Guided Hunts Opened To Residents

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And the truth is, this "opportunity " only exists to help outfitters financially during the covid crisis. If it was created to increase resident opportunity, it would have happened years ago, before the covid crisis. The truth is, when this covid crisis ends and the Americans are allowed to come to Alberta to hunt again, the outfitters will be happy to sell all of their hunts to Americans again.

Outfitting is a job, just like working in the oil patch which you did for decades to make a life for yourself. People are opposed to the oil and gas industry but it made you a comfortable living, so they are dumb but you deserved to profit from Canada’s natural resources that are distributed world wide so it’s fine. Now these pesky outfitters that are making money off of Canada’s natural resources and they don’t deserve to make a comfortable living because you don’t benefit from it.

Do you see a pot and kettle that was hidden in the trees?

[7mmremmag]

Originally Posted by South west trappin RG

I have no issues with outfitters at all. If you want your draw times shortened make the draw cost more or somehow get the people who draw an never go out to quit puttin in for the draw. I would bet 25 percent of the draw tags never get bought.

This is bang on!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Outfitting is a job, just like working in the oil patch which you did for decades to make a life for yourself. People are opposed to the oil and gas industry but it made you a comfortable living, so they are dumb but you deserved to profit from Canada’s natural resources that are distributed world wide so it’s fine. Now these pesky outfitters that are making money off of Canada’s natural resources and they don’t deserve to make a comfortable living because you don’t benefit from it.

Do you see a pot and kettle that was hidden in the trees?

The oil and gas industry raises billions of dollars every year for the Alberta economy, about 25-30% of Alberta GDP.. That money built hospitals, schools, highways, and a great deal of infrastructure that benefits all Alberta residents. In fact that income benefits all of Canada, it even pays a lot of the transfer payments that Quebec and the Maritimes receive. And the very people that oppose oil and gas and pipelines, still accept the money that this industry brings in. If the oil and gas industry ceases to exist, the standard of living will fall for all residents of Alberta. By comparison, the outfitting industry brings just over $100 million to Alberta each year, that amounts to about $26 per Alberta resident each year. If we lost that 7 cents per day per person, , the vast majority of Alberta residents would not even notice.

[marky_mark]

I think residents should be given the same opportunity as non residents
If you want to buy an allocation for you and friends to hunt
Why not
I think it’s better to have a resident hunting out animals then non residents
I do think that to hunt that allocation you should still Be paying the non resident tag fee also

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The oil and gas industry raises billions of dollars every year for the Alberta economy. That money built hospitals, schools, highways, and a great deal of infrastructure that benefits all Alberta residents. In fact that income benefits all of Canada, it even pays a lot of the transfer payments that Quebec and the Maritimes receive. And the very people that oppose oil and gas and pipelines, still accept the money that this industry brings in. If the oil and gas industry ceases to exist, the standard of living will fall for all residents of Alberta. By comparison, the outfitting industry could cease to exist tomorrow, and the economic fallout would be unnoticed by most Albertans.

Wouldn’t the economic fallout be noticed by all the guides and cooks, wranglers, hotels, restaurants and other businesses and the outfitters themselves?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The oil and gas industry raises billions of dollars every year for the Alberta economy. That money built hospitals, schools, highways, and a great deal of infrastructure that benefits all Alberta residents. In fact that income benefits all of Canada, it even pays a lot of the transfer payments that Quebec and the Maritimes receive. And the very people that oppose oil and gas and pipelines, still accept the money that this industry brings in. If the oil and gas industry ceases to exist, the standard of living will fall for all residents of Alberta. By comparison, the outfitting industry brings just over $100 million to Alberta each year, that amounts to about $25 per Alberta resident each year. If we lost that 8 cents per day per person, , the vast majority of Alberta residents would not even notice.

There are millions of people who think the oil industry in western Canada isn’t needed either, that other industries will take up the slack so just let it die.

To the outfitters in Alberta that $100 million dollar industry means feeding their families and employees who feed their families, even if it means nothing to you !

