Big sheep changes

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

I know the person who stated this and believe this comment is being presented out of context.

I believe the context it was expressed in was one that instead of a couple of outfitters challenging the gov in court it needs to be a unified effort by everyone who is interested. Sure outfitters may loose their income which some on here would gladly welcome but this really is a universal issue that needs to be addressed by all on a unified front.

Why don't you go ask them why they are hiring lawyers and report back RC.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

There is where you need to put a little more thought. The outfitters do not take anything away from the residents. Go buy a string of horses and see when the fun wears off. Hire a guy and let him worry about the 10 months of feed between seasons. Residents right now can buy an over counter sheep tag every year unless they kill ,then one year wait. No place else in the world. Quitcherbelliachin and vocus on the real problem
Loss of habitat
No prescrbed burns happening
Cougars and wolves
no added cougar opportunity where sheep need it most
Biologists with anti hunting agenda that really know how to make magic numbers work
If the biologists would only do what they are actually being paid to do end of problem
Manage the resource rather then the resource user

You sure about that JAH?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by albertadave

I can deny that. You are wrong. And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, how many outfitters, guides and friends of said are on the board of the wsfab. Answer me that Dave? And how much influence do they have on that organization? Lots.

[bdub]

And here you go WB. I know you already have this but here it is again anyway.


APOS Solutions Advised

1. Recognize and mitigate the complete span of problems affecting our sheep starting with those having the greatest effect. We see lack of recruitment as a serious concern.
2. Recognize the seriousness of predators out of control. (4000 extra wolves kill app. 40,000 ungulates while 1200 extra cougars kill app. 50,000 ungulates which is as much as all hunters in Alberta. Above this is the predation of bears & predacious birds)
3. Immediate reduction of wolves to the level advised in the Wolf Management Plan.
4. An immediate reduction of cougars targeting sheep or in the vicinity of sheep and across Alberta by at least 50%.
5. We advise a recognition of the value of the Sheep species by increasing resident sheep licenses immediately to levels consistent with other sheep jurisdictions(MO. = $125, ID. = $167, BC, $60, OR=$123). Outfitters already have a high value evidenced by the fact that NRA’s and NR’s are willing to pay high dollars to hunt sheep in Alberta, taxes (12.4 million annually) paid by outfitting businesses, and many donations to conservation.
6. We advise that any person who has harvested two sheep in his/her life immediately be required to wait at least 5 years after the year the second sheepis/was harvested prior to being able to hold a sheep license again.
7. A provincial minister’s hunt for two grizzly bears be established in Alberta wherein the residents be given 1 tag to be sold on draw and an NRA tag to be sold at auction with monies raised dedicated to habitat improvement projects in Sheep/Grizzly country.
8. We offer to work with our outfitters (particularly those in SMA 4) to come up with a strategy to harvest predators in the sheep country so as to do our share toincrease recruitment rates and establish older ram harvest rates.
9. We advise not going to a full curl scenario as it only moves a symptom. Fast growing rams would now be harvested a little later and it is that much harder for short, broomed older aged rams to achieve legal status.
10. We advise all rams be registered even those taken (1-2 year olds) on a legal ewe hunt.
11. We advise educating residents and guides on ageing sheep and ask each to voluntarily not harvest sheep under 6 years of age or make this same practiceillegal.
12. We advise management with objectives which are realistic in balancing our wildlife populations (predators and prey) with the desire for human harvest needs.
13. We advise the ACA and the University of Alberta be involved immediately in astudy with ESRD to develop a model which projects the carrying capacity of Alberta’s landscape, habitat, possible industry effects to the landscape and projected human populations over a 10-50 year span. The objective of this model would be: To project how we can enhance the opportunities for diverse age structured ungulate populations while conserving realistic populations of predators within the constrictions placed on them by habitat, ungulate feed sources and human desires for harvest.

[decker]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

There is where you need to put a little more thought. The outfitters do not take anything away from the residents. Go buy a string of horses and see when the fun wears off. Hire a guy and let him worry about the 10 months of feed between seasons. Residents right now can buy an over counter sheep tag every year unless they kill ,then one year wait. No place else in the world. Quitcherbelliachin and vocus on the real problem
Loss of habitat
No prescrbed burns happening
Cougars and wolves
no added cougar opportunity where sheep need it most
Biologists with anti hunting agenda that really know how to make magic numbers work
If the biologists would only do what they are actually being paid to do end of problem
Manage the resource rather then the resource user

Last season I had a outfitter interfere with my sheep hunt to the point that he stood between me and the sheep so I wasn't able to shoot the ram that we chased for three days. So your wrong here, an outfitter did take away from a resident.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by bdub

Why don't you go ask them why they are hiring lawyers and report back RC.

