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  #31  
Old 03-18-2018, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fordtruckin View Post
Hehe whose poop bear or hunters...
Probably a little of both, imagine sitting in the grass eating dandelions and you stand up to stretch when all hell breaks loose....I would poop too then you run head on into one of the fellas with the boom stick and there is where you have another poop....so ya a little of both.
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  #32  
Old 03-18-2018, 06:30 PM
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Spray is highly effective when it comes to almost every type of bear and the studies prove it and my experience using it backs it, but as stated above the best defence is being bear aware. People get hurt more when they use a gun rather than not due to being injured and/or ****ed off. I’ve had to use it twice, once with a sow with cubs and once with a boar. Both times they backed off quick and left. Not sure if I had waited that they might have backed down but wasn’t waiting to find out. In 4 summers working every day in BCs backcountry I ran into many bears and not one of them seemed to want to eat me. I would’ve hated it if I killed the sow though knowing now that she left with her cubs and no injuries sustained by me.
A handgun would be nice as a backup though if one did get mauled. Nice and close but could push more injuries onto you if the bear is only wanting to put you down and then leave but now it’s ****ed off and going to kill you.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/docume...vs_bullets.pdf

Roamed up and down Vancouver island in the back country fishing, camping, working with a 303 or shotty across my back, went to Alaska and carried a handgun when out fishing....nothing like having a grizz walk out 20 yards to grab a fish and go back into the dense cover...of all these years ran into many bears that bolted, thank god, stood up to check me out or stole my stringer of cutthroat trout...if I had the chance I had a bead on them and made noise or backed out but I tell ya give me a firearm over any spray anytime anywhere, now I know a lot of parks don't allow firearms so spray it is....your need to make noise as to not startle them, allowing them time to move on before you even get near them, keep a clean neat camp but even with all the precautions you get a rogue bear that has no fear of man...well spray away...on another note you only see probably 1 out of the 30 bears in a season while trudging through the woods.
To each their own.
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  #33  
Old 03-18-2018, 07:43 PM
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How many Conservation Officers carry bear spray?
How many carry bear spray when dealing with bears?
I'm a game warden and every bear call we go on our first line of defense is bear spray, even if we know we have a wounded bear it still accompanies us.
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  #34  
Old 03-18-2018, 08:16 PM
parfleche parfleche is offline
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The moral of all this bears phobia is
IF you are scared ?
Pack spray or a gun !
Or both !
If you are not scared , carry something anything that builds your confidence !
Or better yet don’t go out to bear country !
Why ruin your day over a MAYBE incident ?
It’s real simple and the topic has been hashed to death ! Have fun !
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fordtruckin View Post
I'm a game warden and every bear call we go on our first line of defense is bear spray, even if we know we have a wounded bear it still accompanies us.
The Officers I know carry a 12 gauge and or rifle. That is their first line of defence for a charging Bear. Dangerous Bear.

Bear Spray is carried some times but most of the Officers I have chatted with say it is ineffective for the most part. They usually pat their side arm and point to their shotgun.

They are not gun hungry Officers they just dont want to risk being mauled by a bear if they dont have to be.
When they do fish counts they have lots of interactions with Bears. 99.9% is the bear is just getting some fish to eat and leaves the Officers alone.
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:43 PM
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I don't want to have worry about which way the wind is blowing when I get into another tense bear situation. There's been a few but haven't had to use my spray yet. I have heard stories from guides on being blinded by your own bear spray if your down wind. The guy was rolling around face first in the snow next to a grizz just to see. I'd be more comfortable packing a short barrel shotgun with pistol grip in a holster for access when flyfishing or bow hunting. I'll most likely never use it but better to have and not need it than need it and not have it
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  #37  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ctd View Post
The Officers I know carry a 12 gauge and or rifle. That is their first line of defence for a charging Bear. Dangerous Bear.

Bear Spray is carried some times but most of the Officers I have chatted with say it is ineffective for the most part. They usually pat their side arm and point to their shotgun.

They are not gun hungry Officers they just dont want to risk being mauled by a bear if they dont have to be.
When they do fish counts they have lots of interactions with Bears. 99.9% is the bear is just getting some fish to eat and leaves the Officers alone.