So why is the industry that feeds your family more important then the industry that feeds their family?

This is what greed looks like, and it’s running rampant in our society today.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Wouldn’t the economic fallout be noticed by all the guides and cooks, wranglers, hotels, restaurants and other businesses and the outfitters themselves?

The outfitters and guides would be effected the most, but the restaurants and hotels not so much. Many outfitters run camps, where hunters sleep and eat, so the local hotels and restaurants don't see huge benefits. And even where hunters do stay in hotels and eat in restaurants, Alberta residents would also stay in hotels and eat at restaurants, if the allocations were changed to resident licenses. When I draw a pronghorn tag, I buy fuel and supplies locally, and I stay in hotels and eat at restaurants, so either way the local businesses benefit. And as I pointed out, at just over $100 million total revenue from outfitting in Alberta, that amounts to about 7 cents per day per Alberta resident , so the impact to Alberta overall is very minor.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There are millions of people who think the oil industry in western Canada isn’t needed either, that other industries will take up the slack so just let it die.

To the outfitters in Alberta that $100 million dollar industry means feeding their families and employees who feed their families, even if it means nothing to you !

So why is the industry that feeds your family more important then the industry that feeds their family?

This is what greed looks like, and it’s running rampant in our society today.

If you are going on people's emotions, yes many people want to see the oil and gas industry shut down. But the fact is that oil and gas make up 25-30% of Alberta's GDP, so what would happen while we are waiting for those other industries to take up the slack? And those same people that protest our and gas , drive vehicles, fly in aircraft, heat with gas, and use products made from petroleum. How many of those people would stop using all oil and gas products immediately, to end the demand for oil and gas? Obviously those people have not thought things through.

In sticking with emotions, how many people are anti firearms? How many are anti hunting? How many of those people would vote to shut down outfitting tomorrow? And unlike with oil and gas, it wouldn't effect those people at all.

So perhaps emotion isn't the argument that you want to rely on.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The oil and gas industry raises billions of dollars every year for the Alberta economy, about 25-30% of Alberta GDP.. That money built hospitals, schools, highways, and a great deal of infrastructure that benefits all Alberta residents. In fact that income benefits all of Canada, it even pays a lot of the transfer payments that Quebec and the Maritimes receive. And the very people that oppose oil and gas and pipelines, still accept the money that this industry brings in. If the oil and gas industry ceases to exist, the standard of living will fall for all residents of Alberta. By comparison, the outfitting industry brings just over $100 million to Alberta each year, that amounts to about $26 per Alberta resident each year. If we lost that 7 cents per day per person, , the vast majority of Alberta residents would not even notice.

LOL!


If you steal a car or if you steal a pack of gum you’re still a thief, can you understand this?


Because you made a living off of raping the land but hundreds of thousands of other people did it too it’s ok, but doing it on a much smaller scale is not ok. Gotcha.

[sns2]

Some of you guides/outfitters have a hard time comprehending English it seems.

A few of you have made the point that AO is anti-outfitter. Well, I have not read a single post that I can recall where anyone is against you earning your living in the way you have chosen. Heck, lots of people would love to try what you do, and envy you for taking the risks you did to do something you enjoyed.
I don't because I know that it is a job just like any other, and not as romantic as many make it out to be. Let's face it, you are working when we are hunting. I'd also say most feel as badly for you as they do for people in the tourism industry who are up against it.

What we have consistently spoken out against is:

1) Non residents being able to access tags each year that residents have to wait in excess of a decade for. Most of us feel that outfitting should be limited to tags that can be bought over the counter. Residents should not have a harder time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents. Fairly straightforward.

2) APOS managing the industry. In every walk of life there are bad apples. Outfitting is no different. And there is a helluva pile of pressure on guides and outfitters to produce, which invariably leads to shenanigans. But the oversight given by this organization is preposterous. Convicted poachers allowed to be on the executive. Huh? Wildlife is a natural resource owned by the citizens of this province, and thus all hunting opportunities should be run by the province as well. Why do outfitters, when they darn well know how unpopular APOS is with most hunters who are aware of the issues, not lobby for a better, more transparent structure?

