Another thread on helping someone who doesn’t want to be helped

[jstubbs]

Ok guys this is really hard thread to make but I am not sure what more to do. I know there have been threads in the past about this sort of thing but this is serious and I also just think I need to vent because it’s cathartic

Something in my dad has just broke and something needs to be done soon because I am quickly fearing it is becoming too late. He is extremely depressed and miserable. This has been going on about a year and a half now (and I imagine years before this but he was better at hiding it). It all got really bad when he impulsively bought an $800,000 acreage last spring with nothing planned to do about the old house. They put it all on their HELOC off their paid off old house worth about the equivalent. When the old house didn’t sell right away, something about that instantly sent him spiralling into depression. Things started to really look up last winter and he was really starting to return to normal (my mom found an amazing tenant to rent our old house for more than their carrying cost), and then of course COVID hit and he really lost it. I repeatedly told him not to do any hasty but he was sure the world was ending and he panic sold their entire portfolio at the bottom of the market. Then our family restaurant was shut down (but has since been doing OK) and he became a mess. Over the summer I thought things might be improving again but in the last month or so it’s gotten real bad again.

So I still live with them, primarily just to help my mom at this point. My dad goes to work in the morning (our fam restaurant) for a few hours then comes home, and lays in bed all day. All he does is watch the news and go on his phone on FB and youtube and watch things about politics and covid that just stresses himself out. He drinks lots. We have boxes of empty vodka bottles in the garage. He barely eats. He’s lost what looks like basically all his muscle mass and looks frail and sickly. My mom told me some nights he just lays there and cries. It’s so incredibly heart breaking.

He’s become extremely mean as well. Not abusive, thankfully, but Everything is something that ****es him off. He constantly lectures and berates me—but I don’t take it personally because I know he’s hurting. But the worst is how he treats my mom, who has done EVERYTHING for him in the last two years. Seriously, I could write five forum posts about all the **** she has done for him.

Because of all of this, and the fact he has always been a hard headed stubborn person, we can’t seem to get to him at all. In fact honestly, we’re kind of scared of him, not physically, but of “betraying him” and trying to get him help. I’d eager almost anything I own that if we scheduled some kind of intervention he’d freak out and never forgive us for it. My mom and I even agreed that we are scared of the fact he owns guns because we worry about suicide.

I don’t know what to do. This is my dad. He was never like this. He was the exact role model father any one could have asked for. Strong, respected, smart, and caring. Amazing husband to my mom. He used to be the most common sense smart guy I have ever met. It’s insane, the last man I would have ever thought I would be writing this about. I mean He earned a black belt in Kung fu, he has completed multiple iron mans, he had his own dragster and super gas car (in his mid 20s!!), raised two great young men that are university graduates.

Any thoughts or ideas or suggestions help. Sorry if this is wordy or venty. I might have a mod delete this later. But i need this off my chest.

[Ken07AOVette]

Whatever you do, I would say not to do it behind his back, if he is delusional, paranoid and depressed, which seem to go hand in hand it may end badly. Has he got any siblings or relatives that you think he would listen to? He may be too embarrased to discuss his troubles with you and his wife, but there may be a lifelong pal, or someone that he would confide in, and eventually realize that tough as he is, sometimes the medical profession is the only place that has help for someone in his situation.

Beyond that, you know the rest, he knows you care, but at this point he may not. He may need some medication to get him back on track, it could be a chemical imbalance, or a tumor, or something that he will never be able to control until diagnosed. I would say the sooner the better.

[Twisted Canuck]

Truly sorry to hear about your circumstances, that is a really hard and stressful situation. This year has done so much harm to so many people. I can give all the simple and correct answers, and really, they are the right answers. But they sure aren't easy. Your dad needs help, not soon, but immediately. And you and mom too. Get in contact with a professional councillor. And if you can, get the guns gone, now. Right now. Credit to you for reaching out. I'm sure wiser people then me will be posting shortly.