To try and protect their illegal monopoly on non resident sheep permits. They will lose and thus will be the beginning of the end to the outfitter policy as we know it.

[pika]

Has anyone figured out how our national parks and sheep sanctuaries produce such old and massive rams considering they are over run with wolves and sheep specialist cougars? How is this possible, seems any sheep hunter harvesting a decent ram in Alberta has to camp on a mine or park boundary to harvest one one these mystical rams that evades all the predators within park territory. The rams outside the parks must be down right stupid as they are obviously all killed by predators in areas where predators are actually hunted. I suppose predators in the protected areas avoid rams specifically ( maybe they are worried they may get charged with some sort of offence by park wardens ).

Predators, predators, predators, sounds like there is a predator problem in the province, only on crown land of course where virtually every decent ram is shot before spring, in the parks the rams just keep on living.

Who is actually stupid enough to believe that there is a predation problem?

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by decker

Last season I had a outfitter interfere with my sheep hunt to the point that he stood between me and the sheep so I wasn't able to shoot the ram that we chased for three days. So your wrong here, an outfitter did take away from a resident.

If you have proof, charge him. This is highly illegal.

Originally Posted by stringer

To try and protect their illegal monopoly on non resident sheep permits. They will lose and thus will be the beginning of the end to the outfitter policy as we know it.

Maybe not the end, but a good start to change.

[decker]

Originally Posted by huntwat

If you have proof, charge him. This is highly illegal.


Maybe not the end, but a good start to change.

I have proof, witnesses and pictures all reported to fish and wildlife. Nothing was ever done.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by bdub

And here you go WB. I know you already have this but here it is again anyway.


APOS Solutions Advised

1. Recognize and mitigate the complete span of problems affecting our sheep starting with those having the greatest effect. We see lack of recruitment as a serious concern.
2. Recognize the seriousness of predators out of control. (4000 extra wolves kill app. 40,000 ungulates while 1200 extra cougars kill app. 50,000 ungulates which is as much as all hunters in Alberta. Above this is the predation of bears & predacious birds)
3. Immediate reduction of wolves to the level advised in the Wolf Management Plan.
4. An immediate reduction of cougars targeting sheep or in the vicinity of sheep and across Alberta by at least 50%.
5. We advise a recognition of the value of the Sheep species by increasing resident sheep licenses immediately to levels consistent with other sheep jurisdictions(MO. = $125, ID. = $167, BC, $60, OR=$123). Outfitters already have a high value evidenced by the fact that NRA’s and NR’s are willing to pay high dollars to hunt sheep in Alberta, taxes (12.4 million annually) paid by outfitting businesses, and many donations to conservation.
6. We advise that any person who has harvested two sheep in his/her life immediately be required to wait at least 5 years after the year the second sheepis/was harvested prior to being able to hold a sheep license again.
7. A provincial minister’s hunt for two grizzly bears be established in Alberta wherein the residents be given 1 tag to be sold on draw and an NRA tag to be sold at auction with monies raised dedicated to habitat improvement projects in Sheep/Grizzly country.
8. We offer to work with our outfitters (particularly those in SMA 4) to come up with a strategy to harvest predators in the sheep country so as to do our share toincrease recruitment rates and establish older ram harvest rates.
9. We advise not going to a full curl scenario as it only moves a symptom. Fast growing rams would now be harvested a little later and it is that much harder for short, broomed older aged rams to achieve legal status.
10. We advise all rams be registered even those taken (1-2 year olds) on a legal ewe hunt.
11. We advise educating residents and guides on ageing sheep and ask each to voluntarily not harvest sheep under 6 years of age or make this same practiceillegal.
12. We advise management with objectives which are realistic in balancing our wildlife populations (predators and prey) with the desire for human harvest needs.
13. We advise the ACA and the University of Alberta be involved immediately in astudy with ESRD to develop a model which projects the carrying capacity of Alberta’s landscape, habitat, possible industry effects to the landscape and projected human populations over a 10-50 year span. The objective of this model would be: To project how we can enhance the opportunities for diverse age structured ungulate populations while conserving realistic populations of predators within the constrictions placed on them by habitat, ungulate feed sources and human desires for harvest.