Feel free to address these two concerns which are stated on this forum by many, over and over and over.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

LOL!


If you steal a car or if you steal a pack of gum you’re still a thief, can you understand this?


Because you made a living off of raping the land but hundreds of thousands of other people did it too it’s ok, but doing it on a much smaller scale is not ok. Gotcha.

Without the oil industry, how would you run an outfitting business? With aircraft or automobiles, how would your clients get to you? How would you transport them on hunts?

[elkhunter11]

I personally would be fine with outfitting for any species , in any location,that a resident can hunt without having to draw a tag. So black bear, whitetailed deer, elk , mule deer, and sheep in some locations, and birds.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you are going on people's emotions, yes many people want to see the oil and gas industry shut down. But the fact is that oil and gas make up 25-30% of Alberta's GDP, so what would happen while we are waiting for those other industries to take up the slack? And those same people that protest our and gas , drive vehicles, fly in aircraft, heat with gas, and use products made from petroleum. How many of those people would stop using all oil and gas products immediately, to end the demand for oil and gas? Obviously those people have not thought things through.

In sticking with emotions, how many people are anti firearms? How many are anti hunting? How many of those people would vote to shut down outfitting tomorrow? And unlike with oil and gas, it wouldn't effect those people at all.

So perhaps emotion isn't the argument that you want to rely on.

You missed the point completely!

In this A & B (me and you) conversation we’re having only one party is advocating to have any industry shut down, and it isn’t me.

You see I support all industry, and anybody who works hard to support their families.

You support the industry that feeds your, and I do to.

The difference is, I would never in a million years down play the importance of any industry that feeds your family. I don’t care if you’re the last remaining chimney sweep in a city with no wood stoves, I’d still support you.

And anybody that doesn’t support an industry for something so trivial as not having 100% of the available draw opportunities in a zone close to their house (ironically you now do but have to pay for the last 10% so that’s not acceptable either) is pretty sad in my opinion!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You missed the point completely!

In this A & B (me and you) conversation we’re having only one party is advocating to have any industry shut down, and it isn’t me.

You see I support all industry, and anybody who works hard to support their families.

You support the industry that feeds your, and I do to.

The difference is, I would never in a million years down play the importance of any industry that feeds your family. I don’t care if you’re the last remaining chimney sweep in a city with no wood stoves, I’d still support you.

And anybody that doesn’t support an industry for something so trivial as not having 100% of the available draw opportunities in a zone close to their house (ironically you now do but have to pay for the last 10% so that’s not acceptable either) is pretty sad in my opinion!

I am not saying shut down the outfitting industry, I am saying limit the species and locations that there are allocations for. If a resident can hunt that animal in that location without having to draw, then let outfitters do the same. If a resident has to draw a tag, then no allocations for that animal, in that location. Saskatchewan is the example that comes to mind as being close to this.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So your outfitting industry promotes the oil industry, so you are just as guilty of "raping the land"

Exactly!

I acknowledge that, you seem have a hard time coming to terms with it.

You are failing to see the shoe on the other foot. Remember, a border is an imaginary line drawn in the sand. You get drawn for a tag, travel across the province and shoot a pronghorn that the local farmers can’t shoot. Do you think the farmer cares if you pay to stay in a hotel? I doubt it. Do you think they care you spend money in a restaurant there? I doubt that too, even though you are contributing to the local economy. As a matter of fact, you are not bringing any money into the Canadian economy that isn’t already here. When an American does the same thing they are actually bringing money into the Canadian economy, which in the grand scheme of things is more beneficial to all Canadians, and I would venture to say especially the non hunting portion of our population.

You have a very narrow minded self serving view of the hunting industry. I get it, I hate the fact that I can’t buy a general bull moose tag for archery anymore, it’s upsetting but it’s the way it is. I also hate the fact I have to pay a buck a liter for gas but someone has to pay for the guys making $70/hr that extract it from the earth.

