Sad day in the praries

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

How does heavy snowfall levels, successive thaw/freeze cycles and bitter cold creating a catastrophic event have anything to do with management?

Apparently you dont know whats been going on.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Apparently you dont know whats been going on.

That explains a lot.

[cacty]

Shut it down if need be. I would rather wait 15 yrs for a tag if it means the species surviving or, god willing, flourishing. We can always go farther South and buy a hunt.

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

How does heavy snowfall levels, successive thaw/freeze cycles and bitter cold creating a catastrophic event have anything to do with management?

You have to realize that packhuntr wakes up in the morning and criticizes the government for "mismanagement" right off the bat.

As you can see he didn't try to answer your question at all.



It is not very easy to close and then open seasons. It is far easier to reduce the number of permits to one per zone.

I am another in a position where I could draw an antelope permit in 2011 and may now 999 again. I'll talk to the people in F&W first though.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by duffy4

You have to realize that packhuntr wakes up in the morning and criticizes the government for "mismanagement" right off the bat.

As you can see he didn't try to answer your question at all.

I noticed that since I didn't agree with him I know absolutely nothing, and will continue to know nothing since he is short on enlightenment.

Originally Posted by duffy4

It is not very easy to close and then open seasons. It is far easier to reduce the number of permits to one per zone.

Absolutely. Closing the season completely would be a bad thing.

[packhuntr]

Jeez Duffy, all I did was state a fact, very quietly and politely at that, and here you come a rambling in again LOL. I see no need to get into this again on here, in the past it fell to the deaf and blind, and here we are yet again, except now the worst has happened. Does anyone out there have any regrets??? I might think so. Shes a hell of a wreck now, and there are PEOPLE that should be held accountable for the wreck of an antelope herd that remains in this province. Have a normal day.

[qballs]

Pack,
Not sure where you are going with your posts - "Things are happening", "It's a wreck", "Mismanagement", throwing around buzzwords and random phrases makes it very confusing.
Explaining with particulars is always a good idea. Not everyone here can read your mind, or have special insights into what is, or has gone on.....

[packhuntr]

I wouldnt worry too much about it qballs. Theres a whole bunch of us down here in the south beating our heads over the level of incompetence consistently displayed in this province, but its all good, we need to just leave it all in the capable hands of the professionals. If you want to hear how good of a job has been done, call some biologists, they will tell you. After your done hearing that b.s. take some advise from me, just take what you can while its here to be had.

[slough shark]

I had suspected this as if there is any issues with the deep snow the antelope are always the first ones to hit, hopefully this chinook melts a pile of snow and gives them a chance. If you're in area or able to get out go and do some damage on the yotes please do so, if there is more snow the deer are going to be hit a fair bit too. I sure hope that they don't close the season just drastically reduce permits as once a season is closed often times it takes them a long time to reopen. Hopefully f&w also adjusts the deer permits and stops with the cwd culling foolishness, if there was a diseased and weak deer this winter did them in.

[FCLightning]

What an explanation. I still don't see what an unusually harsh winter has to do with management of the antelope. Were there too many of them for the available resources?

[hal53]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

What an explanation. I still don't see what an unusually harsh winter has to do with management of the antelope. Were there too many of them for the available resources?

There are previous threads here where Pack firmly believes that the Antelope herd has been terribly mis-managed....right or wrong, I don't know, but he lives there and sees it everyday. One thing you cannot deny is that he has a passion for wildlife. He stated quite a few times that one bad winter would decimate the herd for years....

[ishootbambi]

i may not be near as passionate about stinkylope, but i live here too. what i see working out there every day is that the goats are grouped up in huge herds. by that fact, when winterkill occurs, the bodies tend to pile up in a fairly concentrated area. this can lead one to believe that things may be worse than they are. im not saying that it isnt a bad situation, but for some animals to succumb to the prairie cold is not unusual. it is not unusual to find the dead in groups like what is reported. today, the weather is in the upper teens and snow is melting rapidly, so the animals are getting some reprieve. before it is determined that the entire herd is collapsing, it might be wise to take another look in a few weeks to see what numbers look like. last year, the prehunt herd was estimated at around 20000. it will be a while before this years numbers are estimated, and until then im not getting swept up in the emotion.

