've never had to shoot one or use bear spray in an encounter.

So how exactly does a bear know it's hunted? If it's shot, it's dead. The other ones don't know anything about that.

You are not seeing a normal flight response, you are seeing a learned behavior.

Deer don't run when they see other deer, moose, elk or livestock. In fact most don't scamper off when they see predators that are not normally hunting deer like foxes and coyotes. If a cougar or wolves enter the territory they get down right paranoid. Obviously each of them were never eaten by cougars or wolves.

You see a flight response because they view you as a predator.

City/park deer and waterfowl for example have lost this flight response or are intelligent enough to turn it on and off again when leaving the sanctuary.

When grizzlies decide we are no more of a threat than most other animals they will naturally retake their spot on top the food chain. Wild animals are always on the search for greener pastures and right now we inhabit those greener pastures.

Surely you can figure the rest of this out without Google searching ridiculous scientific studies when there is real people with boots on the ground telling you exactly how it is and how it is going to be.

Last summer there was a large boar that took up residence along Prairie Creek near the camp grounds. I encountered this animal and he gave me about as much respect as dirt. He killed livestock in the area and was growing increasing aggressive. Hopefully he had an unfortunate accident but if not he is going to cause some serious harm. It is not a matter of if, it is when.

In the same area there lives a sow with two cubs. She no doubt had her hands full feeding those two in farm country and this is the exact same scenario that lead to the death of a bow hunter near Sundre a couple of years back and two bears being removed from Burntstick Lake.

You hear this discussion often because it is common sense to anyone that has spent time in the field. Animals avoid unpleasant encounters. Either bears again learn to avoid us or we learn to avoid bears by giving up our recreational land and farms for their continued population growth.

[elkhunter11]

With the Grizzly season being ended in B.C. , I see no hope for it being reinstated in Alberta. This is all about politics.

[muledriver]

Originally Posted by MK2750

You are not seeing a normal flight response, you are seeing a learned behavior.

Deer don't run when they see other deer, moose, elk or livestock. In fact most don't scamper off when they see predators that are not normally hunting deer like foxes and coyotes. If a cougar or wolves enter the territory they get down right paranoid. Obviously each of them were never eaten by cougars or wolves.

You see a flight response because they view you as a predator.

Good point, and I tend to agree with you. But regardless, it is not hunting pressure that does that, as you get the same reaction in the National Parks, as long as you are away from the town sites, where ungulates have habituated, or, more likely, congregate because there is less chance of running into a cougar or wolf.

City/park deer and waterfowl for example have lost this flight response or are intelligent enough to turn it on and off again when leaving the sanctuary.

See above. I only partially agree. Mule deer seem to be adept in tolerating humans that whitetail are. I've walked inside of 10 yards to mule deer while hunting (does, not bucks) in the bush before they would flee.

When grizzlies decide we are no more of a threat than most other animals they will naturally retake their spot on top the food chain. Wild animals are always on the search for greener pastures and right now we inhabit those greener pastures.

I don't think grizzly really worry about other predators, including us or wolves. They have a pretty good idea of their place.

Surely you can figure the rest of this out without Google searching ridiculous scientific studies when there is real people with boots on the ground telling you exactly how it is and how it is going to be.

Here is where we have different opinions. I've been on the ground as much as most, but I defer my "traditional knowledge" and perceptions to actual science. I know my experiences are just mine, and may only be local in area or time of season.

Science on the other hand tries to take all variables into consideration, and discusses when there are shortcomings.

[kingrat]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Sadly,it will probly take nothing short of a high profile politician or their loved one being mauled to death before we see any changes,the best that we can hope for is that it's Nothead or Mr.Dressup that gets it while he's posing for photo ops at some Person Scouts or People Guides camp in the hills..😝

You guys should do canada a solid and invite Mr dress up camping for a week in the Alberta wilderness. And he could bring one of his terrorist buddies if he wants.

[robson3954]

Originally Posted by H380

Being in grizz country is not the same as living with them , especially areas on the prairies where they dont belong . Your answer is to" remember the predator compensation fund that can be accessed ".. Tell that to the local hutt colony that lost 16 sheep one summer and 12 the next and are still awaiting compensation . And that was 3 years ago !

Lol they were always a prairie animal so yeah they do belong there

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by robson3954

Lol they were always a prairie animal so yeah they do belong there

Yep kinda like elk. It was people that pushed them to the mountains, they’re just slowly expanding back into their historical ranges.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by muledriver

Literature from Eurasia was reviewed for information to test the hypothesis that hunting of brown bears (Ursus arctos) makes them more wary of humans. The results were not rigorous enough to test the hypothesis scientifically. However, the common impressions were that bears are more wary of humans where they are hunted than where they are protected and that bears remained wary in several low-density populations that had been protected for a long time. In spite of this, bears in several increasing populations that were hunted became less wary. Use of human-derived food was involved when wariness toward humans was lost and appeared to be a more important factor influencing wariness than hunting. I tentatively conclude that accessible human-derived foods for bears must be controlled to maintain the bears' wariness toward people. When this has been done, hunting may contribute to increasing bears' wariness. This subject requires that more research and scientific experiments be conducted, because people are more willing to accept wary bears.