Post up the original document. I want to know who sent this. This is definitely not the voice of all APOS. There are quite a few members of APOS that are very mad over this. It is decisions and proposals created like this that make all members of APOS look bad when only a few members actually came up with this and misrepresent APOS as a group. If you don't want to post it up here email it to my email.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by GFY

Post up the original document. I want to know who sent this. This is definitely not the voice of all APOS. There are quite a few members of APOS that are very mad over this. It is decisions and proposals created like this that make all members of APOS look bad when only a few members actually came up with this and misrepresent APOS as a group. If you don't want to post it up here email it to my email.

HI Red, welcome back, for the 58th time....



Why wouldn't these upset APOS members just ask their board of directors?

-------------------


Bdub,

Can you confirm that this APOS document was sent in to ESRD?

Do you know what the document represents?
Is it an approved position statement, or just a draft, maybe an internal document to be used for further discussion and consultation with membership?

I expect that you will be able to answer these simple questions.

[mountainascent]

Predators not only have an impact on wildlife and sheep. They also have an impact on hunters. My brother and I have had a grizzly in between us and 3 big legal rams. It didn't stop us from going after them but it was defiantly a plan b route. It didn't work but that predator changed our hunt and possibly 2 more rams to those harvest numbers that year. I have also had to cut hunts short due to too many predators in and around camp. Also area closures due to predators. So absolutely predators effect our harvest rate. And I'm positive I'm not the only sheep hunter with stories like this.

On a side note, I believe there are only 2 board members of wsfab out of 19 that are outfitters. I wouldn't call that a strong influence.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

HI Red, welcome back, for the 58th time....



Why wouldn't these upset APOS members just ask their board of directors?

-------------------


Bdub,

Can you confirm that this APOS document was sent in to ESRD?

Do you know what the document represents?
Is it an approved position statement, or just a draft, maybe an internal document to be used for further discussion and consultation with membership?

I expect that you will be able to answer these simple questions.

You tell me WB. I'm sure you have the answer. Ask one of your buds in APOS.

"APOS made their position very clear. They are asking for exactly the same thing as AFGA, WSF, SCI and ABA...."

[Justahunter]

Originally Posted by decker

Last season I had a outfitter interfere with my sheep hunt to the point that he stood between me and the sheep so I wasn't able to shoot the ram that we chased for three days. So your wrong here, an outfitter did take away from a resident.

Hey ,I am sorry to hear that and yes I can appreciate your concern. But realisticly I think you will find outfitters both sides of the courteous fence same as there is resident hunters on both sides of the same fence. I have come across a-holes throughout the system as well as some pretty darn good guys. Will be surprised if that ever changes. The fact is I believe that the anti hunting SRD employees are by far the most dangerous to all legitimate hunters and are the people we ALL need to focus on in the whole wildlife debate

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pika

Has anyone figured out how our national parks and sheep sanctuaries produce such old and massive rams considering they are over run with wolves and sheep specialist cougars? How is this possible, seems any sheep hunter harvesting a decent ram in Alberta has to camp on a mine or park boundary to harvest one one these mystical rams that evades all the predators within park territory. The rams outside the parks must be down right stupid as they are obviously all killed by predators in areas where predators are actually hunted. I suppose predators in the protected areas avoid rams specifically ( maybe they are worried they may get charged with some sort of offence by park wardens ).

Predators, predators, predators, sounds like there is a predator problem in the province, only on crown land of course where virtually every decent ram is shot before spring, in the parks the rams just keep on living.

Who is actually stupid enough to believe that there is a predation problem?

I hear you. Its just a tactic to deflect blame from the root of the problem. Nobody that has any commen sense and has sifted through the info can be that stupid to actually believe that predators are selectively killing bigger Rams in just the areas outside the parks and 400. Good grief. Folks are just muddying the water in the hopes that everyone else that hasn't looked through the info will buy the BS they are selling.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by bdub

I hear you. Its just a tactic to deflect blame from the root of the problem. Nobody that has any commen sense and has sifted through the info can be that stupid to actually believe that predators are selectively killing bigger Rams in just the areas outside the parks and 400. Good grief. Folks are just muddying the water in the hopes that everyone else that hasn't looked through the info will buy the BS they are selling.