[packhuntr]

It will be even more so intersting to see just how many fawns were aborted. Lets hope it wasnt severe enough for a long enough period to abort and lose another entire generation. 70% herd loss in 2 years is enough, after this winter it might be very sad. Hey SRD and ACA, wanna gamble again on how next winter will be, or are we gonna finally begin some proactive management? Might be tough to rebuild a herd with whats left, the easy way is to fumble it all again, tell ourselves we're right and proceed to fill everyones freezers with whats left next year. I got a crisp 100 dollar bill says they say theres not as much of a problem as everyone thinks LOL!

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

It will be even more so intersting to see just how many fawns were aborted. !

last years fawn crop was nearly nonexistant. i dont know if it was the winter that did it, or the brutal wet spring. all i can say for sure is that is 4 year olds have the best horns, then the 2014 season will be pretty dismal. notonly that, with an entire generation missing, losing a second successive one would indeed be pretty awful for the future of the species for a decade or so.

[packhuntr]

Your right Bambi, but the real issue is what we will have for a herd in the spring after entering this winter with only 30% of 2 years ago's herd. We sustained a large die off 2 years ago, last winter took 75% of what was left, leaving us with only 30% of our herd, the spring caused an entire generation kill due to pneumonia with the fawns, we had effectively lost 5 generations of antelope up into last year, and now we have realized everyones worst nightmare. There are more antelope being killed by starvation, predation and vehicular accidents that most people could even imagine. Leave the urban setting where coyotes have been controlled to the point of there being none, and you will see exactly what predators are capable of when they are starving. All coyotes have turned big game hunter or they are already dead. Cant wrong them for that, but I cant even describe to you how many antelope are being killed, by far the worst Ive ever seen. My small herd at work was 30 strong going into the winter, I watched daily as the carcases piled up, the antelope couldnt get away and would watch as coyotes would single one off and take it down within yards of the herd. This herd is now at just under 10 antelope. The coyotes were killing on average an antelope a night. Starvation has been drastic. This is the way it has been across antelope range all over Alberta. The deer are dropping on our rivers down here like flies as well. Again, extreme circumstances. Coyotes are killing 1-2 per night in every herd in the affected areas. I will be surprised if we have 15% of our antelope left come this spring, from now 3 years of die offs. If the herd has pretty much aborted, it will only compound the issue for the future. Add in the past few years mismanagement, and you have a world class wreck. I wonder if we should keep killing them at 350 antelope bucks per WMU, SRD and ACA. Try that this year boys and you might not like the response.

[gitrdun]

I'm happy to report that here on the west side of HWY2 in 310, the deer are doing just fine, both mulies and WT. The 'yote hunting has been pretty scarces. The 'yotes I've seen are pretty healthy and not mangy. For sure, the snow drifts are deep, but the deer seem OK. Just another few miles east across the HWY2, towards Blackie, my friend reports a lot of mangy "yotes and deer kills. We're only a few miles away, what a difference only a few miles makes. It's not unusual for me to see a heard of 60 or more deer happy as pigs to feed on my neighbour's round bails.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Your right Bambi, but the real issue is what we will have for a herd in the spring after entering this winter with only 30% of 2 years ago's herd. We sustained a large die off 2 years ago, last winter took 75% of what was left, leaving us with only 30% of our herd, the spring caused an entire generation kill due to pneumonia with the fawns, we had effectively lost 5 generations of antelope up into last year, and now we have realized everyones worst nightmare. There are more antelope being killed by starvation, predation and vehicular accidents that most people could even imagine. Leave the urban setting where coyotes have been controlled to the point of there being none, and you will see exactly what predators are capable of when they are starving. All coyotes have turned big game hunter or they are already dead. Cant wrong them for that, but I cant even describe to you how many antelope are being killed, by far the worst Ive ever seen. My small herd at work was 30 strong going into the winter, I watched daily as the carcases piled up, the antelope couldnt get away and would watch as coyotes would single one off and take it down within yards of the herd. This herd is now at just under 10 antelope. The coyotes were killing on average an antelope a night. Starvation has been drastic. This is the way it has been across antelope range all over Alberta. The deer are dropping on our rivers down here like flies as well. Again, extreme circumstances. Coyotes are killing 1-2 per night in every herd in the affected areas. I will be surprised if we have 15% of our antelope left come this spring, from now 3 years of die offs. If the herd has pretty much aborted, it will only compound the issue for the future. Add in the past few years mismanagement, and you have a world class wreck. I wonder if we should keep killing them at 350 antelope bucks per WMU, SRD and ACA. Try that this year boys and you might not like the response.