Good point, availability of food. There is lots of food around developed areas, garbage, crops, orchards, livestock, etc., and it is natural for bears to go where the best groceries are. Hunted or not this tells us that bear densities in suitable wilderness bear habitat are too high. Overflowing excess populations of bears tend to disperse. If bears in those areas were kept at a healthy carrying capacity there would be no reason for them to disperse into human developed areas.

Once upon a time we killed or drove them out of areas that we humans colonized and kept them from returning. We also legally hunted the bears in the remaining wilderness areas only taking a sustainable number of bears out thus keeping their numbers thin enough that they never became over capacity in those areas. Young bears search for new territories away from their moms and other dominant bears that drive them away forcing them to disperse. These young bears don't necessarily know whats over the next hill or down the valley when their looking to set up their own territory often wandering into human populated areas found themselves unwelcome, killed if they didn't turn around and get out of dodge.

Since we have stopped hunting previously hunted areas are now overflowing with grizzlies, they are dispersing into developed areas as they have nowhere else to go. Nowadays they are met with a welcome mat by many people, they are not allowed to be killed, food sources for them abound in developed agricultural and rural areas. Bears aren't driven away or killed, instead they are adapting to people, losing their fear and thriving. The problem, whether we like it or not, is apparent, bears especially grizzlies and people don't mix well, often conflict arises. Most times it doesn't end well for the bears, but as we are seeing it is becoming more common that these conflicts don't end well for people.

I have no interest in hunting grizzlies, but there are lots of hunters that would enjoy a properly managed limited hunt taking enough bears to keep numbers in check while still maintaining a healthy population of grizzlies away from developed areas before this problem gets out of hand. Unfortunately now that humans have settled the landscape we can never have the historic numbers of bears that existed before we arrived, there simply isn't room, we do not co-exist without conflict. We must provide wild places for them to roam, but they must be also remain contained in those areas. They once thrived on the prairies, they also thrived in the mountains and foothills, interior BC and coastal BC. Unfortunately there is little room for them on the prairies these days.

[TheIceTitan]

Originally Posted by muledriver

There is not much scientific literature I could find, but here is some.

This study states in it's abstract (emphasis added):

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3872997?...n_tab_contents

Literature from Eurasia was reviewed for information to test the hypothesis that hunting of brown bears (Ursus arctos) makes them more wary of humans. The results were not rigorous enough to test the hypothesis scientifically. However, the common impressions were that bears are more wary of humans where they are hunted than where they are protected and that bears remained wary in several low-density populations that had been protected for a long time. In spite of this, bears in several increasing populations that were hunted became less wary. Use of human-derived food was involved when wariness toward humans was lost and appeared to be a more important factor influencing wariness than hunting. I tentatively conclude that accessible human-derived foods for bears must be controlled to maintain the bears' wariness toward people. When this has been done, hunting may contribute to increasing bears' wariness. This subject requires that more research and scientific experiments be conducted, because people are more willing to accept wary bears.

This study deals with whitetail in eastern USA.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...75cf000000.pdf

Home range and core area size did not change between pre-hunt and hunt periods, and although adult male white-tailed deer movement and activity decreased from pre-hunt to the hunt period, this was at least partially attributable to hunting sea-son coinciding with the post-breeding period. Our results suggested that hunting pressure levels at Chesapeake Farms did not influence deer behavior to a point of decreasing harvest vulnerability. Limiting hunting pressure on a property may be an effective way to mitigate loss of harvest opportunities due to avoidance by white-tailed deer of hunted areas.

This study shows mixed results of hunted elk, in case that pressure does affect them, and in the other that it does not. They seem to suggest habitat and topography are more an issue than hunting pressure

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3803041?...n_tab_contents

The long and short of it is that the scientific literature I could find does not fully support the concept that a hunted population is a wary population. If you have any other sources I'd love to look at them.

The argument that a sustainable hunt will conditions grizzlies to be wary of people doesn't seem tenable. The last year of the Alberta hunt (2005) saw 73 tags issued and 10 bears taken. There's no way to condition a significantly larger number of animals distributed over an immense area at that rate. Bears are not gregarious (unlike ungulates), so there is simply no means of transmitting the conditioning or fear-inducing experience to a large number of them unless conditions are such that one is attempting to exterminate them all. Further, a hunt will likely not permit the targeting of females with young (and even if it did, those young would be much more likely to die given their slow maturation); ergo, no conditioning.

The reason grizzlies were pushed back to the more rugged margins is because they were exterminated on sight at all times wherever there were people. There was no equilibrium. Controlling their numbers would likely involve such periodic culls.