You made your living off the land, you should understand others have the right to do the same thing.

[KyleSS]

Originally Posted by sns2

1) Non residents being able to access tags each year that residents have to wait in excess of a decade for. Most of us feel that outfitting should be limited to tags that can be bought over the counter. Residents should not have a harder time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents. Fairly straightforward.

It seems like you're the one having a hard time comprehending English.

THIS IS NOW AVAILABLE TO YOU

"Fairly straightforward"

[sns2]

Originally Posted by KyleSS

It seems like you're the one having a hard time comprehending English.

THIS IS NOW AVAILABLE TO YOU

"Fairly straightforward"

You fail to address either point. Kinda what I was expecting. Never changes on any of these threads.

No offence, but I don't want to pay you or anyone else to take me hunting.

BTW, I am glad you can market hunts to residents this year, and next if still required. The whole country is hurting, and I can't imagine anyone who is in a harder pickle than outfitters.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am not saying shut down the outfitting industry, I am saying limit the species and locations that there are allocations for. If a resident can hunt that animal in that location without having to draw, then let outfitters do the same. If a resident has to draw a tag, then no allocations for that animal, in that location. Saskatchewan is the example that comes to mind as being close to this.

That would essentially shut down the outfitting industry, the access to quality game without having to draw a tag is what brings in clients to Alberta.

Whitetails are a prime example. In 1990 you could book a rifle whitetail hunt in central Alberta (the world hot spot for big bucks) for $3000-3500, today you can book that same hunt anywhere in Alberta for $5000 or less.

Moose in 1990 was a $2500-3000 hunt, now they’re close to $10,000. Because they have access to tags where others don’t.

Limiting outfitters in Alberta to non draw animals would essentially cripple the industry other then sheep.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Exactly!

I acknowledge that, you seem have a hard time coming to terms with it.

You are failing to see the shoe on the other foot. Remember, a border is an imaginary line drawn in the sand. You get drawn for a tag, travel across the province and shoot a pronghorn that the local farmers can’t shoot. Do you think the farmer cares if you pay to stay in a hotel? I doubt it. Do you think they care you spend money in a restaurant there? I doubt that too, even though you are contributing to the local economy. As a matter of fact, you are not bringing any money into the Canadian economy that isn’t already here. When an American does the same thing they are actually bringing money into the Canadian economy, which in the grand scheme of things is more beneficial to all Canadians, and I would venture to say especially the non hunting portion of our population.

You have a very narrow minded self serving view of the hunting industry. I get it, I hate the fact that I can’t buy a general bull moose tag for archery anymore, it’s upsetting but it’s the way it is. I also hate the fact I have to pay a buck a liter for gas but someone has to pay for the guys making $70/hr that extract it from the earth.

You made your living off the land, you should understand others have the right to do the same thing.

And if I don't draw a tag and go to the USA to hunt a pronghorn, or I go for a warm winter vacation in a foreign country instead, I take my money out of Canada, which offsets what the American hunter brings into Canada.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by sns2

Some of you guides/outfitters have a hard time comprehending English it seems.

A few of you have made the point that AO is anti-outfitter. Well, I have not read a single post that I can recall where anyone is against you earning your living in the way you have chosen. Heck, lots of people would love to try what you do, and envy you for taking the risks you did to do something you enjoyed.
I don't because I know that it is a job just like any other, and not as romantic as many make it out to be. Let's face it, you are working when we are hunting. I'd also say most feel as badly for you as they do for people in the tourism industry who are up against it.

What we have consistently spoken out against is:

1) Non residents being able to access tags each year that residents have to wait in excess of a decade for. Most of us feel that outfitting should be limited to tags that can be bought over the counter. Residents should not have a harder time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents. Fairly straightforward.

2) APOS managing the industry. In every walk of life there are bad apples. Outfitting is no different. And there is a helluva pile of pressure on guides and outfitters to produce, which invariably leads to shenanigans. But the oversight given by this organization is preposterous. Convicted poachers allowed to be on the executive. Huh? Wildlife is a natural resource owned by the citizens of this province, and thus all hunting opportunities should be run by the province as well. Why do outfitters, when they darn well know how unpopular APOS is with most hunters who are aware of the issues, not lobby for a better, more transparent structure?

