Tipping your guide and camp cook???

[JonBoy]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Maybe the tips should be worked into the hunt price. After the hunt the outfitter can talk to the client and find out if the client was satisfied with the experience and if not, what parts were not satisfying. After that the outfitter can choose to distribute the money to appropriate places or choose to return a portion to the client if he had an unsatisfactory experience? Just a thought.

That's what I said earlier, but they're too focused on the idea that I'm a jerk for not wanting to pay "extra" for a tip to read it... Build the "tip" into the hunt and just let me pay and be done with it, without having to think about how much someone is worth.

A person's wage should be between them and their employer (the outfitter, in this case). The hunter's agreement is with the outfitter, not the guide, so why is the guide now looking to the hunter for money? Let the outfitter pay the hunter and combine it into his hunt costs/charges.

[coreya3212]

I would be yes. I am assuming I hired the outfitter for a hunt and he pairs me with a guide at a camp with the cook etc. whoever I booked with and is the boss, I would have no problem stating who deserves a tip and if they didn't and why. I would think the outfitter would want to know that anyway. I would see no reason to speak to the employee, cook or guide, and explain why they sucked or were great. Let their boss deal with staff. If wanted to add to either a tip, I would slip them some cash on my own.

The envelope thing I don't know. I would expect the outfitter to pull twenty percent from the envelopes and blame it on the cheap hunters... I spoke that could happen with the above scenario as well. One would need to be confident that the outfitter actually lets the cash flow down. Then it would be taxed too, so that would suck for everyone... It's a tough question for sure all the way around.

I should also point out I am strongly considering eliminating any and all gratuity's once the minimum wage escalation starts. In October I think. So I may not be the best gauge on this subject.

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by JonBoy

That's what I said earlier, but they're too focused on the idea that I'm a jerk for not wanting to pay "extra" for a tip to read it... Build the "tip" into the hunt and just let me pay and be done with it, without having to think about how much someone is worth.

A person's wage should be between them and their employer (the outfitter, in this case). The hunter's agreement is with the outfitter, not the guide, so why is the guide now looking to the hunter for money? Let the outfitter pay the hunter and combine it into his hunt costs/charges.

Actually it has the twist of knowing the amount for gratuity and recouping undeserved gratuity... So not what you said, but similar.

[Redfrog]

I don't like the idea of anonymous envelopes. How would you know who the good guys were and who were the cheap pr***

BTW I get some great tips and some guys tip zero. They all get the best hunt I can provide, because that's what they pay for.

Having said that, I have terminated a couple hunts for safety or ethics issues.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by JonBoy

That's what I said earlier, but they're too focused on the idea that I'm a jerk for not wanting to pay "extra" for a tip to read it... Build the "tip" into the hunt and just let me pay and be done with it, without having to think about how much someone is worth.

A person's wage should be between them and their employer (the outfitter, in this case). The hunter's agreement is with the outfitter, not the guide, so why is the guide now looking to the hunter for money? Let the outfitter pay the hunter and combine it into his hunt costs/charges.

I like that way of thinking.

[Opa]

Why should I, having purchased a hunt be EXPECTED to spin extra cash for something that I have already paid for??? I guess that by not acceding to their expectations I am a cheap arsehole, not them being the greedy AH's expecting more than the contracted price!!! Screw them and their EXPECTED tip for doing the job that they were contracted to do. Too many of them could not find their arse with a flashlight & two hands, however they EXPECT you to pay them for your helping them find it.

Love outfitters & guides!!!!!!

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by Opa

Why should I, having purchased a hunt be EXPECTED to spin extra cash for something that I have already paid for??? I guess that by not acceding to their expectations I am a cheap arsehole, not them being the greedy AH's expecting more than the contracted price!!! Screw them and their EXPECTED tip for doing the job that they were contracted to do. Too many of them could not find their arse with a flashlight & two hands, however they EXPECT you to pay them for your helping them find it.

Love outfitters & guides!!!!!!

Screw them?? Be sure to state your feelings around tipping at start of the hunt.

[Opa]

Be sure that the total cost of the hunt is the dollar value that you paid for!!!! I am sure that if it wasn't, you sure as hell would never get a nickel back on your investment, so why pay extra for what was already paid for!!

[roper1]

My wife was a camp cook for 4 years. She was well-paid because she is an excellent cook who really likes people. Every year without fail her tips were bigger than her wages(wages CDN, tips USD). She preferred the hunter to cook method & had very few hunters not tip. She never found the tipping process awkward, & can't ever recall an embarrassing moment for her or a hunter.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Opa

Why should I, having purchased a hunt be EXPECTED to spin extra cash for something that I have already paid for??? I guess that by not acceding to their expectations I am a cheap arsehole, not them being the greedy AH's expecting more than the contracted price!!! Screw them and their EXPECTED tip for doing the job that they were contracted to do. Too many of them could not find their arse with a flashlight & two hands, however they EXPECT you to pay them for your helping them find it.

