Stauffer, Raven, Prairie Creek Report

[candrukow]

I am looking to head to the Caroline country for fishing this Saturday. Anyone know what the fishing or water quality is like these days? Or have any other suggestions of rivers/creeks to fish? Still looking at learning the areas.

Thank You in advance.

[candrukow]

Figured I would post an update as to how I made out since I was provided with so much information off of my original thread. Not sure why fisherman have to be so tight lipped, not like I was asking for your honey holes lol

Checked out the North Raven river to start the day and saw some browns hanging out on the edges, but the tree growth was so grown in it made it hard to get a rod out so decided to move on.

Went up to Prairie creek and stopped at multiple locations. Had some luck, brought in 5 small brown trout and probably missed out on another 5. They were surfacing but not fully taking the dry fly all the time. Met another guy on the river that day that was fishing spinners. Said he missed out on a few bigger browns that were hiding out on logs.

From there tried out the Raven just on the south part of Caroline. Fairly tough area to fish again with the trees around. Lots of smaller fish were surfacing and in areas that the river had a rock bottom and water was clear, could see some bigger browns floating around the rocks.

New to the area so consisted of lots of exploring and not as much fishing as would have liked.

[JDK71]

just south of the 761 on the gravel to the bridge that's the raven fishing east and west there is not so many trees and bush just watch out for the farmer on the east side he thinks he owns the water .

[chinchaga07]

Originally Posted by JDK71

just south of the 761 on the gravel to the bridge that's the raven fishing east and west there is not so many trees and bush just watch out for the farmer on the east side he thinks he owns the water .

Hey may not own the water but as soon as you step out onto the bank he has an argument. Always better to get permission than ask for forgiveness.

[JDK71]

not with this guy he will tell you he owns the water but there is a lot of high water mark to walk down beside the water

[chinchaga07]

Originally Posted by JDK71

not with this guy he will tell you he owns the water but there is a lot of high water mark to walk down beside the water

I may be wrong but the "high water mark" deals with coastal waters that have a tide. The moment you walk on a bank in flowing water in Alberta you are trespassing if you have not gained permission.

I have fished the Raven for over 30 years without any issue with permission. I am quite familiar with the individual you are referring to. I know even if you are in the middle of the river he will have issue, but if you are on the bank he has an argument. I know of several landowners that will put notes on vehicles reminding them of permission to access lands surrounding that river if the anglers intention is to be walking the banks and they have policy in their favor.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by chinchaga07

I may be wrong but the "high water mark" deals with coastal waters that have a tide. The moment you walk on a bank in flowing water in Alberta you are trespassing if you have not gained permission.

I have fished the Raven for over 30 years without any issue with permission. I am quite familiar with the individual you are referring to. I know even if you are in the middle of the river he will have issue, but if you are on the bank he has an argument. I know of several landowners that will put notes on vehicles reminding them of permission to access lands surrounding that river if the anglers intention is to be walking the banks and they have policy in their favor.

Stauffer is one of few creeks in Alberta where landowners can argue rights to river bottom. Raven River is not and you are wrong regarding tidal waters.

[ecsuplander]

Can you explain why Stauffer is an exception to the water access rule?

[Don Andersen]

From Public Lands ACT


Title to beds and shores, etc.
2009 cA-26.8 s91(3)
3(1) Subject to subsection (2) but notwithstanding any other law, the title to the beds and shores of
(a) all permanent and naturally occurring bodies of water, and
(b) all naturally occurring rivers, streams, watercourses and lakes,
is vested in the Crown in right of Alberta and a grant or certificate of title made or issued before, on or after May 31, 1984 does not convey title to those beds or shores.

Clearly the Act does not define what shoreline may be. Also, that old chestnut about high water mark is also absent.

Regards,


Don

[Red Bullets]

This is and excerpt from a report prepared in 2002 but I think no laws have changed. http://healthyshorelines.com/media/T...d_the_Lake.pdf


The report is more about lake shores but does mention....

"Although the banks and shores of most rivers, streams and lakes are public land, and users can walk on bed and shore below the “high water mark” or “bank” without trespassing on adjacent land, users must ensure however, that they have legal access to these water bodies first. If public access across adjacent land (public land under disposition or private) is in question, the user should contact the land owner or lessee for permission to access the water body."

[scel]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Stauffer is one of few creeks in Alberta where landowners can argue rights to river bottom. Raven River is not and you are wrong regarding tidal waters.

I contacted Fish and Wildlife and directly asked about Dogpound and Stauffer. Standing in the river, you are legally not trespassing. Step on the bank and you are trespassing. They are permanent waterways governed under the Public Lands Act.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by scel

I contacted Fish and Wildlife and directly asked about Dogpound and Stauffer. Standing in the river, you are legally not trespassing. Step on the bank and you are trespassing. They are permanent waterways governed under the Public Lands Act.

Dogpound yes, Stauffer is privately owned. The other that comes to mind is Jumping Pound IIRC. I spoke to several F&W officers about this and they all said permission was necessary.