Feel free to address these two concerns which are stated on this forum by many, over and over and over.

And with that, I’m out.

Not looking to get another 30 day banning because my views don’t align with the anti outfitting mod.

Have a good day folks !

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

That would essentially shut down the outfitting industry, the access to quality game without having to draw a tag is what brings in clients to Alberta.

Whitetails are a prime example. In 1990 you could book a rifle whitetail hunt in central Alberta (the world hot spot for big bucks) for $3000-3500, today you can book that same hunt anywhere in Alberta for $5000 or less.

Moose in 1990 was a $2500-3000 hunt, now they’re close to $10,000. Because they have access to tags where others don’t.

Limiting outfitters in Alberta to non draw animals would essentially cripple the industry other then sheep.

Somehow Saskatchewan has made a go of it.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

That would essentially shut down the outfitting industry, the access to quality game without having to draw a tag is what brings in clients to Alberta.

Whitetails are a prime example. In 1990 you could book a rifle whitetail hunt in central Alberta (the world hot spot for big bucks) for $3000-3500, today you can book that same hunt anywhere in Alberta for $5000 or less.

Moose in 1990 was a $2500-3000 hunt, now they’re close to $10,000. Because they have access to tags where others don’t.

Limiting outfitters in Alberta to non draw animals would essentially cripple the industry other then sheep.

And yet Saskatchewan still has an outfitting industry.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There are millions of people who think the oil industry in western Canada isn’t needed either, that other industries will take up the slack so just let it die.

To the outfitters in Alberta that $100 million dollar industry means feeding their families and employees who feed their families, even if it means nothing to you !

So why is the industry that feeds your family more important then the industry that feeds their family?

This is what greed looks like, and it’s running rampant in our society today.

And what about those that want to make a buck off of resources that belong to the residents of Alberta. Greed lol, have a look in the mirror bud.

[sask/alta boy]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I am always amused when those that have a vested interest in the outfitting business name call those that have a different opinion. Cheap, suck at life, unsuccessful, jealous, selfish, did I miss any?

right on the money. oops

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

And what about those that want to make a buck off of resources that belong to the residents of Alberta. Greed lol, have a look in the mirror bud.

Wildlife, forestry, oil and gas, and mining all belong to the crown and leases are paid to extract and utilize them. The money goes to run the province/country.

Greed is somebody looking out for themselves over others, and I have no problem looking myself in the mirror each day 👍

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Wildlife, forestry, oil and gas, and mining all belong to the crown and leases are paid to extract and utilize them. The money goes to run the province/country.

Greed is somebody looking out for themselves over others, and I have no problem looking myself in the mirror each day 👍

I guess you are not doing that. More like a public service you are offering, you are a true saint.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

That would essentially shut down the outfitting industry, the access to quality game without having to draw a tag is what brings in clients to Alberta.

Whitetails are a prime example. In 1990 you could book a rifle whitetail hunt in central Alberta (the world hot spot for big bucks) for $3000-3500, today you can book that same hunt anywhere in Alberta for $5000 or less.

Moose in 1990 was a $2500-3000 hunt, now they’re close to $10,000. Because they have access to tags where others don’t.

Limiting outfitters in Alberta to non draw animals would essentially cripple the industry other then sheep.

Bolded is nonsense. And you know it.
If all the outfitter allocations were eliminated tomorrow, and in it's place a certain percentage of all the draw tags (moose, antelope, mule deer etc.), were designated as non-resident only (most states use this system, and set the NR draws at about 5%), the outfitting "industry" in Alberta would be just fine. What would happen is the nonresident would be free to hire the outfitter of his/her choosing, and the outfitters would have to get out and hustle for business, and produce results. The good ones would shine, and do quite well financially. The others would quickly weed themselves out, and go back to driving garbage trucks. The entire concept of outfitter owned allocations is pure poison, and if it were scrapped (along with a complete overhaul of APOS - more poison) and we went to system like I've described, you'd see a whole lot less resentment shown towards outfitters (and nonresidents), and the "industry".