Love outfitters & guides!!!!!!

You are (or would be if you tipped I guess) tipping the guide or cook, not the outfitter. You booked a hunt with the outfitter, the guide does not set those prices. He does a job, works hard and like most other service industries the norm is they are tipped on performance.
Where did you encounter these **** poor guides you were saddled with for your outfitted hunts ? Sounds like you had a run of bad luck.

[JD848]

You go and eat out for supper at some half decent joint and you bring 3 people with you,lets say the tab is 350,thats booze and food for a 4 hour deal,i tip at least 50 bucks, I tip at Wendy's a couple bucks,my gunsmith I always buy em a bottle or give em a tip,no one is asking for a tip but i just feel it's a nice thing to do and it shows that i appreciate the work they do for me.

So why not show a little appreciation to your guide or cook if they work there butt off and they treat you with respect ,all a tip is is a token of your appreciation for there work ,specially if there very good at it.

Some guides are priceless if they pull it of and make your trip something to remember for life.Plus you never wasted your money with the outfitter if he has good guides that go that extra mile to make it happen for you.NO hunting trip is a sure thing,you can have the best guide around and sometimes it just wasn't meant to be,but i still tip my guide and cook.

And to OPA i don't think your a cheap ***** but your right on the second part you sound for sure like your an a///hole,and if your wondering why you had some bad hunting trips well go look in the mirror and you will see what i mean.I would refund your trip and stick that flashlight you no where any place any time,your not the first hammer head this guide has run into,there seems to be the odd one that you can never do enough for no matter what and i think your that odd one because 99 percent of people are very good folks.

[thumper]

Seriously? You tip at Wendys and you tip your gunsmith ?
Wow, I wish you wouldn't - you're just setting up expectations that the rest of us will have to deal with.

[scruffy]

In 1989 I was paying the outfitter, Dave Masson, of Kavija Safaris in Zimbabwe at the end of our safari to the Chete Concession .. It had been a great safari for tuskless and buffalo .. I had never, nor have I since, ever met so many colorful men on a hunting trip ..

After I had given Dave the full payment, he yanked my wallet out of my hands and looked inside .. 'You have no money left, ' he muttered.

'I'm heading back to Canada right now .. I don't need any,' was my answer to the obvious ..

'No, one always needs some money,' he said. And gave me back $500.

I gave him a cheque for the money. Back in Canada I sold my left handed 375 Sako to pay off some bills and to start saving for my next safari ..

I had tipped everyone in camp ... the trackers and skinners and the guide and even the camp manager ... all of whom had made my trip so memorable ...

I did the best that I could (tipping) with what I felt was right .. within a year the camp manager Neils Campbell and Dave Masson had both passed on ... way too young ...

What I am trying to say .. no one asked for a tip ... it was my choice ... and no regrets ...

A couple of more comments ... In 1977 I asked the guide what I should tip the two trackers/skinners ... If I remember correctly he said either $10 or $20. He went on to say that if I gave a man a $100 .. he would quit and go back to his village for a year ...

I also was told of two dudes from some big crime syndicate back in the '70's brought two brand new land cruisers (or was it landrovers?) on their safari even though the guides already had good personal hunting trucks .. At the end of the safari the guides were given the bakkies as tips ..

[Toe823]

I just back from a guided goat hunt in N BC...I had won this hunt, and the value was $10500...regardless of winning it or not my tip would be the same. I took $1500 for tip money and left it all there. The outfitter was also my guide. He was a very hard working honest good dude. I look at it like eating at a restaurant... Good service and food will get you a 15-20% gratuity. It was a family run operation, great food and lodge accommodation while not out on the horses hunting the goat. I was only there for four days and three nites total. I have no issue in tipping for a quality hard working hunt. My 2 cents..
Toe

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Maybe the tips should be worked into the hunt price. After the hunt the outfitter can talk to the client and find out if the client was satisfied with the experience and if not, what parts were not satisfying. After that the outfitter can choose to distribute the money to appropriate places or choose to return a portion to the client if he had an unsatisfactory experience? Just a thought.

I like to tip for good service, not necessarily based on success. I have had deep sea charter captains tell me that they do not want me tipping the mates, just to give to them and they will distribute the tip out. What happens is they don't give the mates anything and then tell the mates (after you've left) that you did not give any tip whatsoever. This is quite common. I always give the mates a tip in person, as they are usually the ones that are working their a**es off.

