Student Activsm vs US Gun Legislation

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

President Trump ready to push for more comprehensive background checks, raise purchase age to 21, end sale of bump stocks, and CC for teachers ... needle seems to moving.

I wonder how many teachers will carry concealed. Probably a lot more than we think.

So far the best suggestion.

It is ironic that gun free zones have yet to stop a shooter. Taking those “gun free zone” signs off of schools may be the solution.

[EZM]

The bottom line is pretty simple to me - doing nothing is NOT an option.

A set of common sense mechanism(s) to support stronger background screening, purchase controls, restriction for high risk purchasers is at least a step that needs to be taken.

I don't think either "camp" in this issue wants to see more tragedies like this one.

I don't think anyone in either "camp" thinks this person should have had access to any weapons.

Gun ownership is a right not a privilege and to protect that right we must move forward to reducing the incident rates of tragedies like this from happening. We need to focus on people control and the leave the guns out of this equation. Doing nothing will result in greater solidarity amongst the antis and more extreme legislation pushed focused on "gun control".

"People control" legislation which is what we need to help fix this. These younger Americans become voters and, at that point, all could be lost if we don't focus on the real issue here which isn't an AR-15.

I think what the young people are doing makes sense to them - I respect their position and would be happy to work with them to help identify the real issue (people control), draft appropriate legislation to accomplish more robust pre-screening, purchase controls, etc..

This makes sense. It's not that tough. We risk nothing as gun advocates and gun owners if we pass common sense people control legislation.

And before all of the people jump all over this saying "criminals don't follow the rules" or that these measures "will not eliminate all the tragedies" - you are 100% right - BUT keep in mind doing nothing is NOT an option.

Digging our heels into the sand does not turn out in our favour - so let's work together and move this forward one more step in the right direction for an effect we can both agree on which is keeping weapons away from high risk people which will result in fewer tragedies like this.

And, measures like this WILL stop some of these tragedies, and will force high risk people to seek other illegal channels to acquire weapons which does increase the possibility of them getting caught before it's too late and someone's child is dead.

We (the gun owners and advocates) need to be leading this so that we can foster a change that both addresses the real issue, yet allows the rights and liberties of us all to remain intact.

[Fish along]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

The thing is...they are today's students...they are tomorrow voting adults.
It isn't now I'm worried about...it's 20 years from now.
I still want to be able to put a lever action in a scabbard on my wheelchair in the old folks home

[bat119]

After every mass shooting the call for gun control, guns sales sky rocket rinse repeat.
The US needs some kind of control, problem is every state has their own laws getting 50 states to agree on anything is impossible.

POTUS lip service
Trump talks about banning the sale of bump stocks instead it should be illegal to possess one I could make one in my garage.

Guns are easy to get in most states, at a garage sale in AZ guy had a P38 for $250 I told him I was from Canada what would need to buy it he said $250 US dollars no Canadian. I told him I would have to pass

[Fish along]

Originally Posted by EZM

The bottom line is pretty simple to me - doing nothing is NOT an option.

A set of common sense mechanism(s) to support stronger background screening, purchase controls, restriction for high risk purchasers is at least a step that needs to be taken.

I don't think either "camp" in this issue wants to see more tragedies like this one.

I don't think anyone in either "camp" thinks this person should have had access to any weapons.

Gun ownership is a right not a privilege and to protect that right we must move forward to reducing the incident rates of tragedies like this from happening. We need to focus on people control and the leave the guns out of this equation. Doing nothing will result in greater solidarity amongst the antis and more extreme legislation pushed focused on "gun control".

"People control" legislation which is what we need to help fix this. These younger Americans become voters and, at that point, all could be lost if we don't focus on the real issue here which isn't an AR-15.

I think what the young people are doing makes sense to them - I respect their position and would be happy to work with them to help identify the real issue (people control), draft appropriate legislation to accomplish more robust pre-screening, purchase controls, etc..