To each their own I guess but that’s how we do things and I care to say i have more bear calls specifically grizzly calls than many other wardens in most places. Even my two bear specialists who have combined over 50 years trapping and working with griz recommend spray first. The usgs federal bear trapper in my area does the same. That’s not to say we don’t have a firearm with us but if we don’t have to kill a bear we don’t. Most bears aren’t causing any problems and if they attack it’s a defensive attack and they are just trying to get away and be left alone.
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  #38  
Old 03-19-2018, 08:38 AM
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My 2cents is this: Bear spray has its place, its perks & its downfalls. But sidearms without a doubt fill a void in certain conditions & scenarios where spray (& long-guns for that matter) just can't properly serve the situation... and articles like the OP posted keep proving so

It's also in my opinion that it's both foolish & ignorant for anybody to dispute or completely argue against a handgun (or spray; & vice versa) because every situtation is different. The argument of one vs the other can literally go on forever. The bottom line is that a sidearm is a tool of availability that (we-should; in Canada) have the right to include with us no different than sprays, shotguns or rifles. Each and every one has an application & a place, and each their downfalls too.. but presently, it's the sidearms we are being blocked from from-use. So instead of pounding at each other with a one vs the other debate, we should be pushing for a re-write of the permitting to open that barrier we're blocked of...

Articles like posted here are better used for leverage on the topic than for pointless debate against ourselves. Facts are Facts. Sidearms should be permitted in some form for backcountry-users and hunters & fisherman alike. Not just the select-few the system is set up for at the moment.
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  #39  
Old 03-19-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by whiskeywillow View Post
My 2cents is this: Bear spray has its place, its perks & its downfalls. But sidearms without a doubt fill a void in certain conditions & scenarios where spray (& long-guns for that matter) just can't properly serve the situation... and articles like the OP posted keep proving so

It's also in my opinion that it's both foolish & ignorant for anybody to dispute or completely argue against a handgun (or spray; & vice versa) because every situtation is different. The argument of one vs the other can literally go on forever. The bottom line is that a sidearm is a tool of availability that (we-should; in Canada) have the right to include with us no different than sprays, shotguns or rifles. Each and every one has an application & a place, and each their downfalls too.. but presently, it's the sidearms we are being blocked from from-use. So instead of pounding at each other with a one vs the other debate, we should be pushing for a re-write of the permitting to open that barrier we're blocked of...

Articles like posted here are better used for leverage on the topic than for pointless debate against ourselves. Facts are Facts. Sidearms should be permitted in some form for backcountry-users and hunters & fisherman alike. Not just the select-few the system is set up for at the moment.
^^^--X10. A movement needs to be initiated in Canada reg: this very thing. Why is not the CCFR./ NFA/CSSA. persuing this more aggressively is a valid question.
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  #40  
Old 03-19-2018, 09:52 AM
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What is +P, never heard of it, assume high velocity powder for heavy loads for my 357 magnum, please advise.
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  #41  
Old 03-19-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by whiskeywillow View Post
My 2cents is this: Bear spray has its place, its perks & its downfalls. But sidearms without a doubt fill a void in certain conditions & scenarios where spray (& long-guns for that matter) just can't properly serve the situation... and articles like the OP posted keep proving so

It's also in my opinion that it's both foolish & ignorant for anybody to dispute or completely argue against a handgun (or spray; & vice versa) because every situtation is different. The argument of one vs the other can literally go on forever. The bottom line is that a sidearm is a tool of availability that (we-should; in Canada) have the right to include with us no different than sprays, shotguns or rifles. Each and every one has an application & a place, and each their downfalls too.. but presently, it's the sidearms we are being blocked from from-use. So instead of pounding at each other with a one vs the other debate, we should be pushing for a re-write of the permitting to open that barrier we're blocked of...