[chinchaga07]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Dogpound yes, Stauffer is privately owned. The other that comes to mind is Jumping Pound IIRC. I spoke to several F&W officers about this and they all said permission was necessary.

How does one privately own a river?? I understand the argument with Jumping pound as I believe that mineral rights play a role and it is dependent on how long the land has been owned and if they in fact have mineral rights. But I do not see how a river in Alberta can be privately owned as you allude to.

This topic has been around longer than I have been alive and people will agree to disagree. For me bottom line gain permission to the land the body of water flows through. No issues then.

[scel]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Dogpound yes, Stauffer is privately owned. The other that comes to mind is Jumping Pound IIRC. I spoke to several F&W officers about this and they all said permission was necessary.

You have misunderstood. Nobody owns mineral rights on dogpound or Stauffer. Both creeks being spring fed, the high watermark is the bank. Landowners own the bank. They do not own the river bed or water. Unless you walk 100% in the water via a public access point like a bridge , permission is nessesary. Both these creeks would be nearly impossible to fish without navigating the banks, so permission is necessary.

There are only a few remaining mineral rights claims remaining. Jumpingpound, indigenous land, and a few places in the north west of the province. There are also a few prohibited high water access areas by government installations.

[JDK71]

Originally Posted by chinchaga07

I may be wrong but the "high water mark" deals with coastal waters that have a tide. The moment you walk on a bank in flowing water in Alberta you are trespassing if you have not gained permission.

I have fished the Raven for over 30 years without any issue with permission. I am quite familiar with the individual you are referring to. I know even if you are in the middle of the river he will have issue, but if you are on the bank he has an argument. I know of several landowners that will put notes on vehicles reminding them of permission to access lands surrounding that river if the anglers intention is to be walking the banks and they have policy in their favor.

yep I think this is the same guy good luck fishing

[italk2u]

I think there might be some misunderstanding on the definition of "high water mark> By definition: "the level reached by the sea at high tide, or by a lake or river at its highest stand."
So at the point where , by example, the Stauffer had reached it's highest point at any given time, is the high water mark. So even if the water has since rescinded, you are still within the high water mark, even though you are on dry land.

[highwood]

Just ask permission, simple as that. Regardless of fenced sections, high water marks, etc, it is always in your best interest to inform the landowner you are there. Respect goes a long way.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by italk2u

I think there might be some misunderstanding on the definition of "high water mark> By definition: "the level reached by the sea at high tide, or by a lake or river at its highest stand."
So at the point where , by example, the Stauffer had reached it's highest point at any given time, is the high water mark. So even if the water has since rescinded, you are still within the high water mark, even though you are on dry land.

That's a pretty liberal interpretation of the high water mark. Downtown Calgary had the Bow River flow through it in 2013!

Best indicator of the normal high water mark is where terrestial vegetation begins,,, that is grasses, trees and other plants that typically cannot grow in aquatic environs.

[italk2u]

...and of course anything liberal in Alberta has to be wrong.

[fisho_badyk]

My pup got sprayed by a stinker tonight, but yer goddamn rights anything liberal stinks worse than that little black and white bastard...

[Bigwoodsman]

Well this thread went from a fishing report in west central Alberta to an argument on what constitutes a high water mark to them stinking liberals.

I think I’ll go check these waterways out myself!

BW

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

Well this thread went from a fishing report in west central Alberta to an argument on what constitutes a high water mark to them stinking liberals.

I think I’ll go check these waterways out myself!

BW

Yep. Typical AB post. Whiners rule the forums.

Good luck out there

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by scel

You have misunderstood. Nobody owns mineral rights on dogpound or Stauffer. Both creeks being spring fed, the high watermark is the bank. Landowners own the bank. They do not own the river bed or water. Unless you walk 100% in the water via a public access point like a bridge , permission is nessesary. Both these creeks would be nearly impossible to fish without navigating the banks, so permission is necessary.

There are only a few remaining mineral rights claims remaining. Jumpingpound, indigenous land, and a few places in the north west of the province. There are also a few prohibited high water access areas by government installations.

Pretty important point, I've never fished the Dogpound but on Stauffer or the Raven I have no idea how you get around using the bank unless you have no intention of getting anywhere near fish. Especially if you were walking downstream.

[chinchaga07]

Originally Posted by highwood

Just ask permission, simple as that. Regardless of fenced sections, high water marks, etc, it is always in your best interest to inform the landowner you are there. Respect goes a long way.

X2

[ddddd05]

How do you usually go about asking for permission if you would like to walk on the land beyond the high water mark?

[1 eye]

Knock on the door and ask.

[chinchaga07]

Originally Posted by ddddd05

How do you usually go about asking for permission if you would like to walk on the land beyond the high water mark?

The same way I go about it for hunting access. I let the landowner know my intentions. I let him know that I won't be walking through crops and that my intent is to fish. Some of my best hunting access has come from relationships garnered through asking for access to fish.

[scel]

Originally Posted by 1 eye

Knock on the door and ask.

A six-pack of beer may not hurt either.