This makes sense. It's not that tough. We risk nothing as gun advocates and gun owners if we pass common sense people control legislation.

And before all of the people jump all over this saying "criminals don't follow the rules" or that these measures "will not eliminate all the tragedies" - you are 100% right - BUT keep in mind doing nothing is NOT an option.

Digging our heels into the sand does not turn out in our favour - so let's work together and move this forward one more step in the right direction for an effect we can both agree on which is keeping weapons away from high risk people which will result in fewer tragedies like this.

And, measures like this WILL stop some of these tragedies, and will force high risk people to seek other illegal channels to acquire weapons which does increase the possibility of them getting caught before it's too late and someone's child is dead.

We (the gun owners and advocates) need to be leading this so that we can foster a change that both addresses the real issue, yet allows the rights and liberties of us all to remain intact.

This is very well said, and is definitely the appropriate way to deal with this problem,,people control,,

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by Newview01

I wonder how many teachers will carry concealed. Probably a lot more than we think.

So far the best suggestion.

It is ironic that gun free zones have yet to stop a shooter. Taking those “gun free zone” signs off of schools may be the solution.

Great idea, teachers with guns,

* Student/Students who has trouble acquiring firearm for murderous rampage,

Would then over power armed teacher , shoot up school,

get detention ?

[Stinky Buffalo]

"People Control" - I can't help but think of the Third Reich, USSR, China... We must be careful what we wish for. How much extra intrusion/surveillance/control do we want to add to our lives?

It brings to mind a song about written by Kerry Livgren/Steve Walsh - "Sparks of the Tempest".

The future is managed, and your freedom's a joke
You don't know the difference as you put on the yoke
The less that you know the more you fall into place
A cog in the wheel, there is no soul in your face

Big Brother is watching and he likes what he sees
A world for the taking, when he's ready to squeeze
The King and the Queen are gone, each piece is the same
The difference between us is a part of the game

It's easy to point the finger and say, "That person is deranged, take away his guns!"

Now what if someone points their finger at me and says the same thing - and I was just having a bad day? Or I was tired? Or heaven forbid I would have been diagnosed with SAD? Where is the threshold where a person becomes a danger to others? For some, they can hide it really well, others, like the most recent case, the markers were more visible. This is no simple task.

Illegal this, illegal that - It's been said many times: murder is illegal already. It's not preventing these kinds of horrible events.

The truth is, we as a culture don't hold each other accountable. In fact, we are programming our culture to not hold ourselves accountable - "I'm a product of my environment" and "it's not my fault" etc.

We don't even have a homogeneous culture, really. There is no prevailing code of conduct that dictates honorable behavior, beyond that which is stipulated by law. Why is that? When we talk about the "good old days" of being able to have a gun rack in our trucks, leave the doors unlocked, etc., was that not because there was a general cultural morality (for lack of a better word) that was being adhered to in a wider fashion?

Think of this example (not my own, but I would like to "borrow" it): In an airplane, what does the warning say on bathrooms' smoke detectors? It'll read something like this: "Do not tamper with, disable, or destroy the smoke detector". Why so many words? It's because we, by human nature, are quick to look for loopholes to excuse ourselves for behaving outside the letter of the law. That's where accountability and honorable behavior has to come in to play for a society to function.

"Something has to be done!" Of course, and something will be done. Adding legislation to restrict firearms will be a relatively simple step to execute, and I can guarantee that it will gain popularity/votes from a large segment of the public.

What I can't guarantee is that it will prevent another tragedy.

What would make a difference? There are no simple answers. But, for starters, we need to begin looking out for each other better.

[260 Rem]

Perhaps the student movement is "the right group at the right time", and will drive change regarding shootings in American schools. Time will tell.
There is much misunderstanding regarding schools being "gun free" zones which is simply an administrative tool that enables school authorities to deal with guns on the property. For example, as a principal I would not run into a "rights" argument when taking a gun from a student, teacher, parent, or visitor. On a day-to-day basis this makes everyone safer. We don't have the rights issue in Canadian schools, it is unique to the US. Here in Canada principals deal more with knives, "blunt instruments", etc and nobody gets all hissy regarding these "knife free" zones.