Get the help you need, to help your parents.

[Bergerboy]

Step 1: Get him off booze.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Step 1: Get him off booze.

I wholeheartedly agree with this step. Feeding depression with a depressant is a recipe for disaster.

Dealing with mental illness/depression and addiction is not an easy task for anyone nor those around them.

[ghostguy6]

From the sounds of it you will need to get some sort of professional help involved. Ill admit I am a little out of the loop when it comes to offering help with addiction counseling and metal health support. With Covid going on right now Im not even sure who's open to offer support in a reasonable time frame. I would suggest you call the local support line most communities have set up to deal with mental stress. They should be able to direct you to someone who can set you up with the proper resources. If your dad is a church going man perhaps talking to the pastor could be of help. They often have access to programs being held at the church. Biggest thing at the this point though will be getting your dad to admit he has a problem.

Since you mentioned your father is getting meaner, there is the chance it could escalate. If at any time you feel you or your family is in physical danger or if you feel he might self harm it is time to call 911. I know it sounds like a harsh step but its better than the alternatives. Really I hope it does not come to that but its something you might want to prepare for. If you have a real fear about suicide you need to call the police and get those firearms away from him now.

[fishtank]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Step 1: Get him off booze.

And the gun out of the house . Also winter will take a toll on the brain as well be sure he take vitamins .

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Step 1: Get him off booze.

X lots!!

If he can admit the booze is becoming a problem take him to a AA meeting OUT of his immediate community so he is truly anonymous....just a idea.

[Tfng]

You can’t make him do anything. He needs to decide.

[HunterDave]

You need to talk to a healthcare professional about this. Not just for your Dad but for the whole family.

[comaderek]

Seek professional help and they will guide you through the steps you need to take to help him. Take care.

[KegRiver]

Having been to the bottom myself I can only offer what worked for me.

And that was knowing my kids needed me.

Words did nothing for me, but the picture in my mind of what it would do to my kids if I did something stupid was enough for me to hang on for long enough for time to do it's magic.

If he has grandkids perhaps discussing them, in a positive way, in no way associated with his situation, might help. Just to remind him they are there. Not that they need him, he will figure that much out on his own.

He needs some reason to fight through this, and he will if you can get him thinking about his grandkids. Or someone or something else that needs him.

Sorry, that's all I have to offer beside prayer.

[nitro]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Step 1: Get him off booze.

Sept 2:get him off the internet might be easier to do the internet first

[Sleddawg]

Definitely off the internet and the booze. I agree the social media should be the first, and I think it likely will bring about the biggest change rapidly. Nothing good on that crap anymore.

You say you’re concerned that if you do something for him behind his back that he may never forgive you. You need to decide if you want a father getting better and healing who may eventually come back to reality and appreciate the love you showed or a father that continued to spiral out of control until his demise. I’d rather help and be hated than to not have helped at all.

[204ruger]

Having lived with my wife who has depression and anxiety I know when she gets at her lowest, it really helps to get her out doing something her and the family can do together to show her we are in this together or sometimes it’s a matter of me taking the Kids so she can go and sew and just take her mind off things.

Also the other thing is she does need medication to help those times stay in check which without them she has no drive to even get out of bed, some weeks worse than others. The health professionals for mental illness are there for a reason.

Is there something your dad used to really enjoy doing, maybe once a week activity (I know right now activities are tough). Maybe helping you work on something or anything to show his family needs him and take his mind off the booze or youtube.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by 204ruger

Having lived with my wife who has depression and anxiety I know when she gets at her lowest, it really helps to get her out doing something her and the family can do together to show her we are in this together or sometimes it’s a matter of me taking the Kids so she can go and sew and just take her mind off things.

Also the other thing is she does need medication to help those times stay in check which without them she has no drive to even get out of bed, some weeks worse than others. The health professionals for mental illness are there for a reason.

Is there something your dad used to really enjoy doing, maybe once a week activity (I know right now activities are tough). Maybe helping you work on something or anything to show his family needs him and take his mind off the booze or youtube.