Give it a break you sound like a broken record.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by stringer

Give it a break you sound like a broken record.

Good

[decker]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

Hey ,I am sorry to hear that and yes I can appreciate your concern. But realisticly I think you will find outfitters both sides of the courteous fence same as there is resident hunters on both sides of the same fence. I have come across a-holes throughout the system as well as some pretty darn good guys. Will be surprised if that ever changes. The fact is I believe that the anti hunting SRD employees are by far the most dangerous to all legitimate hunters and are the people we ALL need to focus on in the whole wildlife debate

I agree

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by stringer

Give it a break you sound like a broken record.

All kinds of broken records in this thread

[Lr1000]

Get your heads out of the sand. No predator problems in the parks, blue rock or cadomin.... Ha!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

You tell me WB. I'm sure you have the answer. Ask one of your buds in APOS.

"APOS made their position very clear. They are asking for exactly the same thing as AFGA, WSF, SCI and ABA...."

Since you don't know what the paper was used for, then why are you muddying the water with documents you know nothing about?

As stated, APOS's position to ESRD is that of the joint submission signed by WSF, AFGA, APOS and SCI. ABA submitted their own position which is basically the same....

Originally Posted by pika

Has anyone figured out how our national parks and sheep sanctuaries produce such old and massive rams considering they are over run with wolves and sheep specialist cougars? How is this possible, seems any sheep hunter harvesting a decent ram in Alberta has to camp on a mine or park boundary to harvest one one these mystical rams that evades all the predators within park territory. The rams outside the parks must be down right stupid as they are obviously all killed by predators in areas where predators are actually hunted. I suppose predators in the protected areas avoid rams specifically ( maybe they are worried they may get charged with some sort of offence by park wardens ).

Predators, predators, predators, sounds like there is a predator problem in the province, only on crown land of course where virtually every decent ram is shot before spring, in the parks the rams just keep on living.

Who is actually stupid enough to believe that there is a predation problem?

Originally Posted by bdub

I hear you. Its just a tactic to deflect blame from the root of the problem. Nobody that has any commen sense and has sifted through the info can be that stupid to actually believe that predators are selectively killing bigger Rams in just the areas outside the parks and 400. Good grief. Folks are just muddying the water in the hopes that everyone else that hasn't looked through the info will buy the BS they are selling.

And of course you can back up your claims of predators NOT influencing ram populations in these Sanctuaries and Parks....

So what did happen to the Sheep River Sanctuary population? Are the biologists wrong and you are right?

Are the biologists and conservation officers wrong and you guys are right about all the mature rams deaths at Cadomin?

Same question for Ram Mountain....


It is well documented that predators can and have made significant impacts on individual herds, whether they are located in a Park or an area where hunting is allowed. Ignoring or brushing off predation concerns truly is stupid.


Having said that, I am not convinced that predators are or are not the driving force behind low ram %'s in some SMAs. The ESRD sheep biologists have not been able to confirm this question either way as well. Unfortunately the accuracy of recent survey data in the area of ram% concerns (SMA4c) resulted in more questions than answers.


For those willing to take a bit of time, the linked video is a presentation on an Alaska Dall sheep research project that is yielding some interesting results on individual herd dynamics and potential causes of population reductions.... everything and the kitchen sink can be a factor....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p76nTePy5Ns

[bdub]

Keep twisting it around WB. The numbers of 4/5 Rams outside the parks being below 5%, yet they are double plus that inside the parks and in 400 and they try and blame predators. It doesn't add up. Everyone knows that some cats can specialize in sheep to the detriment of that localized population but it doesn't explain the numbers over much of our sheep range, nor the stable population numbers over many years.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

And of course you can back up your claims of predators NOT influencing ram populations in these Sanctuaries and Parks....

So what did happen to the Sheep River Sanctuary population? Are the biologists wrong and you are right?

Are the biologists and conservation officers wrong and you guys are right about all the mature rams deaths at Cadomin?

Same question for Ram Mountain....


It is well documented that predators can and have made significant impacts on individual herds, whether they are located in a Park or an area where hunting is allowed. Ignoring or brushing off predation concerns truly is stupid.

So when it comes to predators the biologist's and conservation officers are correct? You seem to pick and choose when you want to agree with them, If it doesn't suit your current opinion then they are wrong in your eyes. So what makes you so right? What are your credentials and why should anyone listen to your opinion? You are a master at twisting data and words to suit your opinion, that is blatantly obvious.