[Newellknik]

Makes sense to me .....especially at the end !
Subject versus citizens.


https://www.therebel.media/why_ameri...tions_gun_laws

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Why is it always the gun that gets blamed and not the person who is using it? Why is nobody screaming for better access to mental health? I think it's just a lot easier to blame the guns for everything than the mentally ill person pulling the trigger.

Could culture not also be a part of the problem? I would love to find out how many of these young killers spent much of their time playing extremely violent video games that depict people being shot before becoming so desensitized that they transitioned to the real thing. I don't think that there is any one issue that is at play and can be blamed that would have changed the outcome. There could be a whole host of factors at play such as: genetics with a family history of mental illness, medications being used, broken home, antisocial behavior, extended use of violent video games, listening to music with violent lyrics, copycat behavior of previous young killers, being bullied at school, having other people influence them, etc. etc. I think that if people studied the past killers, they would find that many of these played a role and were a part of the killers lives. This student sounded like a ticking time bomb with many of the other students saying that they were not the least bit surprised that he was the killer.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Perhaps the student movement is "the right group at the right time", and will drive change regarding shootings in American schools. Time will tell.
There is much misunderstanding regarding schools being "gun free" zones which is simply an administrative tool that enables school authorities to deal with guns on the property. For example, as a principal I would not run into a "rights" argument when taking a gun from a student, teacher, parent, or visitor. On a day-to-day basis this makes everyone safer. We don't have the rights issue in Canadian schools, it is unique to the US. Here in Canada principals deal more with knives, "blunt instruments", etc and nobody gets all hissy regarding these "knife free" zones.

No, you are wrong on the gun free zone thing.

As a fact, over 95% of mass shootings occur in gun free zones. They are known as soft targets. Do you support that?

I also like how Trump suggested that maybe teachers who are armed be paid a bonus. That is an investment that will pay back with saved lives.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Newview01

No, you are wrong on the gun free zone thing.

As a fact, over 95% of mass shootings occur in gun free zones. They are known as soft targets. Do you support that?

I also like how Trump suggested that maybe teachers who are armed be paid a bonus. That is an investment that will pay back with saved lives.

Since many shooters seem to turn their guns on themselves or have a death by cop wish I do not think arming the teachers would be much of a deterrent. Death by librarian or death by music teacher may not seem all that much a blaze of glory but would still get the job done.

[Mr Flyguy]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

The thing is...they are today's students...they are tomorrow voting adults.
It isn't now I'm worried about...it's 20 years from now.
I still want to be able to put a lever action in a scabbard on my wheelchair in the old folks home

Yeah. Read Margaret Atwood's short story "Torching the Dusties" and you'll want all in the old folks home to have a rifle!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Since many shooters seem to turn their guns on themselves or have a death by cop wish I do not think arming the teachers would be much of a deterrent. Death by librarian or death by music teacher may not seem all that much a blaze of glory but would still get the job done.

Whether it deters people, or whether a teacher shoots and kills the shooter before the shooter runs out of ammunition or available targets, lives may still be saved. The headlines may read three students killed before teacher kills shooter, instead of seventeen students/teachers killed.

[2 Tollers]

I think the US is near the peak of this issue and they will need to take a number of steps over time to get it under control. Better data sharing between police, doctors and schools will not happen overnight. Banning select guns while feeling good to some will not immediately deter active shooters.

What could be an immediate deterrent is change the definition of gun free for schools to be students and parents, teachers only are allowed to be trained and carry. Have a couple of active shooters shot by teachers and this makes the news the copy cat school shooters will start to re-think. Over a few years the situation will calm down and at that point slowly reset back to normal.