Now that you mention it, my friends and family used to drag me out to do things with them, and although I really didn't feel like going, I did go, in part because I didn't want to admit I had a problem, especially to them.

It's obvious to me now that they knew, but in that state I thought I was the only one that knew and for whatever reason I wanted to keep it that way.

But it helped a lot. Although it didn't seem so to me at the time I know now each outing was a step out of the hole I was in.

I think that your advice is very good advice.

My heart hurts for you sir, you have a tough job ahead. May God bless you and your efforts.

People, I have to say, I don't like to talk about that dark chapter in my life.
I know there are people who will judge those of us who have been there, very harshly. Plus it brings back painful memories.

But if what I went through can help even one other person, I am willing to accept whatever cost there is in telling my story.

Life can get better. Much much better.

[Smoky buck]

If there is activities or hobbies he enjoys try getting him to do them with you. Hopefully this can at least get his mind temporarily off of his stress. It’s not going to solve his depression but will possibly give opportunity to get him to possibly talk about seeing a solution

I don’t know your father and different personalities react to method of help differently. What might be a key factor to bring one person around can push another away

I get the vibe that your father is a strong willed/independent person that normally takes a leader roll. If this is the case he could be one of those people that may not take help unless you can get him convinced it’s the direction he wants to go in first. If I am correct with the personality type this type of person prefers to feel in control of the situation not being lead through it or told what to do. Unfortunately this personality type can be depressed during times they feel they have lost control of the direction they wish to go in life and feel the are failing because others rely on them. I could be reading him completely wrong because I don’t know the man

The main thing try to create a situation that temporarily gets his mind off of his stress before opening dialogue of finding a solution. Also talk to some professionals because even though AO members like myself and others mean well this is something we don’t have all the answers for

Good luck

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Tfng

You can’t make him do anything. He needs to decide.

In the end, that's the bottom line. Easy to get in a rut, but no one but yourself can get you out of it.

Grizz

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Step 1: Get him off booze.

Get him off the booze, if you can take the guns elsewhere, you and your mom seek professional help and hopefully can coax him that way, sorry to hear of this going on in your life....good that you are reaching out but seek professional help as most here can't provide that other than a perspective and support.

[imbezol]

Spend time with him. See if you can get him to agree to a trip you guys have always talked about. Or anything you like to go do together. Head into work with him, and learn how things are going there, and help in any way you can. It's really hard because you're going to have to give up some things in your own life to do it but being there for him will make a huge difference and give him the opportunity to open up to you a bit at a time.

[Cement Bench]

need to know some more personal stuff but a court order for a public trustee ship or a public guardian ship order might be the best


that can be messy but they work

more later but you need to want to take that step before it can work

[calgarychef]

Depression is a bitch. You might want to read up a little about micro doses of physiclobin mushrooms...even though I can never spell that damned word.
They’ve shown great results for some people, it’s not necessary to have a “trip” to experience benefits.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Get him off the booze, if you can take the guns elsewhere, you and your mom seek professional help and hopefully can coax him that way, sorry to hear of this going on in your life....good that you are reaching out but seek professional help as most here can't provide that other than a perspective and support.

This pretty well sums it up.

Even though I don't know you, I wish you, and your immediate family best of luck with this delicate situation.

[RavYak]

Sounds like he is burnt out and frustrated, probably feels he just wasted the last however many years/decades of his work/life because of financial debt and losses from not being able to sell old house, market losses, restaurant slow down etc.

Have an uncle went through something similar during divorce and losing job around the same time. The hardest time was when he didn't know how things were going to end up and he couldn't visualize how things would ever end up ok. Eventually finished the lawyering, sold house, downsized to an apartment (and now up to a smaller house), found a new job and is back on the right path again realizing he didn't need the fancy acreage, multiple cars, snowmobiles and all the debt they brought.