[KyleSS]

Originally Posted by sns2

1) Non residents being able to access tags each year that residents have to wait in excess of a decade for. Most of us feel that outfitting should be limited to tags that can be bought over the counter. Residents should not have a harder time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents. Fairly straightforward.

2) APOS managing the industry. In every walk of life there are bad apples. Outfitting is no different. And there is a helluva pile of pressure on guides and outfitters to produce, which invariably leads to shenanigans. But the oversight given by this organization is preposterous. Convicted poachers allowed to be on the executive. Huh? Wildlife is a natural resource owned by the citizens of this province, and thus all hunting opportunities should be run by the province as well. Why do outfitters, when they darn well know how unpopular APOS is with most hunters who are aware of the issues, not lobby for a better, more transparent structure?

Feel free to address these two concerns which are stated on this forum by many, over and over and over.

Here you go

1) Residents now have an easier time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents since non residents can not enter our country. If they were able to enter our country, then residents would have the exact same opportunity as non residents when it come to accessing outfitter allocations. If you and everyone else on here actually want more opportunity for hunting (and not just complaining about how its not fair) then I suggest you lobby the government that these changes stay in place longer than 2 years.

2) I do agree the there needs to be changes for outfitters with wildlife convictions. Now I am not speaking on behalf of the outfitters by any means here but this is my take. Why should they lobby for a different structure? How is all that time, effort, and money going to benefit them? If I got this straight, you want Outfitters to lobby for a new structure to an organization that you want to see either changed or dismantled? Hmmm yupp, that sounds like a good use of outfitter time, energy and money. Give your head a shake. Why don't you start lobbying for that change if you want it so bad?

[sns2]

Originally Posted by KyleSS

Here you go

1) Residents now have an easier time accessing hunting opportunities than non residents since non residents can not enter our country. If they were able to enter our country, then residents would have the exact same opportunity as non residents when it come to accessing outfitter allocations. If you and everyone else on here actually want more opportunity for hunting (and not just complaining about how its not fair) then I suggest you lobby the government that these changes stay in place longer than 2 years.

2) I do agree the there needs to be changes for outfitters with wildlife convictions. Now I am not speaking on behalf of the outfitters by any means here but this is my take. Why should they lobby for a different structure? How is all that time, effort, and money going to benefit them? If I got this straight, you want Outfitters to lobby for a new structure to an organization that you want to see either changed or dismantled? Hmmm yupp, that sounds like a good use of outfitter time, energy and money. Give your head a shake. Why don't you start lobbying for that change if you want it so bad?

Interesting, you are not even an outfitter. At least when Torkdiesel talks, we know he has significant skin in the game. You may also, but maybe you started guiding last year part time for a few weeks. I don't know, but since you are getting all high and mighty, why not tell us your experience. I'm sure a few readers may be interested.

Let me address your points that I have bolded...

1) We want fair opportunity, and if there is more then great, but fair is the issue. Non residents being able to buy a tag when Albertans have to wait years is not fair. Please convince us otherwise.

2) Outfitters should lobby for a different structure because the majority of hunters paint them all with the same brush when we read of laws being broken, but the guilty parties being back in business with what in many cases seems like a slap on the wrist. This taints the entire industry in terms of public perception. Another reason they should lobby for changes is that they have possibly the single largest poacher in this province's history sitting on the Executive which I am guessing has a hand in meting out punishments for offenders. Kind like having an alcoholic in charge of a liquor store. As for your your comment about time, money, energy etc... last time I checked it takes no money, and only a few minutes to pick up the phone or write an email.

[bootstrap]

If its public land the outfitter is using just because its his favorite spot doesn't mean it cant be anyone elses. ive hunted public land I found by looking at maps and talking to local people and had outfitters mad at me for being in "their" spot.