What is happening now is not normal and only strong firm action will make a noticeable correction. This would not be the only step. Move on controls and background checks but to get schools out of harm’s way you cannot rely on paper controls any longer. Demonstrate that if you intend to do harm, harm and hurt will come to you fast and hard.

[260 Rem]

The Guns-free Zones Act (1990) which applies specifically to schools does provide for exemptions. Although the student position may change as the movement evolves, at this point they have spoken against arming teachers. In the Parkland shooting, an armed Deputy was on site and in fact may have been very close to the building under attack.

[colroggal]

No need to quote everybody:

Comments in the rebel article are interesting. It should be noted that the largest modern Canadian massacre involved gasoline and locked doors and the second largest involved a semi auto rifle that has never been added to the restricted list despite that massacre being the catalist for the restr8cted classification and magazine cap restrictions - oh and the shooter attempted to modify the rifle to make it full auto and succeeded only in turning it into a straight pull bolt action.

Nothing makes sense. But post 67 should be re-read... slowly.

Colin

[Newview01]

There is a book called "Gun Control in the Third Reich" . Worth a read. Gun control is a path we should avoid at all costs. Gun / weapon control has never worked out in the favour of any citizenry in the past.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Whether it deters people, or whether a teacher shoots and kills the shooter before the shooter runs out of ammunition or available targets, lives may still be saved. The headlines may read three students killed before teacher kills shooter, instead of seventeen students/teachers killed.

or it might read that some of the dead where not killed by the original shooter and probably shot by the teacher

[Hunter guy]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

or it might read that some of the dead where not killed by the original shooter and probably shot by the teacher

I personally would rather be shot by a person trying to kill the shooter than to sit and wait for the cops to get there and get slautered by him.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

or it might read that some of the dead where not killed by the original shooter and probably shot by the teacher

Really? You think thats what will happen?

[260 Rem]

Relax guys, I’ve got a valid teaching certificate...I will protect you

[Jim]

now being reported that the school cop who was armed just stood outside the school while the shooting took place. You are responsible for your own safety, cops just stand outside until shooting stops, useless excuse for a person.

[Supergrit]

If you don’t have proper training for these type of situations armed teachers may not help that much.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As clueless as many of today's students are, I doubt that they will have the impact that they are hoping. And when the crisis actors start appearing to promote their agenda, they lose even more credibility.

Holy comolly. Nutbar post of the month. Crazy, crazy stuff. Better that you move on, find a forum that fits. Maybe Trump Junior has got something for you.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Originally Posted by Jim

now being reported that the school cop who was armed just stood outside the school while the shooting took place. You are responsible for your own safety, cops just stand outside until shooting stops, useless excuse for a person.

People actual believe that it is a Police Officer's Duty to put themselves in danger in order to protect you. That simply is NOT the case. I would have a
very hard time sleeping if I was that school cop who allowed children to be
shot while I stood outside with a gun and listened to it happen.

I was on YouTube trying to find more information about this shooting and a
fellow was on there and was talking about it. He said that the very best place
to be if you are to die in a mass shooting is a "Gun Free Zone". Do people
really believe that someone who is prepared to gun down and murder a lot
of people is somehow going to take notice of the "Gun Free Zone" sign and
turn around and go somewhere else where they are allowed to have guns?
A gun free zone is simply a way to corral the Lambs.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

Holy comolly. Nutbar post of the month. Crazy, crazy stuff. Better that you move on, find a forum that fits. Maybe Trump Junior has got something for you.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

Holy comolly. Nutbar post of the month. Crazy, crazy stuff. Better that you move on, find a forum that fits. Maybe Trump Junior has got something for you.

Oh the irony.....

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

Holy comolly. Nutbar post of the month. Crazy, crazy stuff. Better that you move on, find a forum that fits. Maybe Trump Junior has got something for you.

agree

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Really? You think thats what will happen?

I think it was just about as well thought out as Elks comment was.