Twice this winter I watched coyotes chase antelope.I even saw a coyote running with an antelope's leg at work the other day,however that antelope was a road kill.I'm seeing hundreds still alive east of medicine hat,however buddy who went north of medicine hat,saw otherwise.

I agree with you that there are Major Wildlife managment issue's in our province for antelope aswell as with some other big game species.JMO!

[59whiskers]

Seen lots of coyotes last week driving up to Vermillion from Brooks and back last weekend along Hwy 36. With the deep crusted snow in the Brooks area the antelope will be easy pickings for the coyotes. Hope a chinook will last long enough to get rid of the crusted snow before it snows again. Seen huge die offs in the past.

[fat cat]

packhunter I live in the North, and we go through this every year, We can help.....but no one will let us......wait until they intruduce wolves down here, to help out .....

[vantheman]

Here in Calgary the winter has seemed fairly average/mild. I’m discouraged to learn that it s been so rough! How were things in the Brooks area? Will the already dwindling pheasant population take another hit?

[Samhael]

Wolves in 360 and surrounding zones are dining on venison and elk, deep snow, hard crust on top, sharp hooves have no chance

The bounty on wolves shouldbe double, the wolf population in this area seems to have doubled or tripled.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Your right Bambi, but the real issue is what we will have for a herd in the spring after entering this winter with only 30% of 2 years ago's herd. We sustained a large die off 2 years ago, last winter took 75% of what was left, leaving us with only 30% of our herd, the spring caused an entire generation kill due to pneumonia with the fawns, we had effectively lost 5 generations of antelope up into last year, and now we have realized everyones worst nightmare. There are more antelope being killed by starvation, predation and vehicular accidents that most people could even imagine. Leave the urban setting where coyotes have been controlled to the point of there being none, and you will see exactly what predators are capable of when they are starving. All coyotes have turned big game hunter or they are already dead. Cant wrong them for that, but I cant even describe to you how many antelope are being killed, by far the worst Ive ever seen. My small herd at work was 30 strong going into the winter, I watched daily as the carcases piled up, the antelope couldnt get away and would watch as coyotes would single one off and take it down within yards of the herd. This herd is now at just under 10 antelope. The coyotes were killing on average an antelope a night. Starvation has been drastic. This is the way it has been across antelope range all over Alberta. The deer are dropping on our rivers down here like flies as well. Again, extreme circumstances. Coyotes are killing 1-2 per night in every herd in the affected areas. I will be surprised if we have 15% of our antelope left come this spring, from now 3 years of die offs. If the herd has pretty much aborted, it will only compound the issue for the future. Add in the past few years mismanagement, and you have a world class wreck. I wonder if we should keep killing them at 350 antelope bucks per WMU, SRD and ACA. Try that this year boys and you might not like the response.

You've been asked a few times what you mean by mismanagement and squirted the issue so I'm going to guess you want less animals killed by hunters? I'm guessing if numbers started lower this year that the remaining would have had a better shot at survival. There's only so much food that's easy to get at and then the animals are at the mercy of the weather. Larger numbers would not help in this situation. Even with the coyote problem they don't start bothering them until they are in trouble. Weather cannot be managed.