If the financial side, lots of debt etc, is the problem try to figure out ways to address that. Does the old house need renos or something for it to sell? Just needs to be willing to settle for less and if so would doing so reduce debt load and be worth the "loss"? Is the 800k place worth the payments or should they look at downsizing or moving back into the old house and selling the new one?

Finding something new for a passion or focusing on other interests may help, if there is anything he likes to do try and coax him to do it. If going into work at the restaurant doesn't seem to be good for him see if you can change his focus to something else. If getting him working in the restaurant helps then see if you can get him there more often. Most guys just want to feel wanted/needed.

There is lots of free help if he doesn't have insurance/money to pay for counselling etc, check with your family doctor to see if he knows options as there are some programs covered by AHS. If he has insurance or can afford some sessions see if you can talk him into (heck pay for it if you think it will help). Lots of times stubborn guys don't want to talk to their friends/family about what they are actually struggling with and being able to talk to a stranger and get a few ideas can often be a lot easier and beneficial. Don't write off medications either and obviously try to get him off the booze.

Hold on till next spring/summer and things should start turning around.

[Hunter Trav]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Depression is a bitch. You might want to read up a little about micro doses of physiclobin mushrooms...even though I can never spell that damned word.
They’ve shown great results for some people, it’s not necessary to have a “trip” to experience benefits.

I can second this as I've seen what it can do first hand. My ex MIL was beyond depressed for many years and I was sure we would get a call one day saying she finally went over the edge and decided to end things herself. Her son got her onto micro dosing and it made a huge difference for her. She will actually leave the house and do things now where as before she would hardly get out of bed to go to the bathroom. As was mentioned, its not something you do to get "high" or "trip out", as you're not taking enough at any time for that to happen.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

You need to talk to a healthcare professional about this. Not just for your Dad but for the whole family.

Agree, get him to his doc asap.


Did he have a Bypass surgery by chance? My dad got into a real funk after his. Took a long time to get out of it on his own. Almost everyone I talked to whose parent had a by pass said depression followed. Some needed pills to get them over he hump and back to normal. Too bad dads doc though he just needed to get off his azz. Crappy doc.


Good luck with your dad. Make sure you look after yourself too while you help everyone else. Take care.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

need to know some more personal stuff but a court order for a public trustee ship or a public guardian ship order might be the best


that can be messy but they work

more later but you need to want to take that step before it can work

^^this. Blowing the family fortune isn’t going to help anyone. I am going through similar events with a relative who has been diagnosed with vascular dementia at 60. You’re in for an uncomfortable ride but you need to get to it to get through it. Things won’t get better on their own.

[ghfalls]

Sounds like financial stress is one of the key factors going on. Is there anything you and your brother can do to help with the month to month expenses? He probably feels a bit like he’s got the weight of the world o his shoulders and then a couple bad decisions compounded it all. Also agree on the mushrooms. Even a semi mild trip can be good for the mind.

[pittman]

Lots of good thoughts here.

He'll be challenging to help until he's ready to get help. That said, a professional assessment by a psychiatrist could get the ball rolling and get him connected with the right people.

In the mean time, try your best to alleviate his stressors. You've listed a number of them - financial, alcohol, situational stuff with the pandemic. Don't underestimate how much the alcohol is contributing here - its well known the make depression worse and significantly disrupts one's sleep.

After that help him normalize his life. Regular sleep, regular exercise, and a good diet.

Next steps include the formal avenues for treatment such as medication medications and therapy.

Good luck.

[Dolly’s Mom]

You cannot help your dad until he wants help.

From experience, you need help and so does your mom to deal with this difficult situation. Help is out there and available 24/7. I have the entered the numbers in my phone and always have them:

Kids Help Phone 1-800-668-6868
Mental Health Helpline 1-877-303-2642
Canada Suicide Prevention Service 1-833-456-4566
Edmonton Distress Line 780-482-4357
Calgary Distress Centre 403-266-4357

Make a call. It is hard to do. But make the call.