Articles like posted here are better used for leverage on the topic than for pointless debate against ourselves. Facts are Facts. Sidearms should be permitted in some form for backcountry-users and hunters & fisherman alike. Not just the select-few the system is set up for at the moment.
I certainly support the ability to carry sidearms in the back country, but I am wondering what caliber or cartridge we should be chambering for Bear defence. I'm almost certain some chamberings would be grossly inadequate. What would you suggest ?
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2018, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
What is +P, never heard of it, assume high velocity powder for heavy loads for my 357 magnum, please advise.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
Kind of, usually +p is only available in 9mm 38spc and 45

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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
I certainly support the ability to carry sidearms in the back country, but I am wondering what caliber or cartridge we should be chambering for Bear defence. I'm almost certain some chamberings would be grossly inadequate. What would you suggest ?
If your looking for a handgun in black bear country no smaller then 357mag in griz country at least a 44mag. Rifles I know many that go on backcountry patrol with a 30/30 or 32 win special. I use a 35 Remington and of course nothing much will beat a 45/70 or 450 marlin.
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  #43  
Old 03-19-2018, 12:08 PM
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Considering firearm Bear Defence in a region where Grizzlies are totally protected and Black Bear are protected by limited seasons means that any defensive shot with any type of firearm against either had best take place within a perimeter of about 20 feet and the shot be placed in the frontal area. Anything other than a frontal shot would require a lot of explaining to a CO or other enforcement agent as to it being necessarily defensive. That is the way the law would read it. Apart from that we are on our own.

That said, there is not a firearm or chemical made that will guarantee anything good will come out of any such confrontation under those circumstances. In the unlikely event that such a situation does arise, a handgun, of any caliber, would likely prove to be the most useless Bear defence tool ever considered. Second best I'm thinking, would be a large caliber heavy bullet or a 12 ga slug or heavy buckshot placed within a 5" target area in less than five seconds. Bear Spray, properly deployed ,will at least give you a much better chance as opposed to one strategically placed shot with any type of firearm. Depending on a handgun and luck alone probably won't play much of a role IMO.
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2018, 01:17 PM
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Considering firearm Bear Defence in a region where Grizzlies are totally protected and Black Bear are protected by limited seasons means that any defensive shot with any type of firearm against either had best take place within a perimeter of about 20 feet and the shot be placed in the frontal area. Anything other than a frontal shot would require a lot of explaining to a CO or other enforcement agent as to it being necessarily defensive. That is the way the law would read it. Apart from that we are on our own.

That said, there is not a firearm or chemical made that will guarantee anything good will come out of any such confrontation under those circumstances. In the unlikely event that such a situation does arise, a handgun, of any caliber, would likely prove to be the most useless Bear defence tool ever considered. Second best I'm thinking, would be a large caliber heavy bullet or a 12 ga slug or heavy buckshot placed within a 5" target area in less than five seconds. Bear Spray, properly deployed ,will at least give you a much better chance as opposed to one strategically placed shot with any type of firearm. Depending on a handgun and luck alone probably won't play much of a role IMO.
Bold portion; there is 90+ years worth of literature & accounts (since at least the 20's) proving that otherwise. And to address your previous comment that fordtruckin already replied to; there is as many years in the same literature and accounts showing 250grain Hardcast 44 bullets @ or around 1200 fps that proves an inarguable standard that the 44magnum is a good choice as sidearm chambering. In the 20's through til the 50's, outdoorsmen utilized 44specials loaded-up to the above mentioned power levels with great success... those loads lead the way to the inception of the magnum in the 50's and with the magnum it provided an additional 200-300fps gain on the same bullet that held the outdoorsmens standard in heavy 44specials so long, more recently the 300gr bullets have come into the picture and have-as-well added to that Standard & the 44mags widely accepted power level for field use..

We already know it's wise to have spray, we know the conditions and circumstances where it will and won't work. We also realize a 375H&H (or bazooka for that matter) would trump a sidearm where we have time to deploy such sizeable defense-arm, but physical capabilities and the logistical side to getting such things into play becomes obviously detrimental; so, there-enter your 44 or 475L (or what have you) and it allows us that last-resort piece that could save (& regularily does save) individuals from life-altering/& often fatal situaltions.