[SBE2]

Interesting discussions and points, couple of things to add or consider.
With dividing tips up as percentages in an envelope then letting the outfitter hand it out, I think there are some outfitters that will skim for sure and just put in on the hunter after he leaves. We aren't talking peanuts here. As for tacking the tip to the hunt price up front, well the cost of the hunts will go up obviously and some tips will be going to people who don't deserve them for sure. The whole pay tips up front then take back if not satisfied likely wouldn't work in my opinion, if guys feel awkward and uncomfortable come tip time they likely aren't going to be able to say , "no that guy gets none but this guy does".

I have no idea what allocation costs are and what the cost is initially and to renew them annually. If someone could list those that would be great, and a good indicator for some of those that think that the outfitters are making money hand over fist. Interested to hear what they are in AB, BC, Yukon, etc, Tork can you list some of these? One thing I have trouble with is when the argument of the outfitter keeps listing gear costs, once initial purchase in done for major purchases that cost is not there every year. Upkeep, maintenance, and some replacement for sure though.

Guiding is a chosen profession and rarely done for the money that is for sure. I have done about 20 guided trips, mostly for waterfowl, upland and fish, and some minor big game ones, nothing in the high end sheep or Africa stuff yet. Depending on length and total cost of trip, 7-10% sounds about close to what I've been giving, maybe a bit more if the trip really isn't that much. Lets say pheasants in South Dakota for 3 days at a family run place including lodge, $1500 US, likely tip close to 20-25% (so $300-375) because they are great people that work hard and really like the set up and run of the lodge with our group. I have guided before and definitely had hunters where all you could think was, "well, hope the tip is good at least, cuz these guys are painful to deal with." Pretty sure this argument will go on forever, lots of animosity towards outfitters for several reasons, some earned and some not. Cheers

[Cory1]

It it not the responsibility of the outfitter for setting you up with a competent guide?

If the guide is great a tip is in order, whether expected or not.

But what if the service is below what is expected? For a 10k + hunt, you bet I'd have high expectations. In the resturant industry the resturant (outfitter) will often comp. a meal based on poor service from a server/cook (guide). But never have I heard of an outfitter following this same mantra.

That said I'd rather pay a premium for a top notch outfit where I know I will have one of the top guides in the industry. (No offense to anyone here, who guides one or two trips a year because they enjoy it and have some experience out in the field), but I would pay 20% (whatever the cost might be to pay the guiding staff an appropriate compensation for thier talent) more to have a well known reputable guide/staff known for thier service and commitment to the client.

I feel it should be more of an onus on the guide to ensure top notch staff. A poor experience gets out fast and you can bet if an outfitter has reviews for poor staff I will be taking my business elsewhere.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by SBE2

Interesting discussions and points, couple of things to add or consider.
With dividing tips up as percentages in an envelope then letting the outfitter hand it out, I think there are some outfitters that will skim for sure and just put in on the hunter after he leaves. We aren't talking peanuts here. As for tacking the tip to the hunt price up front, well the cost of the hunts will go up obviously and some tips will be going to people who don't deserve them for sure. The whole pay tips up front then take back if not satisfied likely wouldn't work in my opinion, if guys feel awkward and uncomfortable come tip time they likely aren't going to be able to say , "no that guy gets none but this guy does".

I have no idea what allocation costs are and what the cost is initially and to renew them annually. If someone could list those that would be great, and a good indicator for some of those that think that the outfitters are making money hand over fist. Interested to hear what they are in AB, BC, Yukon, etc, Tork can you list some of these? One thing I have trouble with is when the argument of the outfitter keeps listing gear costs, once initial purchase in done for major purchases that cost is not there every year. Upkeep, maintenance, and some replacement for sure though.

Guiding is a chosen profession and rarely done for the money that is for sure. I have done about 20 guided trips, mostly for waterfowl, upland and fish, and some minor big game ones, nothing in the high end sheep or Africa stuff yet. Depending on length and total cost of trip, 7-10% sounds about close to what I've been giving, maybe a bit more if the trip really isn't that much. Lets say pheasants in South Dakota for 3 days at a family run place including lodge, $1500 US, likely tip close to 20-25% (so $300-375) because they are great people that work hard and really like the set up and run of the lodge with our group. I have guided before and definitely had hunters where all you could think was, "well, hope the tip is good at least, cuz these guys are painful to deal with." Pretty sure this argument will go on forever, lots of animosity towards outfitters for several reasons, some earned and some not. Cheers