[packhuntr]

Pikergolf, you are wrong, apparently you need to take a look around. When is the last time you saw our prairie wintered up ungulates in heavy competition for feed? Where these antelope winter, feed is not an issue, the herds move. The more animals the better as snow removal is the key. Why do you think those herds of antelope followed the massive herds of bison and elk years ago? Sure wasnt for the company. You say taking less antelope into a severe winter would be better hey? Well then what exactly is happening right now? If our game managers had been a little bit more proactive with thier management strategy and swayed abit away from gross overharvest, we might have taken a more stable herd into these hard winters and there might be something left of an antelope herd after 3 hard winters. As far as management issues, I dont think myself or anyone else needs to sit on here for hours on end going back and forth with a bunch of guys that would know this stuff themselves if they gave two sh*ts. And really, thats the entire problem, all guys care about is that hey, were about to get drawn man, wtf, its my turn. Well if guys gave a hoot, they might look out thier pickup windows once in a while and understand that yup, theres some real problems, and guess what, it aint mother nature. Guys want to get drawn every 4 or 5 years, the more the better, and why, it isnt a meat hunt, why not wait afew more years and be satisfied that there WILL BE not just a herd of antelope for you but a healthy herd. Man, Im going on now and its f-in crazy. Keep cooking up your crap, Im not dogging anything and neither is anyone else that gives a sh*t, its guys that dont care to look around themselves until they want to go kill something, that are dogging the issues.

[pikergolf]

Well thanks for enlightening me, here I thought it was the bad weather.

[cacty]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Pikergolf, you are wrong, apparently you need to take a look around. When is the last time you saw our prairie wintered up ungulates in heavy competition for feed? Where these antelope winter, feed is not an issue, the herds move. The more animals the better as snow removal is the key. Why do you think those herds of antelope followed the massive herds of bison and elk years ago? Sure wasnt for the company. You say taking less antelope into a severe winter would be better hey? Well then what exactly is happening right now? If our game managers had been a little bit more proactive with thier management strategy and swayed abit away from gross overharvest, we might have taken a more stable herd into these hard winters and there might be something left of an antelope herd after 3 hard winters. As far as management issues, I dont think myself or anyone else needs to sit on here for hours on end going back and forth with a bunch of guys that would know this stuff themselves if they gave two sh*ts. And really, thats the entire problem, all guys care about is that hey, were about to get drawn man, wtf, its my turn. Well if guys gave a hoot, they might look out thier pickup windows once in a while and understand that yup, theres some real problems, and guess what, it aint mother nature. Guys want to get drawn every 4 or 5 years, the more the better, and why, it isnt a meat hunt, why not wait afew more years and be satisfied that there WILL BE not just a herd of antelope for you but a healthy herd. Man, Im going on now and its f-in crazy. Keep cooking up your crap, Im not dogging anything and neither is anyone else that gives a sh*t, its guys that dont care to look around themselves until they want to go kill something, that are dogging the issues.

Makes sense to me.

[wildlifebio]

It’s sad to hear about the tough conditions pronghorn are facing in southern Alberta. I guess that is the sad reality for pronghorn and other ungulates living in northern climates. However, historical information shows pronghorn populations in Alberta do tend to fluctuate because this is the northern extent of their range and the species is not well adapted to cope with high snow levels and cold temperature. Despite this, there seems to be some varying (and very passionate) opinions on the state of pronghorn in Alberta and what the impact of this winter and these deaths will have on long-term population levels and health, so I wanted to provide some information on pronghorn ecology and management in Alberta as there seems to be a little bit of mis-information being circulated within this thread.