Anyone who cant see through your smoke and mirrors is an idiot.

It is obvious "WannabeBuffalo" that you twist and turn data and information to suit your opinion at the current time. You try so hard to discredit anyone with an opinion that is different than yours.

You want to discredit anyone from ESRD the majority of the time. So please, tell us what makes you "WannabeBuffalo" so special? Why are you the authority on this or any other issue when it comes to our wildlife in Alberta?

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by mountainascent

Predators not only have an impact on wildlife and sheep. They also have an impact on hunters. My brother and I have had a grizzly in between us and 3 big legal rams. It didn't stop us from going after them but it was defiantly a plan b route. It didn't work but that predator changed our hunt and possibly 2 more rams to those harvest numbers that year. I have also had to cut hunts short due to too many predators in and around camp. Also area closures due to predators. So absolutely predators effect our harvest rate. And I'm positive I'm not the only sheep hunter with stories like this.

On a side note, I believe there are only 2 board members of wsfab out of 19 that are outfitters. I wouldn't call that a strong influence.

This has to be the stupidest post I have read on this issue...

So, in your opinion a grizzly bear between you and some legal rams is a problem? You had predators around your camp so you packed up and headed home with your tail between your legs? So we should eliminate all predators in the mountain zones so that they don't interfere in your chase and chance to harvest game?

Ya, lets eliminate all predators so a few ******* can harvest squeaker rams and add to the harvest rate numbers.

You are just another guy with lots of opinions and answers that has never killed a ram. Sheep hunting is hard for a reason, and yes, predators in their natural habitat is a part of what makes it hard. Deal with it or stay home.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

So when it comes to predators the biologist's and conservation officers are correct? You seem to pick and choose when you want to agree with them, If it doesn't suit your current opinion then they are wrong in your eyes. So what makes you so right? What are your credentials and why should anyone listen to your opinion? You are a master at twisting data and words to suit your opinion, that is blatantly obvious.

Anyone who cant see through your smoke and mirrors is an idiot.

It is obvious "WannabeBuffalo" that you twist and turn data and information to suit your opinion at the current time. You try so hard to discredit anyone with an opinion that is different than yours.

You want to discredit anyone from ESRD the majority of the time. So please, tell us what makes you "WannabeBuffalo" so special? Why are you the authority on this or any other issue when it comes to our wildlife in Alberta?

A great example proving why you're such a good moderator at CGN.

Absolutely nothing productive to add, just an internet bully and a crybaby.



Don't worry CrazyDavey, you are special too.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

A great example proving why you're such a good moderator at CGN.

Absolutely nothing productive to add, just an internet bully and a crybaby.



Don't worry CrazyDavey, you are special too.

And that response pretty much sums it up and proves my point. You have nothing.

Twist and turn, flip and flop, pick and choose what data suits your opinion. It is all smoke and mirrors from you "WannabeBuffalo".

Awaiting your witty response

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

And that response pretty much sums it up and proves my point. You have nothing.

Twist and turn, flip and flop, pick and choose what data suits your opinion. It is all smoke and mirrors from you "WannabeBuffalo".

LOl... I'll forget about you being able to add anything to the topic, you can't even come up with your own insults....

Pure impotence without hammer....

At least you are good for a laugh.

Drink up, Happy Easter.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

LOl... I'll forget about you being able to add anything to the topic, you can't even come up with your own insults....

Pure impotence without hammer....

At least you are good for a laugh.

Drink up, Happy Easter.

Come up with something worth wasting time over WannabeBuffalo. You just proved in your last few responses that you have nothing. Someone as smart as you think you are should have a better come back. Answer some of the serious questions I asked you.

Please, tell us what makes your opinion so much more important than anyone else's...

[waldedw]

not sure we can count on the Alberta Govn't to do what is right for the sheep population, or in fact for anything regarding the hunting regulations, but we are stuck with them, just as every other jurisdiction is and we the public have to put up with it if we want to hunt

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by waldedw

not sure we can count on the Alberta Govn't to do what is right for the sheep population, or in fact for anything regarding the hunting regulations, but we are stuck with them, just as every other jurisdiction is and we the public have to put up with it if we want to hunt

No, we do t have to put up with it. We can fight bad policy and flawed science tooth and nail as many are.