Allocations in Alberta vary quite a bit depending on the area you're in. Peace country mule deer allocations are likely around the 20K mark. Whitetail are in the 14-20K range depending on which WMU. Good moose or Elk zones will be in the 16-24K range. Black bear are the cheapest to get into at $2500-6000 a piece. Cougar if one ever came up for sale would likely be in the 30K range with antelope I'm guessing not to far behind. Sheep are the big ticket allocations in Alberta. 100-125K a piece is what they have sold for lately.
In BC the "hobby" areas are in the 200-400K range. I call them hobby areas because the quotas are too low to make a living at. The better moose or southern big horn/elk areas are in the 500-800K range and the big northern stone sheep areas are 1.5-2.5M range kinda thing.
Once you get in the Yukon if one came up for sale it would be 1.5M minimum. The bigger ones would likely sell in the 2-3M range. NWT is close to the same but they rarely change hands.
Yearly renewals are cheap compared to purchase prices. One thing to remember also is banks will not lend on these allocations or areas. She's an all cash venture or vendor financing, and it's not that easy to pull 300-400K cash out of your jeans to get into it

[Torkdiesel]

I should also add that although JonBoy thinks 500K-1M in total hunts sold in a year is as easy as just having a few dozen hunters it would take a minimum of a million dollar investment to gross 500K a year out of a operation. To break the 1M mark in hunts booked per year it would likely be a 2 million dollar minimum initial investment, and as I said before there are very few doing that volume of hunts in Canada.

A little off topic for the tipping question but people were asking.

*note* please tip your guides folks, 95% of them work very hard for the clients

[JD848]

If the outfitter doesn't supply excellent guides good food or not,the client has the right to be very unhappy,plus some outfitters have gone belly up over bad guides,the guide and the client are a team and most clients are smart enough to know when there guide has not a clue on what he is doing,if that happens that's where my wallet stay's closed,but you can have the best guide and sometimes it is what it is and nature has it's own mind.

You can go to a top restaurant and still get a bad meal so a client has to be the his own judge on how much he should tip and always give it personally to your guide,it is no ones business how much of a tip is given ,this can cause problems in some camps,

Every one has a certain view of money and wealth so you go with what you feel good with ,if for some reason you can't tip or won't tip sit and have a good talk with your guide,he may just end up being your best friend because of your honesty,that's it.Money isn't everything a good strong hand shake and a straight look in the eye means a lot when you try your best.If your not the real deal as person ,you can keep your tip.Real good guides have very strong characters and they also expect to be treated with respect and that goes a long way from a tip,that guide will just spend that tip but won't forget your character for the rest of his life and that's how priceless friendships are made.

[diamonddave]

I read pretty much every post on this thread and it has been pretty enlightening. What I have decided from this thread, is that when the need arises that I require, or just flat out feel that I need a guided hunt/fishing trip, I know who I am going to call.

Torkdiesel and JD 848.

I honestly think that these two gents are a couple of the good ones, when it comes to the guiding industry.

Dave

[JD848]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I should also add that although JonBoy thinks 500K-1M in total hunts sold in a year is as easy as just having a few dozen hunters it would take a minimum of a million dollar investment to gross 500K a year out of a operation. To break the 1M mark in hunts booked per year it would likely be a 2 million dollar minimum initial investment, and as I said before there are very few doing that volume of hunts in Canada.

A little off topic for the tipping question but people were asking.

*note* please tip your guides folks, 95% of them work very hard for the clients

your being to nice on the count,with all the cost it may take up to 1.5 to gross 500k,some guys have there own planes,you blow a motor and there goes a big piece of that 500k,for every 100k you make by the time the smoke clears there's not a lot left over,there always something that catches you by surprise.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by diamonddave

I read pretty much every post on this thread and it has been pretty enlightening. What I have decided from this thread, is that when the need arises that I require, or just flat out feel that I need a guided hunt/fishing trip, I know who I am going to call.

Torkdiesel and JD 848.

I honestly think that these two gents are a couple of the good ones, when it comes to the guiding industry.

Dave

Thanks Diamond, that's mighty nice of you to say

[Plummerbutt]

A friend of mine was once tipped a T-Shirt for a successful $6500 whitetail hunt. But the shirt at least had a picture of the hunters face on it...you lnow, just as a reminder!

[Redfrog]

Two guys from Colorado hunted with me annually for about 7 or 8 years.
Never a tip. We had lots of fun and they killed lots of coyotes. The last year they came up they gave me a bottle of Jack Daniels. well not the whole bottle. It has about 6 oz. in it. the lid was duct taped in case it leaked, but in the end they decided they couldn't take it on the plane so they gave it to me.

[Arctic]

Just do as Tom Pigeon does, pass out autographed photos of yourself!

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Arctic

Just do as Tom Pigeon does, pass out autographed photos of yourself!

Who?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Arctic

Just do as Tom Pigeon does, pass out autographed photos of yourself!

Of his mug shot from his poaching conviction from the NWT ???