Specifically, it should be noted that ACA is not responsible for setting tag numbers for pronghorn or any other species for that matter. ACA does cooperate with SRD in conducting aerial ungulate surveys and population counts, but this data is used solely by SRD for allocating tags as they are the managing agency. Unfortunately, in reality allocation of tags is not always based on population numbers alone, as there are often also social and political pressures influencing game management.

Furthermore, aerial survey data shows pronghorn densities and doe/fawn ratios to be relatively stable over the past few years. http://www.ab-conservation.com/go/de...20antelope.pdf
Granted there are several issues and assumptions of aerial survey data, this data still makes me question where estimated percentages such as 75% dieoff, 30% of our herd, and 15% survival come from. Based on these #s if populations were 20,000 (as has been suggested) that would leave only 3000 animals left in the province?

I’m also not clear on how this perceived (or real) mis-management of pronghorn herds has occurred or is occurring in southern Alberta (and its not because I don’t give a sh*t), but I think solely blaming the government for the state of pronghorn populations in the province is misguided as there are several bigger issues that will have greater influence on the long-term health of Alberta pronghorn populations then the harvest of a couple hundred trophy pronghorn. Perhaps, non-trophy numbers could be reduced, but draw statistics from last year show only 566 tags were given out, which I guess depending on your opinion 566 may or may not be a large proportion of the population. However, in reality this harvest likely only affects the population in the short-term, whereas the real concern regarding the long term health of pronghorn populations is the continued loss of native grassland (which pronghorn require), increased human disturbance in pronghorn range, rising predator numbers, and increased barriers to migration. Current research by the ACA, SRD, University of Calgary, and other partners is showing pronghorn habitat selection in Alberta is very complex and animals in most cases show a definite affinity to native grasslands. Furthermore, these animals are migrating and travelling much greater distances then originally thought and that there are numerous potential barriers to these migrations. This means may mean pronghorn are having difficulty accessing traditional winter ranges or finding areas of low snow cover/high forage availability for overwintering, which may make them even more susceptible to winter-kill than in the past. Perhaps if we sportsmen and wildlife mangers keep working at increasing (or at least maintaining) available habitat and reducing migration barriers winter range quality and access would be improved and could potentially reduce severe winter mortality events in the future. On a side note, because of some of the aforementioned issues the state of Wyoming has initiated development of some wildlife underpasses to aid in pronghorn movement! http://transportationnation.org/2010...way-crossings/
Perhaps we need some of these across highway 1! 

I’ve rambled on enough, but for those interested there is some great information on pronghorn ecology and historical information about Alberta’s pronghorn population found in the Pronghorn Management Plan available at: http://srd.alberta.ca/ManagingProgra...nPronghorn.pdf

And:
www.albertapronghorn.com

Anyways, that’s just my humble opinion. Here’s to hoping conditions improve as spring nears and pronghorn thrive in Alberta for many more years!

[packhuntr]

566 tags hey...? So which AMA or two are you talking about wildlife bio??

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

566 tags hey...? So which AMA or two are you talking about wildlife bio??

I was in a hurry and misread this morning. I now see you said 566 doe tags, but what of your "couple hundred trophy tags"? Is that correct? You may want to have a look at some numbers, dont be scared to go back afew years. Then maybe explain to me why it is that we need to decimate certain zones while others are held at low tag counts. Is that sound management, or job justification? If you look at the numbers you will see exactly what Im talking about. You guys build them up and knock them down, these zones/ama's are in constant wave motion, except now a series of bad winters/springs hit while you guys had most everything low.

[gunslinger]

I was down on two differetn hunts by the base last year and the herds seemed good, i am in no way even remotely up to snuff on the southern zones other than thats alot of tags in the extreme southern zones and am reading closely but sorry for my ignorance pack but what the heck does ACA and AMA stand for i only belong to one ama and it doestn involve hunting.

[artie]

Back in the seventies guys used to come around with grey hound dogs. They would let the dogs out chase the coyote and one in the pack was the coyote killer. That took care of the coyote problem. I was wondering why you do not see that anymore or did the do gooders run them out.