That's the part to drive home here. Where sprays and long-guns/slug guns, etc become moot points for use, the sidearm "comes into its own" so to speak. That's what they're for. And backcountry instances where their role is most logically called-on, we (Canadians) should have the ability to apply them so. It's the permitting system we have and "who" is applicable (here) as an applicant that needs to be changed... that permitting system and the way it's written is what's failing us outdoorsmen here in Canada. Not the fact that a sidearm can't save our life if it had to.
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  #45  
Old 03-19-2018, 02:32 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Bold portion; there is 90+ years worth of literature & accounts (since at least the 20's) proving that otherwise. And to address your previous comment that fordtruckin already replied to; there is as many years in the same literature and accounts showing 250grain Hardcast 44 bullets @ or around 1200 fps that proves an inarguable standard that the 44magnum is a good choice as sidearm chambering. In the 20's through til the 50's, outdoorsmen utilized 44specials loaded-up to the above mentioned power levels with great success... those loads lead the way to the inception of the magnum in the 50's and with the magnum it provided an additional 200-300fps gain on the same bullet that held the outdoorsmens standard in heavy 44specials so long, more recently the 300gr bullets have come into the picture and have-as-well added to that Standard & the 44mags widely accepted power level for field use..

We already know it's wise to have spray, we know the conditions and circumstances where it will and won't work. We also realize a 375H&H (or bazooka for that matter) would trump a sidearm where we have time to deploy such sizeable defense-arm, but physical capabilities and the logistical side to getting such things into play becomes obviously detrimental; so, there-enter your 44 or 475L (or what have you) and it allows us that last-resort piece that could save (& regularily does save) individuals from life-altering/& often fatal situaltions.

That's the part to drive home here. Where sprays and long-guns/slug guns, etc become moot points for use, the sidearm "comes into its own" so to speak. That's what they're for. And backcountry instances where their role is most logically called-on, we (Canadians) should have the ability to apply them so. It's the permitting system we have and "who" is applicable (here) as an applicant that needs to be changed... that permitting system and the way it's written is what's failing us outdoorsmen here in Canada. Not the fact that a sidearm can't save our life if it had to.
I see the point you're getting at. What I don't, and probably never will see, is the unfailing ability, by most, to effectively utilize a large frame , large caliber Magnum handgun under the above mentioned circumstances. To each their own, of course, but I still think most of us would be much better served with a spray deterrent or secondly, a larger caliber rifle or shotgun.
An improperly applied handgun, or any other firearm for that matter, could often cause much more grief than the situation warranted in the first place.
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  #46  
Old 03-19-2018, 02:54 PM
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Spray is highly effective when it comes to almost every type of bear and the studies prove it and my experience using it backs it, but as stated above the best defence is being bear aware. People get hurt more when they use a gun rather than not due to being injured and/or ****ed off. I’ve had to use it twice, once with a sow with cubs and once with a boar. Both times they backed off quick and left. Not sure if I had waited that they might have backed down but wasn’t waiting to find out. In 4 summers working every day in BCs backcountry I ran into many bears and not one of them seemed to want to eat me. I would’ve hated it if I killed the sow though knowing now that she left with her cubs and no injuries sustained by me.
A handgun would be nice as a backup though if one did get mauled. Nice and close but could push more injuries onto you if the bear is only wanting to put you down and then leave but now it’s ****ed off and going to kill you.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/docume...vs_bullets.pdf
I do not have experience with Grizzlies, but I agree black bears are a minimal risk. Spent 17 years in a mountain town and some seasons I would see them every hike, bike ride, run I would take - often with cubs.

Always carry bearspray just in case... but never come close to using it. I am fine with people carrying a handgun in the backcountry, but I do not see it as something I would ever want to bother with for black bears.
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  #47  
Old 03-19-2018, 02:56 PM
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I have a good friend that was charged by a big grizz near valley view Alta,and I asked him directly if bear spray would have been enough of a defence, his exact words were NOT a Fu..ing chance,after I believe 3 shots from a 30-06 the bear was still on it's feet for a bit, Thank goodness no one was hurt,so in my opinion after having this conversation,lead is the best defence,and I own bear spray.
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  #48  
Old 03-19-2018, 03:05 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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I have a good friend that was charged by a big grizz near valley view Alta,and I asked him directly if bear spray would have been enough of a defence, his exact words were NOT a Fu..ing chance,after I believe 3 shots from a 30-06 the bear was still on it's feet for a bit, Thank goodness no one was hurt,so in my opinion after having this conversation,lead is the best defence,and I own bear spray.
Good point ! A rifle served him well. How do you think he would have felt with just a handgun ?
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:44 PM
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We did discuss that option too and he said that would be the best case scenario,but said honestly spray wouldn't have stopped the bear,they even stuck the gun barrel into the bears mouth as a last resort,but were out of ammo.
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  #50  
Old 03-20-2018, 05:55 AM
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I have a good friend that was charged by a big grizz near valley view Alta,and I asked him directly if bear spray would have been enough of a defence, his exact words were NOT a Fu..ing chance,after I believe 3 shots from a 30-06 the bear was still on it's feet for a bit, Thank goodness no one was hurt,so in my opinion after having this conversation,lead is the best defence,and I own bear spray.
Yup there is a difference between bear deterrents in which is the spray, a rifle, sho gun or handgun can be used in this fashion too but can quickly be turned into a lethal end to the bear....can't say the same for spray unless you have one hell of a pitching arm....blue Jays might give you a phone call.
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  #51  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:43 AM
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It was probably just his artistic/journalistic writing abilities that he fabricated for the story.
SSS if your worried about bears or stay home.
Rob
Rob
Didn't you read #8?
He WAS at home! The bear invited himself into the house, but rather than being a good neighbor and offering him a cup of tea to go with the box of chocolates he was having for a snack... he SHOT the poor animal! Right in his house.
Don't go visit this guy uninvited! And especially stay out of his chocolates!!!
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:00 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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FordTruckin, thanks for info on +P , nice read on different loads. I think I will try to get some for my trapline ATC carry. The grizz on my line get quite large and a little extra stopping power would not hurt.
For the guy who felt most of us could not shoot well enough with handgun, you do not get ATC now unless you can shoot like Clint Eastwood.
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  #53  
Old 03-21-2018, 01:00 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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FordTruckin, thanks for info on +P , nice read on different loads. I think I will try to get some for my trapline ATC carry. The grizz on my line get quite large and a little extra stopping power would not hurt.
For the guy who felt most of us could not shoot well enough with handgun, you do not get ATC now unless you can shoot like Clint Eastwood.
To be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for a lawful occupational purpose, such as trapping or working in a wilderness area, an individual must be a Canadian resident, have a firearms licence with restricted privileges and obtain an Authorization to Carry (ATC) permit from the CFP. To apply for an ATC permit, form RCMP 5491, Application for Authorization to Carry Restricted Firearms and Prohibited Handguns, must be submitted. There is a non-refundable fee of $40 to apply for an ATC.

I may have missed the competency requirement ..
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  #54  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:04 PM
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Bear spray my dudes.
Most effective
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  #55  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:08 PM
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45/70 works good for me
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  #56  
Old 03-21-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
What is +P, never heard of it, assume high velocity powder for heavy loads for my 357 magnum, please advise.


+ Pressure / performance. The .44 Mag +P 250 gr load at 1500 fps provides about 1500 ft lb of G Bear Stompin energy at 25 yds. A .357 +P will be considerably less... a .454 Casull may nearly double the .44. Mag.

Bear Spray never looked better.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:40 AM
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Reading those accounts it seems like a whole bunch of bluff-charging bears got smoked for no reason.
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  #58  
Old 03-22-2018, 08:58 AM
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Reading those accounts it seems like a whole bunch of bluff-charging bears got smoked for no reason.
I guess those people don’t bluff....
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  #59  
Old 03-22-2018, 11:45 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Talking moose, I guess we need to wait until grizz saliva on our face before we shoot. Salvee, getting ATC is a marithon, before Jan 2017 you only needed to shoot 60% now well over 80% on 3 distances and two shooting positions, need to be tested by range officer. Grilling by a number of CFO,s also quite an experience. Paper work worse than completing income tax returns for business.
Minimum caliber approved for grizz is 357 mag and polar bear 44 mag.

Last edited by Big Grey Wolf; 03-22-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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  #60  
Old 03-22-2018, 12:32 PM
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Mossy 500 JIC mariner, the best bang for weight ratio I can find. I would love to find a better option though still kinda heavy.


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